straightening bowed neck SC-3

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:42 am

Hi All, I need some help please. I was not happy with the amount of truss rod tension needed to try to correct the relief of this SC-3 neck, it was higher than i wanted to apply yet the neck still had a bit too much relief. I took the strings off and relieved the truss rod then had a look with an old straight edge i found. The result wasn't nice, there is a bow in the neck as shown in these pictures that surly is excessive, the rule was resting on the frets at either end. Has anybody had experience straightening these by applying heat and clamps and was it successful, alternativly should i just apply a load to partially over corrected the bow ( fretboard a bit convex ) and let time do its job, if that is the case would it work going into a winter when no high temperatures are expected and how long might it take to reset the bow.
Any suggestions would be great, i don't want to destroy this lovely neck, its in great condition except for the bow.
http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Geoff ... g.html?o=0
http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Geoff ... g.html?o=1
http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Geoff ... g.html?o=2
Cheers and thank you
G

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:31 am

Geoff, I have had this issue on some Fenders. I had a John Mayer neck with a lot of bow. I took it to a tech who had experience and the equipment to steam it. The neck has a rosewood fretboard and the steaming process softens the glue in the neck/fretboard joint. This joint relocates a bit under the heat and tension applied to the neck. The heat and steaming also allows the neck to straighten under pressure. Many times it will fix the issue. It only cost me $25 and it did save the neck. They will sometimes return to a bit of a bowed condition after time but not always. -- Darwin

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:53 am

Hi Darwin, ty for your reply.
I read about steaming but wondered how a gloss coated neck would react to steaming or can they steam only the fretboard. I read that maybe the glue on these early necks (1991) might not respond well to a heat treatment method, could the fretboard glue break down and not reset after the treatment. If it would only cost me $25 to get it fixed by a pro then i would happily pay that but in Australia i think it would be much much more, i will ring a few luithiers and see what they quote though. Do you think this era glue will be ok to heat?.
cheers
G

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:25 am

Jeff, I have no idea about the glue but the treatment did not affect the poly on the Fender neck at all. You cannot tell it has been worked on. . -- Darwin

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:03 am

Thanks Darwin, that is encouraging
I am so tempted to do something like this picture and then boil up a large pot of water and spend some time moving the whole neck backwards and forwards over it. The unknown for a virgin doing this is the steaming time, how hot and wet do i actually let it get. Should i wrap it in a towel or the likes during the steaming process. What amount of concave do i dial in during the heating, there are so many variables and unknowns here i think i will wait till hopefully some other suggestions or answers to these questions are posted. I will try to talk to some pro's here in Oz through the week.
http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Geoff ... a.jpg.html
Cheers and thanks again, goodnight for now, bed time here

Geoff

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:21 am

sry, i meant to say convex in the last post, i'm tired and brain is not working well,,

,

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:23 am

I do almost everything guitar related myself. I would not attempt to do this. It apparently requires a chamber designed with a clamping mechanism to apply the proper tension and temp/humidity control to do this without damage. I was told it takes about 24 hrs and a proper cooling cycle to get desired results. It is beyond my expertise and I do not have the equipment to do it. -- Darwin

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:40 pm

Thanks Darwin for your input again. I have sent a mail with pictures to Alan Rigg here in Sydney and will see what he has to say about it.
I will let you know what his reply is.
Cheers
Geoff

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:58 pm

This is an interesting 3 page post, http://ozbassforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7606
I guess I still need to know what sort of fretboard glue was used in 1991 and how it will responed to heat. Could Craig help me with this question do you think.
I sort of thought that there could well be many Leo era necks out there that have had issues, has anyone else had a not perfect neck and did you have it fixed sucessfully. I guess i could well be the only bloke on earth thats gets a bendy, i have that sort of luck,, lol,, but i dont think i am,,

Cheers
Geoff

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:45 pm

well the bad news from Alan is that there's not much i can do about it, just tension it as much as i can then shave down the frets from 17 to 22 to stop the buzz i get when lowering the action. there is definatly an issue with neck hook up where it joins the body, admittedly a small amount but it is there. i did try shimming the neck end only to correct the hook but it messed up things elsewhere. I will think about it a bit and let you know the outcome.
Cheers
Geoff

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:30 am

Geoff, have you considered ordering a Tribute neck from the online store? -- Darwin

