Fiorano GTS Technical Question

[Robstafarian]

Late to the game, I've discovered I have some interest in the Fiorano GTS as my second guitar (to compliment my S-500). The aesthetics are something I tolerate more than enjoy, but it ticks all the other boxes:

1. Less than US$1,000
2. 24 Frets
3. Dual Humbucker
4. Not a Schecter
5. (Bonus) It's a G&L

However, I have recently read an article that's made me reconsider guitar design. Can any of you tell me if this holds water, and if the Fiorano GTS complies with the theory discussed?

[yowhatsshakin]

As a PhD physicist myself, let me stick out my neck and make some comments on said article. So sit back and relax and lets get going:

1. It is an article published on Ed Roman's site. You should know Ed is very opinionated, and I mean VERY opinionated on certain things. He certainly seems to have a peeve with 22 fret PRS models and whenever he gets a chance to mention that, no matter the context, he will.
2. There is nothing wrong with the physics mentioned. For any standing wave along a string with fixed end points there will be n number of nodes, where n indicates the harmonic of the note. The note produced will be the fundamental plus a number of these overtones where the contribution of the overtones to the vibrational pattern depends on many things: materials used for nut and bridge, how the vibrations transfered to the body and neck of the guitar couple back to the string, where and how you pick the string (think of the technique where you can create a more 'squeaking' note with relatively more overtones in the tone when you pick with your thumb slightly damping the string at the end of the attack), etc.
3. If all you would do is play open strings, the location of these nodes will never changes in terms of their distance from some reference point, say the bridge. But when you fret a note, the string becomes shorter. Lets look at the chromatic scale and what the previous remark implies. Just like the article, lets assume a 25" scale (for easy computation) and a neck pickup on a 22 fret guitar being positioned at the location of where the 24th fret would be on a 24 fret guitar, which is a quarter of the way in or 6.25" from the bridge. This is indeed where the node for the 3rd overtone of the open string is. But the moment you fret e.g. an A on the E-string, from the referenced article we find that the frequency is 4/3 of the open E. This implies that the length of the vibrating string is 3/4 * 25" or 18.75", 25% shorter. Also the positions of all nodes of all overtones have now moved closer to the bridge by 25% and have moved away from being right over the pickup.
4. So Ed's peeve would be for open strings and any fretted note where a node of one of the harmonics is right over the neck pickup which would lead to an absence of this harmonic contributing to the final timbre of the note according to his reasoning. But this generic statement would hold equally true for the bridge pickup, or any pickup at any place on the guitar body for that matter, but just with other fretted notes.
5. The main fallacy IMHO in Ed's argument is that there is a tacit assumption the pickup has a response that is a delta function, or stated otherwise, that the pickup is infinitely thin and only detects the movement of the string though the magnetic field created by the pickup in a very narrow spatial interval. This of course is false. Pickups have finite dimensions and the magnetic field extends throughout a large volume of space. Any and all pieces of a string moving in this extended magnetic field contributes to the signal. Of course computing the exact response is not trivial; strings don't move just up and down but trace more like ellipsoids through space, there might be a certain amount of phase cancelation of pieces of string moving up vs. other pieces moving down, etc. But I hope you get the point and see that there might still be some of the 3rd harmonic in the note. You'd have to take traces and do a Fourier transform of the played note to see whether that is true. If Ed would have provided a graph with the Fourier components and demonstrate in that way there is no 3rd harmonic at all for an open string when using the neck pickup on a 22 fret guitar, he could have saved me a lot of typing. But apparently that experiment has either not been done (it hasn't by me for sure) or it did not support the argument and hence was omitted.
6. Did I already mention Ed is VERY opinionated?
7. Leo was not a musician. But he is one of the best, if not the best, pickup designer the world has ever seen. People like Seymour Duncan, Jason Lollar, Lindy Fralin, although none of them slouches, still only try to perfect many of his designs, certainly when it comes down to single coil pups. And Leo was known to be tinkering with the positioning of pickups on guitars he designed. If you ever get the chance to see the factory tour and can look though his office, see e.g this YouTube video on the G&L channel, you'll see the pickup breadboards he used.

The sum it all up, the position of the pickup does contribute to the sonic, amplified character of the guitar. But that character is exactly what people are looking for. That is why not all guitars sound alike. In my opinion, there is no such thing as a 'perfect' guitar. Just different guitars that are the equivalent of colors on a painter's palette.

Hope this helps,

-Jos

Edit: Fix link to YouTube vid. Yes, I want the link and not embed the vid
Edit: Sharpen and improve clarity of arguments 4&5 a tad. At least I hope

[Robstafarian]

Sir, do you have a daughter? Would you like to be my father in law? You have no idea how much this geek wants to buy you a meal and hear every detail you can think to mention regarding anything which might come to mind. Thank you for that explanation; I wonder if it should be stickied (the linked article was the first Google result for “24 fret guitars”).

I might pass on the Tribute Fiorana GTS and hope to get a USA model of same, simply because I never want to have a guitar without the PTB tone circuit. Besides, I think a Gun Oil neck would go wonderfully with the red.


EDIT: I have seen the factory tour videos, and I absolutely loved seeing Leo's tools and the fact that his office has been left unmolested. If only everyone had learned as much from the library at Alexandria.

[Ledergeist]

Jos -
Great Post! And yeah, Ed R.... :lol

[Craig]

Jos -
Great Post! And yeah, Ed R.... :lol

And Ed is no longer living ... I heard the news from Ken Baker on Sunday:

Ed Roman died this past Wednesday, apparently of a massive heart attack.

