springs and bendings

[panchito]

Hi,
My Tribute S-500 came with 2 springs installed on the tremolo and a spare one.
I noticed that when bending strings the tremolo tilts forward, which is a problem.
Would this be solved by installing the third spring ? If yes, is it easy to do it following
the manual of G&L or would it be wiser to bring the guitar to a pro ? Thanks for any help !

JA

[ieso]

If you want the vibrato bridge to work as a functional vibrato (in both directions the way the G&L units are designed to do) then that comes with the territory. If you don't want the bridge to move under increased string tension then block it off or get another guitar with a hardtail. Ever wonder why so many guys who play chicken-pickin' style country guitar use telecasters? I love my Legacy but I also have an ASAT for that very reason.

[Miles Smiles]

Hi,
Would this be solved by installing the third spring ?

No, it wouldn't. It would move less, but it wouldn't stop.

Beside the things ieso mentioned, you could learn to work against that movement by pressing you palm against the bridge.

[John_L]

A Hipshot tremsetter would help. This replaces one of the springs (normally the middle) and keeps the bridge in zero position. Have a look at Hipshots site and video here: http://store.hipshotproducts.com/cart.p ... tail&p=115

[panchito]

Thanks for your advices !!
So, the point is that a third spring would bring some improvement, which would be welcome.
Is it a task affordable for a noobie to set up the tremolo after installing a spring ?
The idea of controlling the the movement by pressing against the bridge seems to be beyond my playing skills for now.
I'll have a look to the Tremsetter.


JA

[MrRoundel]

Is it a task affordable for a noobie to set up the tremolo after installing a spring ?
JA

If you have any mechanical aptitude, and the proper tools, you should be able to set the guitar up, including getting the vibrato adjustment. There should be a copy of the setup instructions in the "Links" section, and perhaps links from the "F.A.Q." section. If you have an old Oral B toothbrush, the one that's 3/16" thick ("The toothbrush trick"), it works well for keeping the vibrato from caving in to the finish while making your adjustments.

[John_L]

If you don't have a toothbrush of the correct thickness you could try a playing cards that is what I always use.

[Boogie Bill]

If you don't have a toothbrush of the correct thickness you could try a playing cards that is what I always use.

I use the wooden sticks that come with the Haagen Daz chocolate almond bars. Two or three work perfectly.

Trouble is, I lose them. And then I have to buy more! Yum!

Bill

[Ledergeist]

Greetings Panchito...
I'm thinking you need to tighten the screws on the spring claw to counter the string tension. Properly set-up, the only time the DF bridge should be tilted is when you're using the wiggle stick. It should always re-center after a jab of the whammy bar. Easy DIY fix, take off the cover and it's all right there. FWIW, I'm using 3 springs on my DF geets. Because I can....

Enjoy that S-500...
BW

[panchito]

Hi Ledergeist,
thanks for your feedback. It seems that you have a different opinion than ieso and Miles Smiles, let alone all the people making trem stabilisers,
about the stability of DF bridges.
I'm afraid I'm gonna waste some time this weekend trying to find out the truth about the springs, the tension and the bendings. I'll let you know ...

JA

[jazzrat]

panchito, I think Ledergeist is referring to the bridge plate being level when the trem is at rest. He is correct about that. The other guys are also correct if talking about the bridge plate lifting up when you bend strings. Adding more springs will help as it stiffens the trem response but they are correct that the bridge plate on a floating trem will always lift somewhat when bending strings.
I have 3 springs on my Legacy and don't notice it much. In theory the more springs you have the less the effect will be. If you add more springs you will have to
loosen the claw screws so the spring tension is equal to that of the strings.

I have used a Trem-setter and as advertised it stabilizes the trem so it does not lift when you bend. The trade-off, at least on the one I have, is that the trem
action is not as smooth. You can feel a little 'catch' as the trem setter engages.

[ieso]

Hi Ledergeist,
thanks for your feedback. It seems that you have a different opinion than ieso and Miles Smiles, let alone all the people making trem stabilisers,
about the stability of DF bridges.
I'm afraid I'm gonna waste some time this weekend trying to find out the truth about the springs, the tension and the bendings. I'll let you know ...

JA

I think some guys on this thread interpreted your situation as one of the bridge not returning to the correct floating position after vibrato bar use. That's not what you were asking, though.

IN THEORY: Adding springs and trem stabilizers, etc., will do anything for you. Think about it like this: your 6 strings tuned to concert pitch will exert a fixed amount of tension (let's just call it 100 for sake of simplicity) that has to be counter-blanced by the springs. If you have two springs then you have to screw them in further to the body to increase the tension such that they equal this hypothetical 100. 3 springs and the tension exerted by the strings is the same (100) but now too much counter-tension supplied by the springs (say, 130) so now you have to loosen all three springs until the three springs = 100. Regardless of whether you use 2, 3, or 4 springs they have to equal the same tension as the strings...100

The number of springs is irrelevant

When you bend a string you increase the string tension and the bridge moves downward in an attempt to equilibrate. Floating bridges float. That's all there is to it. You'll have to use a fixed bridge guitar to have no bridge movement or block this one so that it stops moving if you don't want it to move -- lots of guys did this with Fenders -- pounding a piece of maple between the body and the trem block. But it is functioning as it should. You can't add springs or gadgets to it to make it both a DF bridge and also not move when you bend strings.

IN PRACTICE: adding a spring or gadget may or may not make some difference. But it will not prevent the bridge from moving. I'd just live with it so long as the bridge is doing what it was designed to do.