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:19 am

Hi Darwin,
That thought hadn't crossed my mind, ty for the idea but i really want to keep the guitar as original as possible, it is a beautiful looking neck and in lovely condition, just a bit bent. To that end i will try to do something with it, i'm a stubborn guy and sort of believe if it could be bent this way by stress and/or heat then i just cant see why it cant be stressed or heated back to straight. This guitar came from north Queensland and it gets bloody hot there, i'm suspecting it was left strung tight in a very hot enviroment and that could well be the culprit in this case though i didn't think it could bend this much unless the truss rod was relieved in tension. I am a bit confused about how it did happen actually. I will read up as much info as i can and think about the best approach to try and fix this. I will let you know the outcome but nothing can happen for a few weeks yet as i'm in the middle of moving house.
Cheers
Geoff

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:49 am

darwinohm wrote:Geoff, have you considered ordering a Tribute neck from the online store? -- Darwin

No NO NO !! Blaspheme !!

( I see geoff isn't going to do this, but I had to speak up anyway )

y2kc · Post by **y2kc** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:40 pm

Hello,

Just guessing here but steaming a neck to the point of the adhesives getting soft seems impossible. Is the steam going through the finish on the neck or the rosewood or ebony on top? Does the the neck just twist into a pretzel at the point the heat does it's magic?

I have, in the past ,used mechanical measures to help correct a bad neck but have not used the heat and water method. It might do something.

I really enjoy these guitars and sometimes it is a challenge to set them up. Without seeing the the guitar it is impossible to tell you what to do. I have seen very few G&L necks that could not be helped.

y2kc

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:03 pm

Y2k, when I had mine done they referred to it as steaming. As I understand it is done in a chamber with heat and humidity at a temperature that softens the glue and doesn't damage the neck. A backbow is applied in a jig and after the heating process for a predetermined time it is then allowed to cool under tension. Geoff supplied a link that explains it quite well. It sure makes sense to me.

Geoff, it seems to me that you complaint is a lot of tension on the truss rod. If you have run out of adjustment travel, I would remove the nut and put some washers in. That has worked well for me on a couple of necks. If they have ski slope, that is a whole different issue and requires removal of the frets and some planeing. I am not convinced that is a good solution for that problem either. -- Darwin

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:15 pm

I just spent 30 minutes writing a reply and i logged in before doing that, when i submitted it I was asked to log in again so i did, but presto, all i had written had disappeared, am i the only guy that this has happened to, it really pisses me off, it's the 3rd time this has happened to me, WHY is it so and please fix if you can that end.
I will reply after i have calmed down now, so much effort to write a good reply and its gone.
Geoff

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:41 pm

That sucks !
There is a 'stay logged in' box , works most the time.
Sometimes you can hit back button and get back to the text...that's a hail mary, but it
works sometimes.

breathing is good

elwood

Post by **Craig** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:59 pm

geoff douglas wrote:I just spent 30 minutes writing a reply and i logged in before doing that, when i submitted it I was asked to log in again so i did, but presto, all i had written had disappeared, am i the only guy that this has happened to, it really pisses me off, it's the 3rd time this has happened to me, WHY is it so and please fix if you can that end.
I will reply after i have calmed down now, so much effort to write a good reply and its gone.
Geoff

See: Session timeouts - losing post while creating it?.

Hope this helps.

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:33 pm

Thank you for the info regarding timing out Craig, I wish I knew that before, better late than never I guess and sorry for getting pissed off about it. Maybe a site message saying you’re about to be timed out might be helpful for the members or possibly extend the timeout time, either are easy to do.

In the mean time, I have a new procedure, I will write my replies in MS word and then paste in the forum, that should save me some frustration, lol. OK, back to the topic

I am with you Elwood, changing the neck is not an option I would consider, it would devalue the guitar a lot in my opinion, it just wouldn’t be a true Leo era instrument anymore, at worst case this guitar is still suitable as a collector item if not a great player. I think in time no collector of Leo era gear can be without a SC-3 so I think even a wall flower if original has some worth, would you agree with me there.