This confirms his death: http://www.edroman.com/

[louis cyfer]

jos, great post. thank you. a lot of people use a little knowledge to form a misguided opinion, missing a lot of important details. imnsho, ed is one of them.

[yowhatsshakin]

Jos -
Great Post! And yeah, Ed R.... :lol

And Ed is no longer living ... I heard the news from Ken Baker on Sunday:

Ed Roman died this past Wednesday, apparently of a massive heart attack.

This confirms his death: http://www.edroman.com/

OK, that makes it weird. Opinionated or not, you cannot deny Ed loved guitars, both selling and building them. RIP.

- Jos

[willross]

Ed was a good guy. Tough to haggle with, but a good guy.


Cheers,

Will

[louis cyfer]

i will miss his rants though. not always accurate, but always entertaining.

[Robstafarian]

Getting back to the title of this thread, are the pickups in the Fiorano “F-spaced” or standard spaced? I am thinking of getting a Fiorano and putting DiMarzio pickups in it (Air Zone at the neck, Tone Zone at the bridge). I figure it'd be nice to have the G&L pickups as spares (possibly for one of my father's ES-335 knockoffs), and I'd prefer nickel covered humbuckers anyway.

Are the pots 250kΩ or 500kΩ?

There is no real time frame for this, as I'll be shifting to MIDI+virtual instruments in the near future, but I'd like to get all the information I can now. I think such a dual humbucker guitar would neatly avoid diluting my G&L lovefest with a PRS SE Custom 24.

[yowhatsshakin]

Getting back to the title of this thread, are the pickups in the Fiorano “F-spaced” or standard spaced?

Now that is an interesting question My answer would be F-spaced for the bridge pup based on the following observations: In the Korina Collection ASAT Deluxe you'd find a Seymour Duncan TB-4 (or TremBucker which is SD terminology for DiMarzio'z "F-spaced") while it has a TonePros T3BT bridge. I'd have to assume that even though a different bridge is used (a TonePros C-TPFP), the bridge pup is still F--spaced, the more since the Fiorano has a AW4368B in the bridge and the 'W' indicated wide pole spacing. BTW, the full explanation on how to decipher the model designation used by G&L for their pickups can be found here.

The neck pickup on the other hand is Standard spaced, since it is a AS4255B. So you see, the answer is not even the same for the 2 pups. But from what I've read, the term 'F-spaced' seems to be reserved solely for the bridge pickup anyway.

Hope this helps,

- Jos

[darylb]

No way I can come close to that reply but I will say that sometimes we over think this stuff. Dead spots or no, Gibson and PRS have made some of the best music of our time regardless of science. I wouldnt sweat the pickup placement.

Others may feel differently but I find the strength of the G&L guitars is the pickups. I dont think I would change out pickups on any model (other than wanting an ASAT with a G&L humbucker bridge pickup and the MFD from my ASAT Special in the neck position). I would at the very least play it like it came before I made plans to put anyone else's pickups in it.

Nothing wrong with changing them out. There is no right and wrong. I just think these guys have it figured out with pickups.

[Robstafarian]

I find the strength of the G&L guitars is the pickups. I dont think I would change out pickups on any model (other than wanting an ASAT with a G&L humbucker bridge pickup and the MFD from my ASAT Special in the neck position). I would at the very least play it like it came before I made plans to put anyone else's pickups in it.

Nothing wrong with changing them out. There is no right and wrong. I just think these guys have it figured out with pickups.

I agree, based on my S-500 and the lone YouTube demo I've seen of the Fiorano GTS. I may in fact keep the stock humbuckers in place, if I get the guitar at all, but for now my thinking is more focused on the DiMarzio pickups mentioned. If the G&L is too good on its own, I'll have to come up with some other vessel to house the DiMarzio combination. Just when I want to find a basketcase cheap...

Did I mentioned I'm tempted to pick up a resonator before my second electric? Being a geek means never getting over GAS.

[louis cyfer]

I find the strength of the G&L guitars is the pickups. I dont think I would change out pickups on any model (other than wanting an ASAT with a G&L humbucker bridge pickup and the MFD from my ASAT Special in the neck position). I would at the very least play it like it came before I made plans to put anyone else's pickups in it.

Nothing wrong with changing them out. There is no right and wrong. I just think these guys have it figured out with pickups.

I agree, based on my S-500 and the lone YouTube demo I've seen of the Fiorano GTS. I may in fact keep the stock humbuckers in place, if I get the guitar at all, but for now my thinking is more focused on the DiMarzio pickups mentioned. If the G&L is too good on its own, I'll have to come up with some other vessel to house the DiMarzio combination. Just when I want to find a basketcase cheap...

Did I mentioned I'm tempted to pick up a resonator before my second electric? Being a geek means never getting over GAS.

why dp you like those dimarzio pups? you already have them?

[Robstafarian]

why dp you like those dimarzio pups? you already have them?

Sound samples and demos, the same way I settled on an S-500.

[louis cyfer]

why dp you like those dimarzio pups? you already have them?

Sound samples and demos, the same way I settled on an S-500.

pickups are funny that way. i used to like dimarzios until i got to try some better pups. i love my d allen buckers now. also the single coils from him. i also have fralin, lollar, anderson that are so much better than the dimarzios i have tried. i have had a lot of dimarzios. most are sold now. i really like tom holmes and bare knuckle humbuckers as well. pickups work different for each guitar, and the person playing them is even a bigger difference.