Calling all Broadcaster owners.
Please have a look at this inspection sticker and give me an opinion as to its authenticity. I have seen maybe a dozen or more of these and all seem to have similar handwriting. This does not have that handwriting in the date and serial number lines. The Leo Fender signature looks good but I wonder about the other writing.
Perhaps you could post pics of your inspection stickers, especially if the writing matches this one.
Here the inspection stickers in the neck pocket of my 2 Broadcasters (click on them for full-res versions):
You notice the same color pen and the consistency of font and curls. Obviously there are 2 colors on your sticker and the "Leo" looks a bit scrappy. It looks like somebody really pressed hard. I cannot verify from here if somebody "pressed through" a Leo Fender signature which was later filled in with ink. But to test that hypothesis, you can take a thin piece of paper and a pencil and see if there are any grooves on the sticker.
Jos,
It's interesting that it looks like both your stickers were filled in by separate people. Mine is not the same as either. It's actually not mine yet and I cannot see it in hand. Wonder who typically filled these in. The handwriting on you #445 is most typical of the ones I have seen. In fact, it almost looks like Leo's handwriting. Did he ever fill out the dates and serial numbers? I think I have seen both blue and black ink and I'm not too sure about what you say of the signature itself. I did not pick up any weirdness on that but it could be.
I might not be so paranoid but I did read on GG's broadcaster page that there are some good fakes out there so Caveat Emptor. Let's see if I get any other responses with pics. This has a neck date of May 13, 1986 so I guess it would be one of the last produced. I have seen Broadcasters in the registry with numbers into the 1000's though.
FZTNT wrote:... and I'm not too sure about what you say of the signature itself.
Tom,
What I meant about the signature itself is this: for the sake of argument, lets assume the signature is fake. How would I get a fake signature on the sticker? One way of getting this done is using a facsimile (from a picture like the ones above or otherwise), scale it to the right size, print it on paper, and then trace the signature with a pen such that I create a groove on the inspection sticker. This signature is not filled with ink, just a depression. Now I carefully fill this depression with ink and voila!
Jos,
It makes perfect sense. I hope it's not the case here though and the signature is not what raised a red flag for me initially. Do you think it is a fake, done like you mentioned? I am more concerned with the handwriting on the rest of the sticker. I hope some more folks chime in with pics and relevant information. Maybe Tim or some of the other ex-G&L employees have some insight. It's a nice guitar but I would hate to get burned on this. I am trying to get more history from the seller to see if something else either smells funny or gives me better confidence as to the authenticity. Every little bit helps. I might even prefer to get a 1985 production but it's a waiting game.
I can't comment on authenticity, but I can make a comment about this one for I am absolutely sure:
George Fullerton wrote the serial and date. I know his writing (particularly his cursive B's and his numbers always appear almost italic), he filled that one out and Leo signed it.
Last edited by BrockLee on Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm no hand writing expert, but the signature look different. In both example Jos shows the 'o' in Leo is quite a bit taller than the 'e' while in the one in question is similar height as the e. Then the 'F' is also different. The middle line is mainly to the right of the vertical line going towards the e. But in the one in question, it goes primarily rearward (left) towards Leo. I know signatures can evolve, but I just have my doubts on this one. Coupled with a different date format... Caution would be my advise.
Yes Brock, I believe you are correct, it was George Fullerton that filled in most of these stickers. And that is the handwriting I see on most if not all I have seen.
WitSok also makes some sound observations relating to style on the signature. But, as you point out signatures do evolve and change. The examples shown are basically a year earlier that the one I show and yes, has anyone ever seen an obvious forgery?
Good points to ponder, thanks so much.
Please keep examples coming, I don't have much time.
Thanks Elwood,
Seems like the '85 models are pretty consistent. Except for the one in felt pen? Never seen that. But the handwriting and signatures are pretty close on all of these.
I have reached out to the seller to see if he can share any additional info on the history of this guitar. It is registered on this sight but with no owner shown. I wish it were possible to know when instruments were registered and if pics exist in the gallery a link to them would be nice. That's a different story though.