I too wonder about steam penetration Y2kc for coated necks, this guitars fretboard is sprayed with it as well so same issue there, poor steam penetration. I am now actually thinking a bit about the fretboard having been sprayed with the coating and wondered if this could be contributing to shrinkage from drying out to much, almost no moisture penetration area on it at all is the case. I am seriously thinking of stripping the fretboard completely and thoroughly moistening it up. I will get some expansion I think of the board and this could aid my situation In the long run. Any thoughts on this guys is appreciated. I am going to have a go at this neck and I will make sure if either wet or dry heat is used that I don’t get to glue let go temps, the pretzel effect would be good to see though, you’re a funny bugger Y2kc, but with someone else’s neck of course, lol Thanks for your thoughts

Thanks too Darwin for your comment about the washers, I had actually done that to confirm I hadn’t bottomed out and it hadn’t, I am actually satisfied with the relief that I can achieve with the truss rod load I am able to apply, and I do bend the neck when adjusting the nut to ease all mechanically during adjustment but it is the total amount of turns from take up not just the torque applied to the nut that’s needed to straighten this thing up that concerns me. There is also a second issue with this neck that I haven’t mentioned, I was hoping to fix it too with a total neck straightening . This issue is when looking down the neck from the body end, with the truss rod tensioned, the right-hand side of the fretboard is effectively straight, relief considered, but looking down the base side there is a rise in the frets towards the body from around the 17th fret up to the 22nd. Though it’s small, it is just visible to the eye when compared with the other side and if not corrected all those frets will need fret shaving to eliminate string buzz for the lower action I want to achieve.
With the truss rod relieved the rise in the frets is the same so the wood has been set in this current shape. Its odd that it is only the base side that has this problem. I wonder now how the forces of the truss rod are applied this end. If a higher than normal compressive load is applied to the wood by the truss road securing assy , could it cause localised distortion, I think maybe it could, does anyone have any thoughts about this as well. This area of the neck where it bolts on to the body is not coated with anything at all, only the fretboard area on top is not exposed so steaming might well be an option here to correct the problem. Making sure not to bugger the good side is another thing completely, lol, it’s a fun world isn’t it,,

So that’s where I will start I think, strip the fretboard, moisten it and allow it to grow, then when the time is available I will have a go at straightening this beautiful thing that it is,, it’s a lovely neck to play and to look at, it deserves some effort to correct it im my way of looking at it and I think most would agree with me.

Cheers
Geoff

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:38 pm

Thanks for your tip Elwood re the stay logged in box, bloody modern technology, i think i will stick with the MS word method now though cause knowing my luck, presto, all gone, yet again. You have to laugh don't you, we would all be bloody mad otherwise,,lol,
Cheers again
Geoff

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:46 pm

OH, i had mentioned the raised fret issue briefly back a few posts but forgot i did, sorry about that chief, lol
Cheers
G

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:30 am

geoff douglas wrote:
So that’s where I will start I think, strip the fretboard, moisten it and allow it to grow, then when the time is available I will have a go at straightening this beautiful thing that it is,, it’s a lovely neck to play and to look at, it deserves some effort to correct it im my way of looking at it and I think most would agree with me.
Cheers
Geoff

The link you provided showed success with a homebrew dry heat method , that looks like it could work.
I'd leave the finish on , figuring it might slow any release of water from the neck while applying heat.

I'd be wary of introducing much moisture into the wood , the three pieces (fingerboard and 2 halves)will absorb it differently and when the glue slips, it might also slip in the back due to the bi-cut construction.
I'm just thinking out loud . Go slow...Clamp well

It sounds it will be decades before yours is a wallflower , sometimes they need more help forgetting they were a tree.
elwood

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:38 am

Hi Elwood, re the stripping of the coating, i was only going to strip the fretboard, not the whole neck, the thought being to swell the fret board only with some humidity. I have read some of the community use oils of various types to do this very thing, maintain a degree of moisture content in the wood, just like wooden boats need. I will get the vernier out and measure the area in question around the 17th to 22nd frets and look for any actual thickness change in that area. If it has distorted, maybe by truss rod pressure i dont think any amount of twisting or bending will be able to fix that area. It might well be the case that the frets be pulled and that whole area leveled with some abrasive paper or the like. I am still thinking and reading and with the forums input as well a decision will eventually made as to how best fix this problem. I cant do anything for at least 2 week so their is time to think still.
Please continue to input guys, any and all information is good information in my book.
cheers
Geoff

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:36 am

And i think your right Elwood about getting excess moisture in the neck, sorry i forgot to reply with that. The more i think about it the more i think i will try the dry heat method and strategically located clamps to attempt the neck bow correction. Its a far safer approach for a first attempt, that and some fretboard growth through moisturising might well do the trick.. Then maybe a fretboard skim near the neck joint area if needed to fix the fret raise in that area. I just hope i don't mess it up more than it is at the moment, i guess we will see in time,,
Cheers Geoff

y2kc · Post by **y2kc** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:27 am

The concept of getting the glue to turn liquid and then having it all somehow reposition itself into a working neck seems far fetched.

