Dream custom shop guitar update: MFD experts needed!

[neutralomen]

Hey everyone! I hope you are all safe and sound and not GAS'ing too hard during this crazy time. On that subject, I was finally able to snag a G&L Cavalier, which brings me one step closer towards my now-infamous ASAT custom shop dream guitar.



I know. Those of you who know me are tired of this image by now, but bear with me.

I've been hoping to find a Donor to lend me the Cavalier pickup covers so that I could have them 3d scanned and printed in white. Unfortunately, nobody was able to help me and I got tired of waiting. I got myself a really nice Natural Ash Cavalier with a maple board and black headstock(I've never seen one that color before). Not my usual style, but it's growin on me! Anyway, I digress.

After getting my white pickup covers made, the next phase is to have custom pickups made to go under the hood. Why not just use the Cavalier pickups, you ask?

1. They're a LITTLE too bright and low output, but not by much.
2. I'd like shiny new pole pieces
3. I'd like 4 conductor construction for splitting options.

G&L was nice enough to send me 24 set screws and ribbed pole pieces so that I can properly do a restoration of these old rusty pole pieces under the hood. I got bobbin material from Stewmac. Without further ado, here's where MFD experts come in.

I like the MFD technology. I want these custom pups to still follow the same basic construction. I want the G&L pole pieces(because to me that MAKES the look of a G&L), I want the ceramic bar magnet supplying the field to the soft iron poles because I like the compressed sound and low signal-to-noise ratio. Basically, I want to make hot-rodded MFDs. I'll probably go through Lindy Fralin or Rio Grande(any recommendations would be more than welcome).

MFD experts:
who can tell me the deal with the resistance number vs output on these things. From what I understand, DC resistance doesn't really mean much when it comes to the overall output of the MFD technology. It seems like much lower DCR gets equivalent output from traditional pickups. In other words, these Cavalier pups are only 4.5 DCR but they're almost as hot as a JB. That said, they're brighter and lack the richness and beef I want.

I'm afraid if I tell the pickup maker to just go by sheer numbers, the pickup will be way too hot and dark. As it is, I find the best tone is when the pickups are far away from the string. That's how I get that syrupy rich sound i'm looking for.

I want these pickups to darken up and get louder but only ever so slightly. Does anyone have advice on how to achieve this? I imagine if, say, some 60s gibson pups are like 8K, I'd want these MFDs to be what, 7?

If anyone can break down how the MFDs work in terms of what numbers start to darken them too much/make them too gainy, that would be a huge help. I'm confused because ASAT specials are HOT yet they have a DCR of 4 or so, and the new F100s have a DCR of like 14 and the Doheny V12 is what, 9 or 10? It's all over the map.

I'm looking for something that basically sounds like a medium output gibson in terms of the balance between hotness and maintaining tone, but of course with that special MFD ambient magnetic field effect that makes things pillowy and sparkly.

Bonus round: I'm going to get the PRS 408 wiring. The pickup maker will build a "tap" in the main coil to add 1500 winds(or thereabouts) when the coils are split. So I'd love to know your opinions on good winding numbers/target DCRs for both humbucking and single coil.

Sorry I know this was a long read. Thank you in advance for your help!

[Craig]

You might contact Gabe Dellevigne at his ESI business at tech@electricstringedinstrument.com.
He has experience and knowledge of Leo's MFD technology. He might be able to custom wind those pickups to your specs.

Hope this helps.

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Thanks for the lead! I just wrote him!

[Danley]

I forgot if it had been confirmed before, but had you verified if the stock G&L pickup wiring is parallel or series (ex. do both individual coil DCRs add up to the total humbucker DCR?) With a DCR that low, I can only imagine they're parallel-wired and that is a contributor to the sound. I think it's imperative any pickup winder knows whether the total DCR is measured parallel or series.

My understanding is that pickup strength can be most accurately measured in millivolts - but if you test that with a multimeter, you need a very consistent way of inducing voltage through the magnetic field of a pickup. You'd not be able to compare to anyone else's measurements but the ones on your setup. Besides the wiring configuration and DCR, gauss of the magnet are also something the winder ought to be aware of, as well as the wire gauge used in the coils (43 AWG, 42 etc.) Even the insulating material (to be specific the thickness of coil wire insulation) can have an effect on number of turns vs. size of coil.

Other than that - that's a great looking Cavalier, I'm glad G&L could assist with the poles and think the black/maple is a gorgeous look. BTW Gabe is immensely helpful, cold not have finished my dad's F100 without him.

[neutralomen]

I forgot if it had been confirmed before, but had you verified if the stock G&L pickup wiring is parallel or series (ex. do both individual coil DCRs add up to the total humbucker DCR?) With a DCR that low, I can only imagine they're parallel-wired and that is a contributor to the sound. I think it's imperative any pickup winder knows whether the total DCR is measured parallel or series.

My understanding is that pickup strength can be most accurately measured in millivolts - but if you test that with a multimeter, you need a very consistent way of inducing voltage through the magnetic field of a pickup. You'd not be able to compare to anyone else's measurements but the ones on your setup. Besides the wiring configuration and DCR, gauss of the magnet are also something the winder ought to be aware of, as well as the wire gauge used in the coils (43 AWG, 42 etc.) Even the insulating material (to be specific the thickness of coil wire insulation) can have an effect on number of turns vs. size of coil.