I hope I save you some time and money this weekend.

[yowhatsshakin]

IN PRACTICE: adding a spring or gadget may or may not make some difference. But it will not prevent the bridge from moving.

Using more strings is supposed to make a difference. Here's my argument using some phyics Those not technically inclined, stop reading here.

The wave velocity v of a standing wave on a string is equal to the square root of the ratio of the tension T and the mass per unit length m/L (or v =√(T/m/L) in formula). Remember that the fundamental frequency f for the note you're playing can be expressed as:

f = v/2L = ½ √(T/mL)

So you see that by increasing the tension, you'll increase the pitch. But the benefit of having more springs is that the other strings will slacken less. Still going flat, but less. Here is why. The unit of tension is the same as force, namely kg ⋅ m/s² in SI; the tension is a force. Hence, that increase in tension is now counteracted by stretching the springs a bit exerting an opposing force. For a spring, the change in length ∆x times the spring constant k is this change in force, or k⋅∆x = ∆F = ∆T. If you use identical springs with a spring constant k, having n springs in parallel gives you an effective spring constant n⋅k. So for 3 springs you would expect the other strings only to slacken by about 1/3 the amount they would slacken if you use 1 spring and 2/3 the amount you'll get when using 2 springs. I made a little idealization in that I neglected the reduction in string tension in the other strings which actually reduces the ∆F in the formula above as well as the fact that the bridge movement also shortens the bended string slightly which couples into the change in tension needed to reach your pitch but the idea is still the same.

[ieso]

interesting lesson and thanks for the schooling. I get what you're saying.

but, as you indicate, the bridge is still going to move. There's no way to eliminate the bridge movement. So (talking out loud to myself here) why not just use it for what it is instead of trying to make it perform less effectively as a vibrato unit?

Would have been cool to cook up a locking switch on the bridge that you could flip when you wanted to do precision country bends and then unlock it when you wanted to use the vibrato bar.

[yowhatsshakin]

Would have been cool to cook up a locking switch on the bridge that you could flip when you wanted to do precision country bends and then unlock it when you wanted to use the vibrato bar.

There's your opportunity to become an inventor/entrepreneur Not a bad idea at all We have tuning machines that drop E to D's, or a similar contraption in a fixed bridge. I envision something like this: if there would be a philips screw driver kind of end to your tremolo bar with latches into a screw like contraption and you rotate the bar out of the way, you'll push out pins that wedges the tremolo in a fixed, immobile position. I can see it ...

[jazzrat]

The Parker bridge is pretty cool, at least the older ones....it has a flip lever on the back to go from floating to down only so you can do those bends without the bridge moving.

[John_L]

Wilkingson used to make one which locked in place when the arm was not in use.

[panchito]

Hi
The point yowhatsshakin made about the springs is interesting. Even if a third spring does not result in an ideal behavior of the bridge wrt bendings , there should be a certain improvement at little cost (at least, a priori, probably my mind changes after installing it ... ) and without changing too much the reaction of the bridge, a la Trem-setter. So, I think it´s worth trying it.... Thanks to all for your help !

JA

[Ledergeist]

Yep. looks like I was not sure exactly what was meant originally. I am seeing a little bridge deflection while doing some major string-bending on the fretboard now. Never really paid much attention to looking for that. Since the note is being bent anyway, I wouldn't think it effects performance too much. If it stays in tune, it's all good.
Side Note:
I don't have a pic handy, but G&L did use a little device that screwed in below the bridge that you could turn and keep the trem from moving. Maybe someone here has a geet with one of those?

Happy Bendings.....
BW

[ieso]

Yep. looks like I was not sure exactly what was meant originally. I am seeing a little bridge deflection while doing some major string-bending on the fretboard now. Never really paid much attention to looking for that. Since the note is being bent anyway, I wouldn't think it effects performance too much. If it stays in tune, it's all good.
Side Note:
I don't have a pic handy, but G&L did use a little device that screwed in below the bridge that you could turn and keep the trem from moving. Maybe someone here has a geet with one of those?

Happy Bendings.....
BW

BTW, Ledergeist, how many springs do you have on your bridge?

[Ledergeist]

BTW, Ledergeist, how many springs do you have on your bridge?

9.
3 on the trem block, and one on each saddle screw.

[ieso]

BTW, Ledergeist, how many springs do you have on your bridge?

9.
3 on the trem block, and one on each saddle screw.

Argh! There goes my trick question!

[KH Guitar Freak]

I know this thread is rather old, but I will chip in. There's a company that has designed a trem to allow the bridge to flat, whilst negating the problem associated with your double stop bends going out of tune so to speak. Trem King is the name if I'm not mistaken. Based on hearsay, it works, but there were some flaws with it that I can't remember...

[officerNordberg]

I just installed a tremsetter over the weekend. Take-aways:

• It works as advertised (bends, return to zero, resting hand on trem for palm-muting)
• The Trem claw on my S-500 tribute had holes drilled too close together for installation, had to drill 2 additional holes for new trem claws
• It was noisy at first. I had to file down the installation bracket so it's own copper collar would not hit it when pulling up
• Graphite on the rest of the mechanism quieted but didn't completely remove the rest of the noise added.
• As someone else stated it isn't as smooth
• I see it as a necessary evil since I don't want to block my trem and I wish to have the features it provides
• It was easy after watching the YouTube video several times.

[umma_gumma]

Nordberg how are you liking the tremsetter, it's been a while?

I am curious if the gtr stays in tune if you break a string?

Thx!