Manufacturing problem. No help?

[Mangrande]

Recently i bought an American made ASAT S-III and have fallen completely in love with the guitar except for one problem. I bought the guitar used from guitar center online so i was prepared to understand any complications with it due to its prior user. however the guitar is practically brand new and the only problem with it is a Manufacturing problem.. The fret canals (excuse my lack of a better term) in the fingerboard were not made deep enough for the frets to be ceded properly into the fingerboard (causing tremendous fret buzz even at a high action). first i tried to contact G&L repairs via email.. never heard back. two weeks passed by in which i took it to three guitar specialists who all said the same thing: "Manufacturing problem this should be dealt with by G&L". called G&L repairs/left message. didnt hear back (perhaps i was going about it wrong?) called again the next week and got the repair man who then cited the warranty policy and how it doesnt transfer owners then couldnt help me. SURELY it is in G&L's interest to fix problems that came out of their own workshop? I hope I'm not going about this wrong but it just doesnt seem right.

[Craig]

Recently i bought an American made ASAT S-III and have fallen completely in love with the guitar except for one problem. I bought the guitar used from guitar center online so i was prepared to understand any complications with it due to its prior user. however the guitar is practically brand new and the only problem with it is a Manufacturing problem.. The fret canals (excuse my lack of a better term) in the fingerboard were not made deep enough for the frets to be ceded properly into the fingerboard (causing tremendous fret buzz even at a high action). first i tried to contact G&L repairs via email.. never heard back. two weeks passed by in which i took it to three guitar specialists who all said the same thing: "Manufacturing problem this should be dealt with by G&L". called G&L repairs/left message. didnt hear back (perhaps i was going about it wrong?) called again the next week and got the repair man who then cited the warranty policy and how it doesnt transfer owners then couldnt help me. SURELY it is in G&L's interest to fix problems that came out of their own workshop? I hope I'm not going about this wrong but it just doesnt seem right.

I am not sure which G&L model you are referring to, as there is no such model as an "ASAT S-III".
Please post a photo of this guitar so that we can determine that actual model instrument you have.
What is the serial number of this instrument? You will find the serial number on the back of the headstock
and it should begin with "CLF". Since you bought this guitar used you cannot necessarily assume that the
frets on this guitar are the original ones. Please post some photos clearly showing the frets which you feel
are not right. I will forward these photos to the Director of Manufacturing for his review.

Hope this helps.

[KenC]

I'm sorry to hear that. If it's the Classic S they had for sale recently (S/N CLF46237), I almost bought it. The specs matched the 2004 run. As I recall, they had the model name listed incorrectly on their website (which is pretty typical). Another store had a '98 (judging from the "CL" serial number) ASAT Classic III for sale at the same time.

Ken

[Mangrande]

heres a link to my flickr files http://www.flickr.com/photos/69027514@N02/6278825964/

a certificate of authenticity came with it and the guitar is labeled ASAT III on there. it cant be a classic because of the pickups used in the special i thought? maybe i was wrong to say S-III maybe its just III. i didnt think about them not being original frets but yes im having that fretting problem past 13/14 ish frets. some of them arent as bad but i can still fit my nail in the gap.. thanks for the quick response!

[Ahryn]

I am by no means an expert at any of this but it looks to me like maybe there was a temperature or humidity change in shipping and the rosewood fretboard might have shrunk and (as G&L presses their frets in) the frets may have become loose.

Also could it be a used ASAT S-3?

[KenC]

+1 to Ahryn on both counts. It looks like an S-3 to me, and my first thought was that it's been in an extremely dry climate. I'm not sure whether you would see that drastic of a change in the board due to shipping alone. I have an old Fender Jazz with a bad refret job (of my own doing) that was much less playable during Maine winters than summers when I lived up there. Where was this instrument before you bought it? Where is it now? Can you do anything to gently increase the humidity and let the rosewood board expand back to its original dimensions? I would do that first, and then have a good guitar tech re-seat and dress the frets as necessary. It looks like anything you do to the frets with a shrunken fingerboard (if that is the case) would probably be temporary at best.

Aside from the fret issue, this is a gorgeous guitar. I've never heard an S-3 in person. How do the in-between positions sound?

Ken

[Craig]

heres a link to my flickr files http://www.flickr.com/photos/69027514@N02/6278825964/

a certificate of authenticity came with it and the guitar is labeled ASAT III on there. it cant be a classic because of the pickups used in the special i thought? maybe i was wrong to say S-III maybe its just III. i didnt think about them not being original frets but yes im having that fretting problem past 13/14 ish frets. some of them arent as bad but i can still fit my nail in the gap.. thanks for the quick response!