Well. I will continue to gather info and please, anyone else with pics that can post them it would be appreciated, especially ones from the later manufacturer dates in 1986.
I can't remember who it was, but somebody with access to the production logs entered all of the legit Broadcasters into the Registry if they didn't already have an entry. It looks like this one is in there, with a very late production date. Hopefully somebody with a better recall of the details will chime in.
Elwood wrote:I've yet to see a counterfeit BC, it's good to be wary since there are black '86 ASATs that are
almost there.
What was the differences ? How did you spot them ?
I haven't seen a fake(that I know of ). Identifying a fake might entail comparing the signature to others, looking up the serial# on the plate
in the registry and logbook ,double check the unused broadcaster neckplate numbers, looking at the headstock decal with a magnifying glass,etc.
KenC wrote:I can't remember who it was, but somebody with access to the production logs entered all of the legit Broadcasters into the Registry if they didn't already have an entry. It looks like this one is in there, with a very late production date. Hopefully somebody with a better recall of the details will chime in.
Ken
Yes this one is in the registry along with 350 others. Considering the 869 or so made that's only about half. Is it possible that only half of them are in the log book?
Speaking of the log book, could someone with access to it please look up this serial number to see what it says. The registry shows a completion date one day later than the sticker date. If that info comes from the log book it makes it appear more legit. To fake it you would have to know what's in the log book, have the right number neck plate and of course make the sticker. But, if the log book shows a date that is far from what the sticker shows then it's more likely a forgery...right? The neck date is 5/13/1986. So, they finish the neck and date it, finish the body and date it and attach it to the neck, pass it off to sales and Dale enters it the log book the next day.
There are some Broadcasters in the registry with numbers all around this one all with 1985 dates. I guess this illustrates the random use of neck plates.
So, I would greatly appreciate it if those that have access to the log book would chime in and let me know what the log book has to say about BC00876.
Maybe the original could have been damaged or modified and now is being rebuilt to look orginal? It wouldn't be surprising that someone had access to the inspection sticker so to know what to put on it. Not saying this case here. But....
IMO that signature is authentic and not a forgery. Notice how the 'o' in Leo almost has a loop in the upper register… this varies a bit in all the examples shown but is fairly consistent including the one you are questioning. Also in several of the examples 'Leo' if not the whole signature is up and angled in a slant downward to the right and the whole name in one example + the one you have in question go cross below the signature line of the inspection sticker.
In regards to the logbook and how it was used, I wouldn't be surprised that there were many times were a guitar was completed and it was a day or more until it made its way into the log. Not dissing Dale but the man was extremely busy and basically running the show at this point in time.
Elwood wrote: looking at the headstock decal with a magnifying glass,etc.
I would put zero faith in the decal. There were 5000 Broadcaster decals made. The excess are out there. I personally had a dozen of them at one time (and were destroyed, so 12 less).
Katefan wrote:
In regards to the logbook and how it was used, I wouldn't be surprised that there were many times were a guitar was completed and it was a day or more until it made its way into the log. Not dissing Dale but the man was extremely busy and basically running the show at this point in time.
That isn't how or why the logging worked. The real purpose of logging was for accounting. To pay the employee bonuses for the guitars assembled on a particular day, for invoicing, etc. It was done diligently every day just so the money went where it needed to. It really had little to nothing to do with documenting a guitar for prosperity. Any gaps between log entries and label dates is due to the time between the neck was attached, the guitar went through final setup, and passed the final QC and was deemed "done", at which time the guitar was logged, and the employees earned the bonus on that guitar for that day.
Thanks for that explanation BrockLee. It makes perfect sense. Like I said, there is only a day apart from the sticker date and the supposed log date from the registry. My only question now is, who made the entry in the registry and was it in fact based on the log book.
My feelings at this point lean towards this being authentic. I have spoken with the seller at length, it's the second guitar I have bought from him and so far I trust him. He has given me an ironclad return agreement if I find anything wonky when I receive the guitar so Time will tell.
I still would like to know the history of the current registry entry and if in fact it was done en-mass along with many others from knowledge of "the log book".