Other than that - that's a great looking Cavalier, I'm glad G&L could assist with the poles and think the black/maple is a gorgeous look. BTW Gabe is immensely helpful, cold not have finished my dad's F100 without him.

Yes all good info. Unfortunately we are quickly exiting my area of basic understanding here.

Bad news on the poles actually. They just arrived today and I guess either special taller female poles were used on the Cav, or they use shorter female poles in general today.

Yet ANOTHER obstacle lol. Hopefully I can maybe take these to a hardware store when things open back up and see if anyone can match the part and find me a taller one.

In re: being wired in series or not, I'm not sure. Although they don't SOUND like they're in parallel, but I don't have much of an ear to really tell the difference.

[Danley]

Overall if you send the pickups to Duncan/Lollar/Creamery/Novak or whoever and give them an idea of what you want changed sonically, I am sure they could accommodate and do the measurement/calculations required

[neutralomen]

Overall if you send the pickups to Duncan/Lollar/Creamery/Novak or whoever and give them an idea of what you want changed sonically, I am sure they could accommodate and do the measurement/calculations required

true but as I say my concern is that the MFDs work a little different. ASAT specials are FRIKKIN loud yet have a DCR much lower than a tele pickup. Ideally I'd need someone with experience in this kind of pickup, no?

[Craig]

Here is a Cavalier E Schematic drawing by Gabe Dellevigne, which is located in our Gallary, Album: Instrument Manuals and Wiring Schematics:

[Danley]

Wow - He even calls out ~4.2k ‘series humbucking,’ so that means each individual coil is only 2.1k DCR or so. That’s amazing, even considering the tiny physical size.

Also- it’s a guess, but the same pickup in the PTB Cavalier (active or passive) will not sound the same in an ASAT with VT controls. They will be loaded differently at least, not sure which direction the difference would go.

[neutralomen]

Wow - He even calls out ~4.2k ‘series humbucking,’ so that means each individual coil is only 2.1k DCR or so. That’s amazing, even considering the tiny physical size.

Also- it’s a guess, but the same pickup in the PTB Cavalier (active or passive) will not sound the same in an ASAT with VT controls. They will be loaded differently at least, not sure which direction the difference would go.

Mine won't be PBT. It'll be ASAT controls. Master volume, master tone. Ideally, I want the master split on the tone pot but I don't see 4-pole pots anywhere so I'll likely need to just do 2 push pulls. I'd like to avoid that but aesthetically it beats a mini toggle. If you look at my concept I'm going for that super clean look.

BTW if anyone knows how I can find longer versions of the female ferrules for the pole pieces that would help although that's a long shot I know.

And yeah that's why I'm confused. For 4.5 DCR they're pretty darn hot. NOt quite as hot as my other humbuckers but certainly not half as hot. I have for instance an EVO 2 which is an insanely hot ceramic pickup and the cavalier has maybe 80% the output although the DCR for the evo 2 is like 16.

That's why I need help because I can't just tell whomever builds the pickup to just go by standard pickup DCR/specs.

[Danley]

I feel like a reputable winder ought to know enough about pickups to figure it out, in total honesty; when all is said and done, the pickup is no more magical than its inductance, resistance, gauss, voltage output, wire gauge and number of winds make it. My assumption is a lot of the output comes from the ceramic magnet vs. alnico, and lack of frequency loss due to comb filtering as a result of the two coils being located on a tiny footprint. But nothing that cannot be measured and enhanced through the math that builders of these pickups use.

If you have pics of the ferrules that may help, I have never looked at any that weren’t in a bobbin.

[neutralomen]

I feel like a reputable winder ought to know enough about pickups to figure it out, in total honesty; when all is said and done, the pickup is no more magical than its inductance, resistance, gauss, voltage output, wire gauge and number of winds make it. My assumption is a lot of the output comes from the ceramic magnet vs. alnico, and lack of frequency loss due to comb filtering as a result of the two coils being located on a tiny footprint. But nothing that cannot be measured and enhanced through the math that builders of these pickups use.

If you have pics of the ferrules that may help, I have never looked at any that weren’t in a bobbin.

Here's how they look. The Cav ones are both taller and slightly larger and in imperial size. this was before the switch to metric I guess.

I've been talking to the fellow Craig recommended and he's been super helpful. He shares my concerns that there are brittle resonant peaks in this technology and has already been advising me on how to build a proper pickup.

We actually need poles that are TALLER than even the cavalier ones. Not sure if we can find them anywhere, or if they need to be machined, or if we can do something cheap and dirty like weld multiple poles together and snip them to size. who knows? But I feel I have a meaningful lead now!

[neutralomen]

update:
After I was advised by ESI about how to pursue a custom pickup, I realized what people mean when they say the Cav. pups sound harsh.

I had been trying it out through an amp sim in headphones, and with some tweaking, got some nice tones.

I tried it in my Fender amp at a loud bedroom volume and I finally got it...

The neck pickup is tolerable, but the bridge pickup, wow. It's got a REALLY ugly resonant peak and it's like super ice picky. Just not a very musical sound. And I keep the pickups low on MFDs.

With some overdrive and some tweaking you can get something tolerable, but they do not have a very good tone inherent in their design IMO.

That said, I still have my heart set on the form factor. Hopefully ESI can lend me more of their expertise and help me build a custom pup. According to him, it's gonna be tall, so the custom white covers I'm having made will be made taller than the stock covers.

I'm learning a lot! Thanks everyone for all your help so far.