The model name is the ASAT S-3 (manufactured from 1998-2000) and by the serial number CLxxxxx format it was built in 1998.
This is 13 year old guitar, hardly a recently built one. This guitar has been out of warranty for three years.
Over time and depending upon, temperature/humidity, usage, and maintenance, frets can work themselves loose. That's what it looks like to me. I certainly don't see how you or your "guitar specialists" can say that there was a manufacturing problem when it was built 13 years ago.

It's hard to tell but those could be the original frets. It looks to me that it needs some of the frets replaced, but if it were
my guitar, I would have a complete refret done and then Plek'd (I'd find a shop with a Plek machine).

What ever route you go, once you get the frets replaced, I sure you will again fall completely in love with the guitar.

Also, please do add your guitar to our G&L Registry.

Hope this helps.

[Mangrande]

wow i guess i had no idea that humidity could cause such a drastic change like that.. i appreciate all the input and i will hopefully find the best solution to fixing the frets and get it back in working condition. as for how it sounds (@ Ken) it sounds simply amazing. I couldn't believe it when i discovered the model... it doesn't make sense to me why there aren't more of these being made but i have A/B'ed it next to my friends strat (cant say what kind but definitely past american standard range) and i felt i got a much more appealing warm strat sound on positions 2+4 and then still bites like the ASAT specials in the other 3 positions.

but yes... now to find a plek machine.. its in my local guitar center as of now, i wonder what they got =P

[louis cyfer]

wow i guess i had no idea that humidity could cause such a drastic change like that.. i appreciate all the input and i will hopefully find the best solution to fixing the frets and get it back in working condition. as for how it sounds (@ Ken) it sounds simply amazing. I couldn't believe it when i discovered the model... it doesn't make sense to me why there aren't more of these being made but i have A/B'ed it next to my friends strat (cant say what kind but definitely past american standard range) and i felt i got a much more appealing warm strat sound on positions 2+4 and then still bites like the ASAT specials in the other 3 positions.

but yes... now to find a plek machine.. its in my local guitar center as of now, i wonder what they got =P

why would you take the guitar to your local guitar center guitar butcher? no good can come out of it. getting a refret there is a huge mistake. a plek machine is not necessary for a great fret job, but it will certainly be better than a mediocre tech's fret job. a great tech can do a refret as well as a plek machine. and it still depends on the operator's skill.

[jwebsmall]

What tolerance is a Plek machine good to? Is it 1/1000 th of an inch.

There is a shop near me that has the heavy duty plek (one of only
5 in the country not at a manufacturer). I've had them scan
several of my guitars and we looked at the neck scan of the
frets - it looks like a dental xray of your teeth and leveling.

From this drawing we can decide a linear regression line (curve)
that will require the least amount of fret leveling across all 6
strings with a given truss rod setting.

They plek maybe 20+ guitars a week - that's all their shop does
basically (they do re-frets too). They sell a few boutique guitars,
build occasional ornate parts casters even a pimp would like and
OEM their house brand Tweed amp clone. But many of the local
guitar stores and luthier/techs send their guitars to this shop for
plek setup now.

Because of their experience with the plek machine they know how
to do conventional setups without the plek and get them pretty good
- better than any of the luthiers/guitar-techs in the area I've been to
including the local PRS authorized dealer and their tech. But even so the
plek setup is better.

They can tweak the set up with the plek to fit your playing style
and string gauge and get it so low you won't don't like it if that's
how low you want it. I haven't met the tech that can equal that trick.

They have a Squier bullet strat hanging on the wall that they plek'ed
(and replaced the pickups). I've hung around on several Saturdays
because I'm friends with the owner. Customers will bring in their
guitars asking about a setup and whether the plek really is worth it.
The owner has some amps and he hands them the Squier (he's buffed
off the logo so it looks like a parts stratocaster) and asks them to play
it and tell him want they think. Then he tells them it is a Squier and
they almost all say yeah give us the plek job. That Squier plays
like a Fender custom shop guitar or at least the action. (They dressed the
ends of the frets with a file/etc. too so that isn't a distraction to the
perception of the action resulting from the plek job.)

I've seen several manufacturers say they plek setup and cut the nut.
But you can do a plek scan and setup (meaning you do the set up
by hand after scanning the neck and setting the optimal truss rod
tension for the existing fret profile). It's one thing to plek scan, another
to plek cut the nut and yet another to also have the plek grind/level the
frets for that curvature of the neck. So I don't know which manufacturers
are going the full distance when they say they do a plek setup. BTW
they can even change the radius of the neck - of the frets that is and
crown the frets with the plek machine.

