Body with no date stamp

[FZTNT]

So I found this Invader in pretty nice shape. Got it home, played as I might expect it to and am quite happy. It needed new strings so while I was at it I took the neck off and there was no date stamp in the neck pocket. The neck itself is stamped July 17th 1986 and the serial number suggests a 1986 production date. What I am wondering is how often back then did a guitar get away without a date stamp. I know it happens but I was somewhat disappointed when I cracked this thing open to discover almost no markings at all under the hood. Just a big blue 4. I will post pics a bit later.

Tom

[yowhatsshakin]

So I found this Invader in pretty nice shape. Got it home, played as I might expect it to and am quite happy. It needed new strings so while I was at it I took the neck off and there was no date stamp in the neck pocket. The neck itself is stamped July 17th 1986 and the serial number suggests a 1986 production date. What I am wondering is how often back then did a guitar get away without a date stamp. I know it happens but I was somewhat disappointed when I cracked this thing open to discover almost no markings at all under the hood. Just a big blue 4. I will post pics a bit later.

Tom

Based on my collection, about 10% of the pre-BBE instruments have no date stamp in the neck pocket. At times the date stamp is hard to read or has disappeared entirely due to work done in the pocket, drill holes, and/or paint/Sharpie residue.

- Jos

[Elwood]

Nice Invader.
On occassion you'll also see a date sticker that looks like it's from a pricing gun.
Glued underneath the clear, either in the pup cavity or the trem cavity if it has a DFV.

[FZTNT]

Not sure I want to pull the Kahler trem but I suppose it's only the four screws. The Pups are easy enough too. Maybe I'll pull them all and give it a nice polish/buff. Regular car wax works ok on this finish doesn't it? It already has some circular swirl marks like you might see on a car finish. Any recommendation for a polisher/cleaner? I have some Music Nomad cleaner/polish/wax stuff that seems to be oily water more than anything else. It really has no polishing component. Maybe I should just leave it alone though, it's not gunky or scratched up any. I figured while it was apart I might do what I can from a wax and protection perspective. I did the walnut oil treatment to the ebony FB and it looks brand new.

I have seen those price gun type date stamps in other photos. Always thought it was an after market thing rather that a factory date stamp. I'll look for one though. Otherwise there does not appear to be any other work or fiddling inside the neck pocket that would have removed or obscured the typical date stamps. I'll bust the thing wide open and se what I find...

Tom

[Elwood]

I love the virtuoso polish. I'll order it with the cleaner next time.

[KenC]

At times the date stamp is hard to read or has disappeared entirely due to work done in the pocket, drill holes, and/or paint/Sharpie residue.

+1. There are usually three dots of paint in the neck pocket of a Leo-era guitar, from holes in the painnting jig. Yours has two of the dots, on either side of the micro tilt plate. It looks like the third was sanded off during the neck fitting. That is right about where the body stamp would have been, so it was most likely sanded off in the process.

I wouldn't be concerned about this. Everything appears to be original, except for a missing locking nut.

Ken

[FZTNT]

Thanks Ken and Jos,

I'm not so much worried as curious. There is a lot to learn about these guitars and you guys are valuable references for sure.

Speaking of locking nuts (insert deeznuts joke here) I see quite a few of this style guitar that had original locking nuts and fine tune vibrato bridges both G&L and Kahler, with the locking nut removed. What is the thought process behind this? Does it mess with the tunability at all? I know that there has to be a certain angle between the nut and the end of the string but is this just to keep the string from slipping out of the groove in the nut or is there a intonation aspect involved. I have the pieces for my yellow Invader and will probably put them back on and wonder if I should get them for this red Invader too. I see them for sale from time to time. What are the general thoughts on this?

Thanks, Tom

[Fumble fingers]

Tom on my Rampage tightening up the lock nut makes it go sharp , just a minor irritation that I didn't want to live with , I had a local tech change mine out to a newer style locking nut that he fabricated the mechanism so it can easily be put back to stock if I choose so

[KenC]

I have two G&Ls with Kahlers (an ASAT and a Superhawk, both from '86). The tuning stability is excellent with the original locking nut, but as Eric pointed out it does pull the strings sharp when it is tightened. It probably took me about 5-10 minutes of experimenting to find the right down tuning to get each string about right after the nut is tightened down. Once it is tightened, just use the fine tuners on the bridge to get the exact pitches. I've never had to use the tuning machines on either guitar except for the initial rough tuning.

