What's that sound?

[blargfromouterspace]

I was doing a spot of low volume home recording with my '97 ASAT the other day and listening back to the track I noticed a ring, kind of like the ring you get if a microphone is feeding back slightly. I tried to find the source of it and was very surprised when I did. It wasn't coming through the amp as I'd expected. It was the sympathetic ringing of the strings behind the nut. Has anyone else noticed this on their guitars? I've found that I get the same ring on each of my ASATs, and it's at about the same pitch. Only way to stop it is to put a piece of cloth on the strings behind the nut, something which - if you check my avatar - I've experimented with in the past . Could this be stopped in any other way? Perhaps with more downward pressure over the nut? Ideas?

[Ivo]

I haven't heard that on my guitars. What I do hear, and drives me crazy, is that tinkling sound when bending. But you can't hear that on recordings. I can imagine that being problem on acoustic guitars, but recording an electric guitar with a mic in front of the amp, you must be playing very soft to be able to hear it on recordings. Well, these bra's seems to be the solution all for our problems. I'll give that a try.

[asphalt-abate]

As I've become older it seems like I notice unintended sounds from my guitars more often and they disturb me. It may be from playing at a much lower volume and/or from trying to play with more class and less flash. On my ASAT one of my strings (either the D or G I can't remember at the moment) will start to vibrate on its own causing a Sitar like effect. It's subtle but at low volumes you can hear it. On my American Standard Telecaster, the G string produces an exagerated "chink" when played. All the strings do this, it's the nature of the new American Standard bridge, which is cool in it's own way but its louder on the G string. Back in my youth I probably would not have noticed nor cared.

Tom

[gitman001]

Hey Jamie,

I get the same thing from my s-500...... I usually stick a pick through the strings behind the nut and it takes care of it for me. The problem drove me crazy and rehearsals for a long time, nobody else seemed to notice but me! I would love to have a more permanent solution, maybe another string tree? I don't really want to drill another hole on the headstock.

Scott

[darwinohm]

Jamie, I am curious if this happens on only open strings or does it also happen while fretting. I would suspect nut grove as the source but you never know until you try it. I would be curious if anyone experienced this with the Fender LSR nut. Scott has an easy solution but it would be interesting to know what is causing it. Is it a direct vibration or a sympathetic vibration? If it is sympathetic, then the only solution would be dampening or string trees.Another suggestion would be locking tuners as they generally have lower posts and that would change the string angle. Let us know what you come up with Jamie.-- Darwin

[sickbutnottired]

Sounds like the easiest solution is to turn some of the knobs on your amp clockwise, but I think you have already found the most, um interesting solution! I am playing a lot with no amp, I will try and pay more attention and see if I notice it!

I am curious, like Darwin, if it only happens on open strings.

Interesting.

[blargfromouterspace]

but recording an electric guitar with a mic in front of the amp, you must be playing very soft to be able to hear it on recordings.

That's the thing - while I wasn't playing at gig volume it was loud enough that I didn't think it'd be picked up by the mic.

It's not just on open strings or big chords either - in fact it's less noticeable. The recording where I first noticed it was playing muted single note lines a'la Luther Perkins. To really get it going play an A in the open position and mute it just after picking it.

Darwin - I have staggered locking tuners on them all For now I'll get a piece of foam to stick in there.

[Philby]

Nearly all my guitars have made weird squeaks, pings, rattles and hums at some point but I've never noticed the strings vibrating behind the nut.

A large majority of the unwanted noises I've noticed have been caused by the nut, either by binding in the slot or the slot not making the correct angle as the string pulls across. I wonder if the nut could contribute somehow to the resonance you are describing?

[KenC]

Jamie,

This reminds me of a problem I had amplifying my upright bass. The design of an upright is the reverse of a guitar; there is a very sharp down angle and almost no string length above the nut, but a shallow angle and about 8" of string length from the bridge to the tailpiece. My main pickup is a piezo transducer mounted on the bridge. When I started using the pickup for gigs (rather than a microphone) I was getting wolf tones from sympathetic vibration below the bridge. The pickup manufacturer recommended an "after-length damper", which turned out to be a piece of half-inch rubber tubing to thread between the strings below the bridge. It worked like a charm, even if it is a bit ugly. I'd bet you could get the same result on your ASATs by using a short length of electrical zip tie, which you could probably color to match the headstocks.