The whole setup up is called the Plek Pro setup and is locally priced

PLEK PRO Complete price is $210.00
(Add $45.00 for floating tremolos, Add $85 for Stainless Steel frets)

They have to replace grinding wheels more often with stainless steel frets
hence the up charge. They also charge you for strings (the plek needs
uncoated strings to do its scan.)

So when you consider a Tribute and add on the cost of a deluxe case and plek
and assembly by skilled craftsmen, the USA G&L's are a great bargain! You are
also getting US selected wood, hardware, controls and wiring, etc.

So often I'll read guitar reviews about someone returning a guitar to Musiciansfriend
because the frets buzzed and therefore the guitar/model/brand is no good. Unless the
neck is warped, a plek pro setup can make even the Squier play as
well as the custom shop guitar, action wise. The materials are still going to
be inferior but the the plek is a great leveler as far as action goes (pun intended).

Once you see the graph on the plek's computer screen I doubt you would say
it can be equaled by a skilled human working with hand tools. Take your
just set up guitar to the near plek shop and have a look. The jagged levels
of the frets of even best human setup will set your teeth on end. Looking
at the computer screen on the Plek machine is almost like having an electron
microscope for the guitar's playing "surface".

[KenC]

Would you mind telling me the name of this shop? I'm not too far from you (near Annapolis) and have been thinking about a refret on my '69 Precision neck.

Thanks,

Ken

[jwebsmall]

The shop near me is Crossroads Guitar Shop in Bailey's cross roads.
Vince is the owner. They won't do it while you wait however.

I think there is a plek machine in Baltimore near the inner harbor.
So that might be closer. I don't know if they are still in business.
They required an appointment but this shop near me doesn't. You
just have to leave the guitar and pick it up the next weekend. They
close at 4pm on Saturday and they are closed on Mondays.

http://www.crossroadsguitarshop.com/

Yes they plek basses too!

It's a neat shop build out in the corner of a Seatco automotive
shop. The Seatco owner is a silent partner with Vince (or at
least he was.) You'll like the shop even though it's small
it has some off band guitars you won't find at your typical
local guitar store.

[KenC]

Thanks for the info. I'll have to get over there and check it out.

Ken

[louis cyfer]

What tolerance is a Plek machine good to? Is it 1/1000 th of an inch.

There is a shop near me that has the heavy duty plek (one of only
5 in the country not at a manufacturer). I've had them scan
several of my guitars and we looked at the neck scan of the
frets - it looks like a dental xray of your teeth and leveling.

From this drawing we can decide a linear regression line (curve)
that will require the least amount of fret leveling across all 6
strings with a given truss rod setting.

They plek maybe 20+ guitars a week - that's all their shop does
basically (they do re-frets too). They sell a few boutique guitars,
build occasional ornate parts casters even a pimp would like and
OEM their house brand Tweed amp clone. But many of the local
guitar stores and luthier/techs send their guitars to this shop for
plek setup now.

Because of their experience with the plek machine they know how
to do conventional setups without the plek and get them pretty good
- better than any of the luthiers/guitar-techs in the area I've been to
including the local PRS authorized dealer and their tech. But even so the
plek setup is better.

They can tweak the set up with the plek to fit your playing style
and string gauge and get it so low you won't don't like it if that's
how low you want it. I haven't met the tech that can equal that trick.

They have a Squier bullet strat hanging on the wall that they plek'ed
(and replaced the pickups). I've hung around on several Saturdays
because I'm friends with the owner. Customers will bring in their
guitars asking about a setup and whether the plek really is worth it.
The owner has some amps and he hands them the Squier (he's buffed
off the logo so it looks like a parts stratocaster) and asks them to play
it and tell him want they think. Then he tells them it is a Squier and
they almost all say yeah give us the plek job. That Squier plays
like a Fender custom shop guitar or at least the action. (They dressed the
ends of the frets with a file/etc. too so that isn't a distraction to the
perception of the action resulting from the plek job.)

I've seen several manufacturers say they plek setup and cut the nut.
But you can do a plek scan and setup (meaning you do the set up
by hand after scanning the neck and setting the optimal truss rod
tension for the existing fret profile). It's one thing to plek scan, another
to plek cut the nut and yet another to also have the plek grind/level the
frets for that curvature of the neck. So I don't know which manufacturers
are going the full distance when they say they do a plek setup. BTW
they can even change the radius of the neck - of the frets that is and
crown the frets with the plek machine.