FZTNT wrote:Thanks for that explanation BrockLee. It makes perfect sense. Like I said, there is only a day apart from the sticker date and the supposed log date from the registry. My only question now is, who made the entry in the registry and was it in fact based on the log book.
My feelings at this point lean towards this being authentic. I have spoken with the seller at length, it's the second guitar I have bought from him and so far I trust him. He has given me an ironclad return agreement if I find anything wonky when I receive the guitar so Time will tell.
I still would like to know the history of the current registry entry and if in fact it was done en-mass along with many others from knowledge of "the log book".
Tom
I suggest you contact HLG as he either has a copy of Dale's Hyatt's Log Book or has access to it, see this post: Dale Hyatt's Log Book.
The registry entries which say "Authenticated from production logs by Dale Hyatt on 9/27/05" were done by a past member jaystrings. He had visited Dale and got that info from him.
This post has some info you might be interested in: Someone from G&L should................. You could also search on other past discussions on the topic, too.
Thank you all for the input. I have been in touch with the seller a lot and have great confidence. I also have validation from "The Log Book" Thanks to a trusted source.
Of course this thread can be left open for any further discussion on the subject of Broadcasters and the good the bad and the ugly of real world authentication there of. I think it's always safe to check into these things as much as possible especially if buying without touching. I cannot express enough, my appreciation for those on this forum who are very kind and happy to pass on the knowledge that they have acquired without hesitation. In a world of "I got mine and you can learn the hard way" it is refreshing to find a group so willing to help a fellow enthusiast and I hope when I have the chance to do the same I will be able to help others.
Thanks again, I will post some pics here and elsewhere once I get this guitar and thoroughly examine it (now turn and cough).
I will post more tomorrow or the next day after I take some photos but I have a feeling there is more to this guitar than we know.
It has the latest completion date of any BC in the registry except for BC01060 Which is listed as 2/4/1987 which I find unlikely to be accurate. There are plenty of BC's with no dates but some of the last ones built were for Dale and George and verified to be completed in early May of 1986. This one, BC00876 is verified as legit by the sales log.
So put your thinking caps on, see what you can find or remember and we can talk about it more soon.
Came across an interesting photo from a colleague of mine while discussing Broadcasters. These things are out there so who knows what evil lurks in the world of fake Broadcasters.
I probably shouldn't chime in here, but after watching my father die, after a long bout with Parkinson's, I have no doubt that Leo's signature would change, if, in fact, he had Parkinson's as I've read. He was probably very frustrated and even the later one's that look normal probably took a lot of effort on his part. Eventually, there would be no ability to sign normally. My father's handwriting was one of the first symptoms. Before he was even diagnosed. Eventually, I had to sign (legally, forge) his checks. We moved him in here for the last five years of his life. The last 2 were in his bed which was right where I'm sitting. 12/6/2012. RIP.
If I'm wrong, and he didn't have Parkinson's, shame on me for not researching further. If I'm right, I am curious about the Wikis that say he died of Parkinson's. You don't just die from it after a full day at work. You end up bedridden, usually for years. You can't even communicate the basics because you lose all muscular control. Including swallowing. Cause of death is often pneumonia due to food going into the lungs (aspiration pneumonia). Appreciate your reflexes. Air, one pipe. Food, the other. It's automatic..... to us normal folk. Does anyone here know the last day Leo showed up for work? I'm really curious. I gotta buy the books.
Anyway. As I said. There is no way in heck he would maintain his signature if he had Parkinson's. I guarantee he knew there was an issue before those around him. Even before his doctor. I also suspect, if in fact he was still working, he died from something else.
Sorry to hear about your Father's fight with Parkinsons. My Mom died from ALS which is similar in some ways, like you said, doesn't happen overnight.
As for Leo I don't know, I suppose I should also read the books. But I can say that the Broadcaster inspection stickers should have stopped being signed by mid 1986 as that is when production stopped (legal Production).
He passed in 1991 some five years latter so a lot could have gone down hill in that time.
). Identifying a fake might entail comparing the signature to others, looking up the serial# on the plate