Thinking back to a course on vibration and acoustics in grad school, I want to say that more of a "break angle" over the nut could prevent the sympathetic vibrations from carrying through to the main length of the string and being amplified. If you did that with a string tree, you would change the resonant length of the string above the nut and probably eliminate the vibration at that frequency. I have an older Epiphone electric (from before they were copies of Gibson models), and it was made with a very extreme back angle on the headstock to prevent just this problem.

I understand the frustration this can cause. I bought my first-ever new electric guitar last year - a very pretty Godin archtop - but the vibrations behind fretted notes drove me crazy. That guitar went back to the dealer to be replaced by my first G&L guitar (an ASAT Classic), so the frustration turned out very nicely in the end. I have noticed a weird resonance with all of my G&Ls at times when I play sitting down, but I just realized last night that it happened when I propped a method book open between my thigh and the guitar's body. The vibration was actually coming from the interface between book and guitar.

Ken

[KenC]

Here are a couple of photos of the "after-length damper". Hopefully this won't violate the non-G&L porn rule for this board. I just wanted to give an idea of what it looks like in practice.





As beautifully simple as uprights are, they can get really junky when modern electronics rear their heads...

Ken

(Edited to make it work right)

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

.


1. When restringing the guitar, thread each string through a small narrow diameter piece of clear heat shrink tubing.

2. Position the HST on the headstock side of the nut with room for the string to move for bending.

3. Apply heat to get a snug fit.

You could also just use small pieces of black electrical tape in an emergency.


.

[blargfromouterspace]

Hey Ken, thanks for that. I've seen similar things on double basses, they really are a PITA once you get amplification involved. I think I'll adapt something similarly simple to the guitar. Simple stuff is almost always the best.

I wonder if the nut could contribute somehow to the resonance you are describing?

I think it might, but as far as I can tell they're cut pretty damn nicely. The only way I can imagine modifying the nut to stop the vibration is to have it pinching the string on the headstock side, and then you're gonna get either (a) tuning problems or (b) a Floyd Rose


I'll add here that this is only an issue when recording - on stage or in rehearsing, where there's a drummer and drunk people everywhere it matters not.

[NickHorne]

I know this one.
It can simply be transferred to the strings behind the nut, via the structure of the neck, and if the length behind the nut can vibrate at a harmonically-related frequency, it can be quite strong. As you say, you can damp it out with felt or foam if it bothers you.
it can also be one of the finer points of cutting nut slots. First experienced it on a Fender CS Donahue Tele in 1990's.
If the string only rests on a very short bit of the base of the slot, then the movement on the playing side can get transferred (waggled) to the headstock side.

BUT, as a complete lateral, may just be worth a moment with a cold one to think about this:
As a longtime enjoyer of Jerry Donahue, I used to wonder how he bent behind behind the nut so much without succumbing to the physical pain in the fingers, until I actually asked him: his mind-opening reply was that he has to ration-out his pain-tolerance over an evening, and his is as human as everyone else's. This set me thinking of ways to get around the problem, as I had also just recently found behind-nut bending to be great fun in open (slide) tunings.
I've found a type of surgical tubing, known as Tygon, with a .020" bore. There must be other similar brands / types available around the world; I haven't made this one split at all yet. I now often fit it over plain strings behind the nut, with a careful dot of adhesive if necessary to keep it from moving about and getting under the string tree (I only fit it between the nut and the tree, with a very approximate 1/4 inch left bare either end, and similarly on the 3rd string).
It realy does spread the load of behind-the-nut bends wonderfully; fingertip peace! Virtually painless benderama...
It also completely damps out sympathetic noises-off. Only fits the top 3 strings, of course, but I've never yet been bothered by significant sympathetics from the bottom 3, must be too short and stiff.

[darwinohm]

Nick, interesting description of the problem and solution. I have never seen anyone bend strings above the nut but I live in a cave. That would sound cool. Have the bandaids on standby.-- Darwin

[NickHorne]

I first had my jaw dropped by Donahue in 1970's, (without understanding what I was hearing, which was a sort of Rock & Roll / Scruggs Banjo / Tele music) and only a few years ago found my own guitaring motivating me to attempt anything like it.
Rapidly found I was a limp wimp at this sport (though, as I wrote, recordings do deceive and JD in the flesh was encouragingly human).
The Tele certainly has a nice behind-the-nut carve for it.
Can also do it fine on my Danelectro too, however. Also fun with harmonics.