Ken

[FZTNT]

That is pretty much my experience in the past with locking nuts. Just wondered why I see so many G&L's with them removed. I actually prefer to use them so I think I will put them back on at some point.

Anyway, Here is the bottom of the bridge pickup with the price sticker date on it. It's on the pup rather than the body but I guess I can still consider it to be a 1986 guitar. I wonder if Schaller put the sticker there or G&L? It follows the european date format.

[Elwood]

The G&L stickers had squared off edges ,not like the fancy european schaller sticker.
Your find does support the '86 biuld date, and shows things weren't on the shelf for too long.
I'm sure that made Dale happy

[KenC]

I have two G&Ls with Schaller pickups - a Superhawk and an SB-1, both from '86 - and they both had those stamps on the pickups. I just checked the SB-1 pickup, which is currently not installed. That date stamp was more than a year prior to the revised SB-1 going into production. Leo must have had that design in mind and the parts on hand for quite a while. He only used the Schallers for the first couple of months of SB-1 production, until they were able to put the split coil bass MFD into production.

Ken

[BrockLee]

Does any one know if the system in place during G&L was the same as CLF Research/Music Man? In the earlier days it was not a production date. It was the date the body or neck was completed and passed QC in the wood shop and was ready to move on to the paint department. I always wondered if G&L maintained the same system.

[KenC]

Does any one know if the system in place during G&L was the same as CLF Research/Music Man? In the earlier days it was not a production date. It was the date the body or neck was completed and passed QC in the wood shop and was ready to move on to the paint department. I always wondered if G&L maintained the same system.

They did maintain the same system. On most of the Leo-era instruments I've owned, it even appears to be the same stamp. The only exceptions I remember seeing were from 1981-82, which had numbers rather than three letters for the month (for example, "10 8 82" instead of "OCT 8 1982"). I remember this showing up on a G-200, and several SC-1s or SC-2s. It's probably just a coincidence, but I think all of the stamps with numeric month codes had single digit dates.

Ken

[Copper Coyote]

Not sure I want to pull the Kahler trem but I suppose it's only the four screws. The Pups are easy enough too. Maybe I'll pull them all and give it a nice polish/buff. Regular car wax works ok on this finish doesn't it? It already has some circular swirl marks like you might see on a car finish. Any recommendation for a polisher/cleaner? I have some Music Nomad cleaner/polish/wax stuff that seems to be oily water more than anything else. It really has no polishing component. Maybe I should just leave it alone though, it's not gunky or scratched up any. I figured while it was apart I might do what I can from a wax and protection perspective. I did the walnut oil treatment to the ebony FB and it looks brand new.

I have seen those price gun type date stamps in other photos. Always thought it was an after market thing rather that a factory date stamp. I'll look for one though. Otherwise there does not appear to be any other work or fiddling inside the neck pocket that would have removed or obscured the typical date stamps. I'll bust the thing wide open and se what I find...

Tom

If you want to Polish/Buff it, I have found that regular automative polish works great. I used 3M Machine Polish finishing material (seen on the right) on this and it made the guitar look basically brand new (except for chips of course).

Thanks Ken and Jos,

I'm not so much worried as curious. There is a lot to learn about these guitars and you guys are valuable references for sure.

Speaking of locking nuts (insert deeznuts joke here) I see quite a few of this style guitar that had original locking nuts and fine tune vibrato bridges both G&L and Kahler, with the locking nut removed. What is the thought process behind this? Does it mess with the tunability at all? I know that there has to be a certain angle between the nut and the end of the string but is this just to keep the string from slipping out of the groove in the nut or is there a intonation aspect involved. I have the pieces for my yellow Invader and will probably put them back on and wonder if I should get them for this red Invader too. I see them for sale from time to time. What are the general thoughts on this?

Thanks, Tom

I use the original locking nut on my Invader. I use the vibrato pretty heavily so it is nice to have to have it secure by the nut. With heavy diving it stays in tune great. If you only use mild vibrato, or slight texture usage, you probably don't need the lock. But for heavy use I find the locking nut necessary.

For the most tuning stability, I put teflon grease in my guitar nut during each re-string, as well as some teflon grease on the saddles. If you ride a bike, you might have some of this around, otherwise, some people use sandpaper and grind pencil graphite into a little batch of vaseline and apply to the nut and saddles. Works amazing to keep the string from seizing either on the nut itself or the saddles.