The whole setup up is called the Plek Pro setup and is locally priced

PLEK PRO Complete price is $210.00
(Add $45.00 for floating tremolos, Add $85 for Stainless Steel frets)

They have to replace grinding wheels more often with stainless steel frets
hence the up charge. They also charge you for strings (the plek needs
uncoated strings to do its scan.)

So when you consider a Tribute and add on the cost of a deluxe case and plek
and assembly by skilled craftsmen, the USA G&L's are a great bargain! You are
also getting US selected wood, hardware, controls and wiring, etc.

So often I'll read guitar reviews about someone returning a guitar to Musiciansfriend
because the frets buzzed and therefore the guitar/model/brand is no good. Unless the
neck is warped, a plek pro setup can make even the Squier play as
well as the custom shop guitar, action wise. The materials are still going to
be inferior but the the plek is a great leveler as far as action goes (pun intended).

Once you see the graph on the plek's computer screen I doubt you would say
it can be equaled by a skilled human working with hand tools. Take your
just set up guitar to the near plek shop and have a look. The jagged levels
of the frets of even best human setup will set your teeth on end. Looking
at the computer screen on the Plek machine is almost like having an electron
microscope for the guitar's playing "surface".

there is one factor that you left out. the wood is a dynamic medium, and by the time you get the guitar home, the neck changes enough that the 1/1000 of an inch no longer giving you a benefit. most people have not experienced a well set up guitar, and comparing an average tech to a plek setup, the plek wins by a mile. now, if you ever have the fortune to experience a premiere tech's fret job, you'll realize they perform at a level of a plek. i have played many plekked guitars, i prefer my tech's results. i am one of the few lucky ones to have the opportunity to have such a pro work on my guitar. his wait time is not a week though, most wait 6 months for him.

[Ledergeist]

An extra $85 to Plek stainless frets?? Ridiculous! With the proper grade of grinding wheel, you can machine all kinds of exotic alloys. Besides that, the amount of material removed on fretwork is not very much to begin with.

Just my 85.02 worth....
BW

[Lazer]

Interesting,
I live in a climate which is very very dry in the winter and very humid in the summer. I haver never seen
anything like this caused by climate change alone. The second picture showing the frets close to the
head shows significant fret wear. It is resonable to beleive it has not gone through refret recently.
The fingerboard has a "wet" look to it. I think this is a case of "over lubricating". To much oil on a fret
board will make it swell...

Cheers
L-zr

[Miles Smiles]

I am by no means an expert at any of this but it looks to me like maybe there was a temperature or humidity change in shipping and the rosewood fretboard might have shrunk and (as G&L presses their frets in) the frets may have become loose.

Also could it be a used ASAT S-3?

I cannot imagine, that this is a humidty thing. At first because I don't believe that they would have used wet wood and even then, I would not expect that amount of shrinking and next, the shrinking would have been the same for all frets.

[darwinohm]

In looking at the above photo, the fret grooves in the neck are not deep enough for the fret tangs. This could be corrected by a competent Luthier. Has the rose wood shrunk? Who knows but it looks fixable to me. As I look at the photo, this is near the butt of the neck and I would suspect shrinkage and it is probably stable by now. -- Darwin

[Miles Smiles]

This could be corrected by a competent Luthier.

No doubt about that.

If it's jut for a few frets, this could be done in minutes, except an optionally fret leveling job.

[jwebsmall]

I've always wanted to try a Michael Tuttle fret job. (i.e Best Frets)

http://tuttleguitars.com/flash/index.htm

I have case humidifiers for my electric guitars as
well as acoustic. And I always keep the guitars
in the cases when I'm not playing them. This
eliminates most of these neck/fret changing
problems.

[louis cyfer]

I've always wanted to try a Michael Tuttle fret job. (i.e Best Frets)

http://tuttleguitars.com/flash/index.htm

I have case humidifiers for my electric guitars as
well as acoustic. And I always keep the guitars
in the cases when I'm not playing them. This
eliminates most of these neck/fret changing
problems.

my tech fixes some of tuttle's fret jobs.

[jwebsmall]

Wow - okay you have one of the best techs in the world then!

[louis cyfer]

Wow - okay you have one of the best techs in the world then!

indeed. ask eric johnson about it.

[jwebsmall]

BTW I have the Eric Johnson signature strat (maple fingerboard).
One sweet sounding guitar.

[sirmyghin]

I am by no means an expert at any of this but it looks to me like maybe there was a temperature or humidity change in shipping and the rosewood fretboard might have shrunk and (as G&L presses their frets in) the frets may have become loose.

Also could it be a used ASAT S-3?

I cannot imagine, that this is a humidty thing. At first because I don't believe that they would have used wet wood and even then, I would not expect that amount of shrinking and next, the shrinking would have been the same for all frets.