BUT, as you say, bandaids for more than occasional excursions. The tubing really works, though. I imagine pretty much any kind would work for a while, but I trust the Tygon not to slice me unexpectedly....

[Philby]

If the string only rests on a very short bit of the base of the slot, then the movement on the playing side can get transferred (waggled) to the headstock side.

That sounds entirely feasible to me. i.e. the strings are not contacting enough of the nut surface to dampen their vibration behind the nut.

I'm impressed that you've met Jerry Donahue. He's one of a very few guitar heroes of mine. A large number of my LP's/CD's from the 80's and 90's have JD sitting in as a session player. Like you, I didn't quite know what I was hearing or how he did it but Youtube has educated me recently. I think I read that JD uses extra light strings (8's), so the high strings must be like razor wire when he bends them behind the nut.

Great idea with the Tygon tubing. I work in a lab and we have heaps of the stuff, so I'm going to try it next time I change strings. You can also get slightly harder tubing called PEEK in the same diameter which is still flexible, but should never split.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

Nick, interesting description of the problem and solution. I have never seen anyone bend strings above the nut but I live in a cave. That would sound cool. Have the bandaids on standby.-- Darwin

Darwin,

Your PRS Johnny Hiland is designed to bend a perfect whole note behind the nut.

Here is a sample of bending behind the nut. Look at the index finger of the fret hand. He talks about using very light gauge strings and the red straw from a WD40 can in the beginning.

[youtube]zWOAETbj0CU[/youtube]

[NickHorne]

Thanks for the Peek link, I must try it.
And should mention that I love bending harmonics.
I was very lucky that Jerry Donahue did a one-man clinic at a little theatre only 50 miles from my home, a couple of years ago. He was really generous with his time and energy, and made himself available for us to speak to him again individually afterward. He certainly does have some seriously-developed performance firepower to back up his musical imagination.
He told us he had used very light sets in the past, but had now been using .0095 or .010 thru .046, in stainless, for some years. I had to agree they were giving his Tele (Omniac) a very well-balanced sound.
He cuts / files Herco heavy thumpicks to make a very short, captive pick which he can use both upwards and downwards, sometimes involving the flesh of his thumb as well, and with or without the index finger (like a plectrum), and he fingerpicks freely.
Not really a techy man, was my impression, much more keen to be driving the thing than fiddling under the hood; he's just applied himself to solving obstacles.
He told us he first got excited about bending when his dad (I think it was) took him to hear a player whose trick it was to bend the open 2nd string up a tone to make the major 3rd of an A chord whilst fingering the rest of the triad. JD did then of course go on to explore bending in some very adventurous and uncharted directions. One of my very few "heroes" too; good discovery that he's a really nice guy to meet.

[NickHorne]

Just to add a quick one re Ken C's issue with "back-buzz" behind fretted notes; this is one of guitar setups more obscure variables, and is a function of nut slot height and neck relief (and string gauge too).
A whole range of behind-the-fret behaviour can be invoked, ranging from a clearly vibrating string length when there's relief in the neck, via a buzzy version of the same thing, to a pretty-much-strangled mini-buzz, or even silence, when the neck is close to straight and the nut low. These all result from the settings we make to (primarily) affect the dynamic range we can get out of the speaking length of the string and / or adjust the action for our fretting hand.
It's really subjective! I find Martins, with a bit more action to them, can produce noises-off but none that bother me, but also Gibsons, set up closer and looser, don't bother me either, but for different reasons, I'm pretty sure.
Relates to electrics, too, in their somewhat different dynamic-range universe.
All part of the meditation of attempting to make peace with our delightfully non-perfectable instrument? Could just be....

[darwinohm]

I finally had a chance to view this video and it is cool. Tygon tubing would be good for this to start with. I am going to try this. Who needs a b-bender ??? I must confess that the first finger is my sore joint finger so this will probably be a flash in the pan for me!-- Darwin