The main trick for people that have problems with it going sharp after tuning: Put the new strings on, stretch them like you would for any guitar, then tune up using the neck tuners, When you are at your desired tuning then DROP your tuning (using neck tuners) down about a half step, and then clamp down the nut lock. The nut lock will pull you sharp, and get you close to your desired tuning, then you use the fine tuners from there

[FZTNT]

Hey Coyote,
Yeah, both my Invaders came with the locking nuts removed and replaced with locking tuners. Not sure all the pros and cons of either but don't need both. I have the original non-locking tuners so I could go either way. I am inclined to go with the locking nuts but it's a bit more work to re-do the tuners.

I like the idea of the machine polish and will look for it locally as I would prefer not to order on line. Any idea of a retail chain that carries it? It appears as if it leaves no wax or potentially protective layer behind but in reality, Will I leave my guitars out in the weather...NOT. My yellow Invader has some dark discoloration between the pickups that appears to be imbedded into the finish. I will try to photograph it some day but it's hard to see in photos. Maybe just the right light like outdoors. It's like when someone puts a sticker on the body and leaves it there for years then removes it. Except it's way too scattered and random to be a sticker. You can't see it in this picture.



I use something I saw years ago for greasing the nuts and the Trem plate. I have graphite powder that I mix with some plain chapstick and work it in with a toothpick. Works great but I will be on the lookout for some teflon grease, seems a bit easier, thanks.

Your Ivader looks real good and I know how it sounds. I still need to do a sustain test between my DFV Invader and my Kahler Invader. Need time to be able to really crank it up and get the patented Carlos Santana Head Tilt Sustain Mojo going!!

Tom

[Copper Coyote]

Yeah, the 3M finesse it machine polish is pretty abundant. I think you can get it in most car shops, even Wal-Mart. I may have gotten mine at a Wal Mart or O'Reilly's. I used it because I did a nitro finish on one of my other guitars, used the machine polish to buff it to a high shine. After that I just use the standard Dunlop 65 guitar polish for protection.

Interesting about the varying fade on your guitar. I wonder if the previous owner stored it by a window that had something blocking the incoming sunlight, like a tree or a bush?

How do you like the Kahler compared to the FT-DFV? I have seen some Invaders with the Kahler that I have been interested in, but I sometimes read horror stories about Kahler vibratos, so I never pull the trigger. You notice any difference in tone between the 2 guitars, or is it pretty indiscernible?

[Fumble fingers]

Interesting about the varying fade on your guitar. I wonder if the previous owner stored it by a window that had something blocking the incoming sunlight, like a tree or a bush?

I wonder about that too ..... I have a mid 90's S500 listed as white from the factory but it looks more like Vintage white that is yellowed quite a bit , but some corners and edges of the neck pocket are even more yellow than other area's ...... I've cleaned it thinking maybe tobacco stains but there are no signs of tobacco stains or burns anywhere on it and it won't clean off .... it's just the way it is somehow

[Craig]

Interesting about the varying fade on your guitar. I wonder if the previous owner stored it by a window that had something blocking the incoming sunlight, like a tree or a bush?

I wonder about that too ..... I have a mid 90's S500 listed as white from the factory but it looks more like Vintage white that is yellowed quite a bit , but some corners and edges of the neck pocket are even more yellow than other area's ...... I've cleaned it thinking maybe tobacco stains but there are no signs of tobacco stains or burns anywhere on it and it won't clean off .... it's just the way it is somehow

Vintage White was not added to the available colors until 2001. Only White and Pearl White were available in the mid-90's.
Likely just natural aging changed the White color to what you see now.

[FZTNT]

I get what both of you are saying about the fading. I have seen many white guitars that have yellowed in random seeming areas, maybe due to uneven paint or clear coat. Mine is faded in such an odd pattern that it's almost like a cleaning rag was left on it, right on the strings for an extended period. The color is the original and the rest of the guitar faded around it. It has been real yucky here in DC so I won't have a chance to get it into natural light for a few days but I will try to post pics soon. Not that it's a pressing matter, just interesting. I do not think any buffing will remove it.

As far as the DFV and Kahler differences, I almost think the Kahler sustains better. The tone on each is a bit different with the DFV being a bit earthier if that makes sense. The Kahler has more of a steel sounding chime and is not quite as warm. It's really hard to A/B them by myself and I don't have my recording system setup currently. I certainly wouldn't shy away from the Kahler though. I was looking at a Superhawk recently that has a Kahler bridge but the sellerr turned into a dick suddenly because I asked too many questions. It's tough buying on line and I need to have answers when the seller holds back on certain basic options that should be disclosed up front. Oh Well...I would still like to find a Superhawk in good shape, Kahler or otherwise.

Tom