Lots of wear on those frets. It is also entirely possible these are not the original frets, being a 13 year old guitar and all.

[Lazer]

Possible, but if it's refretted once and already showing this much fret wear, I'd expect to see a lot more
general wear than the pics show. Dirt and oil has a tendency to creep into the wood and eventually make
it soft and then the fret ends pop out. It's normally gluable, but in this case it's soo many so I don't know.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

BTW I have the Eric Johnson signature strat (maple fingerboard).
One sweet sounding guitar.

I have a couple of Eric Johnson CD's.

[NickHorne]

Extraordinary.
Looks like an almost unbelievably incompetent refret job. Note that the slots are (as they very usually are) around half the depth of the fingerboard. The percentage shrinkage of the rosewood that would be needed to pop out frets that once fitted those slots just doesn't happen, I'd find it pretty incredible even if some major solar accident happened to the guitar. And the fingerboard / maple join line, the scratchplate etc, look completely unstressed and tidy-as-new.
Don't get hung up about Plek being necessary for your solution. It's a great manufacturing tool, and probably great for busy tech shops / drawing tech custom.
A wise tech will know how to make this guitar of yours extremely lovable (probably for a very long time) so you can live at peace!

[NickHorne]

Also, I'm not convinced that what we see in the photo actually is wear; the dressing looks pretty weirdly inconsistent, and then maybe someone has run an abrasive pad or something over the lot, creating the high polish line on the fret crowns; that doesn't look like playing wear (bending the 5th and 6th strings at the 22nd fret anyone?) - perhaps just done to pretty things up for whatever reason...

[Lazer]

Also, I'm not convinced that what we see in the photo actually is wear; the dressing looks pretty weirdly inconsistent, and then maybe someone has run an abrasive pad or something over the lot, creating the high polish line on the fret crowns; that doesn't look like playing wear (bending the 5th and 6th strings at the 22nd fret anyone?) - perhaps just done to pretty things up for whatever reason...

That is a very good point. Why so much wear on the low strings high up on the neck, and none closer to the
head? It's almost like hammer hits rignt on the strings. That could mean severe damage to the fret slots.

I agree with ya, somebody really really screwed this up. Hope it can be fixed.

Cheers
L-zr

[Philby]

I think Lazer is on the money here re. the apparent fret wear. The frets have popped out of their slots for whatever reason, and someone has tried to knock them back in with a hammer without removing the strings first. End result: the strings have put dents in the frets that kind of look like wear.

A good fret level and crown will remove the dents, but first of all the frets need to be seated properly. It's something a competent luthier should be able to achieve fairly easily.

[NickHorne]

I just don't see those tangs ever going into those slots. The frets look like they they were always wrong for the job. The weirdly erratic dressing looks like an attempt to level their tops up regardless of the fact that they hadn't gone down flush with the board.
But it's not so bad, surely? Just have a really competent tech take them all out and refret the guitar properly. Then it should be good, or even great, for years. You're just getting a refret done on a used guitar, no big worry.
I'm pretty confident that a good tech will be able to reassure you. And you don't need a Plek machine, or a 5000-Jiggerwatt sub-atomic particle accelerator either, to get it done great. Just a real tech.

[Mangrande]

yes thank you all for the input. I decided to take it to a tech who guaranteed my satisfaction with his refret job. i called the closest shop that had a plek machine and they were charging $600 to do the plek setup... so yea im placing my trust in this tech. so stoked about getting it back!

[thunder100]

I am by no means an expert at any of this but it looks to me like maybe there was a temperature or humidity change in shipping and the rosewood fretboard might have shrunk and (as G&L presses their frets in) the frets may have become loose.

Also could it be a used ASAT S-3?

I cannot imagine, that this is a humidty thing. At first because I don't believe that they would have used wet wood and even then, I would not expect that amount of shrinking and next, the shrinking would have been the same for all frets.

Lots of wear on those frets. It is also entirely possible these are not the original frets, being a 13 year old guitar and all.

These are NOT trhe original frets.Just looked to a friends S-3 a year older then the shown

Cure?

A good luthier or a replacement neck.If the fret doesnt sit firm on the rosewood,would buzz always

my 2 cents

Roland

[KenC]

I just took a quick look at replacement frets from Stewart-MacDonald. Picking their "wide/high" and "wide/highest" as examples, there is a difference of 0.024" (the same as a light gauge G string) on the tangs. Comparing the gaps under the frets to the diameter of the E string, it seems like a poor choice of materials for a refret could have caused the exact problem in the photo.

Ken