So let me get this right. Is the truss rod just not turning? Does it turn the other way? Have you used any lubricant on the threads? Have you backed off the truss rod, flipped the neck over, put a block under each end , gently clamp the middle down (for days) and retightened the rod?

I guess I am just a non believer when it comes to making glue "slide" and reposition itself with any control. Remember the glue has cured decades ago and is part of the guitar now. What would it actually take to make old glue get soft and then cure properly again? I would talk to some luthiers about this before steaming because there might be another approach.

Sc-3's are really nice guitars and I would not give up on that neck,

y2kc

Fumble fingers · Post by **Fumble fingers** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:30 am

if a washer fixes the truss rod then your done .... put a washer on it and go

glvourot · Post by **glvourot** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:45 am

There are just too many variables that have to go just right. I too am skeptical about the glue question. If you proceed, get a pro to do it. You did after all, say " it is a lovely neck to play and to look at ". Call it a quirk of a 30 year old guitar.

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:42 pm

Hi Guys,
Y2kc the truss rod works fine and i have no intention of using heat at a temperature high enough to melt the glue on the fretboard.. I will heat only the back section of the neck, not the fretboard area. From what i have read so far is if heat is not used then the wood itself will not reset to the desired straight position, if not heated the woods memory will slowly reshape itself to the bowed condition. My aim is to have a straight neck with zero truss rod tension. As far i i can see this neck is made of one piece of wood, excluding the fretboard. I have a link to some pictures below that show the issues i have and neck structure.
Hi Fumbles, the truss rod is fine, washers will not fix this problem.
glvourot, i understand your concerns and the variables involved, i will make a well considered decision before any attempt to straighten this neck. The pictured links are below, i wont list them all, i think you can use the arrow in photobucket to see the others and sorry for the poor focus
http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Geoff ... sort=3&o=3
Cheers
Geoff

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:46 pm

I think you need to open the link in a new tab to work properly
Cheers
G

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:12 pm

just to clarify my aim, i want a straight neck with no strings fitted and zero truss tension as a good starting place before setup.
Cheers
G

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:39 pm

An interesting 3 page post about some G&L neck issues i just found. The neck on this SC-3 is definitely one piece of wood, not bi-cut.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=521930
Cheers
G

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:40 pm

geoff douglas wrote:Hi Guys,
As far i i can see this neck is made of one piece of wood, excluding the fretboard.

You can see the Bi-cut (two pieces) in this picture , sometimes it is almost impossible to see the seam.

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:46 pm

lol, i must have beaten your post Elwood by a second.
Mate, i have looked at this neck with a magnifying glass and i cant see a join anywhere at all, I will look again but i think it's one bit of wood. Cant Craig verify this?.
Cheers
G

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:55 pm

geoff douglas wrote:lol, i must have beaten your post Elwood by a second.
Mate, i have looked at this neck with a magnifying glass and i cant see a join anywhere at all, I will look again but i think it's one bit of wood. Cant Craig verify this?.
Cheers
G

No need, some of us are in the know. Look again at the pic I posted. The seam is to the left of center ( they put the truss rod in one side and glued the sides back together. The earliest G&L's had skunk stripe necks , that was only until '82 or so.
It was spooky how yours and my posts collided

I should also note that your neck was dated a month before Leo passed , that's gotta add a little mojo ; )
What's the body date?

elwood

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:07 pm

Hi Elwwod, yes it was a close call wasnt it, post collision almost,,lol,
Well your right, its bi-cut. I only looked at the neck area itself, i followed grains and all, maybe i better get some glasses as well with my magnifying glass, lol. I just put a pic up from the end of the neck and there is a grain shift for sure. Its very well joined i must say, you would never know it looking from the back only of the neck.
http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Geoff ... r.jpg.html
ok, back to moving house, ty again Elwood for your help
Cheers
Geoff

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:11 pm

And yes Elwood, she's one of the last Leo era SC-3's, all the more reason to get her as she should be, mojo and all,

Peace be with you Leo
Geoff

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:21 pm

I cant make out the date, its the 22nd of something, Feb, March?, not sure. Here's a pic but you need to save it then magnify to see clearly. Can you work it out, no glasses here yet, lol
http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/Geoff ... r.jpg.html
OK, work definitely now,
Cheers
Geoff

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:30 pm

geoff douglas wrote: OK, work definitely now,

Get back to work !! (just kidding...more power to ya

)

My vote is for MAR 22 1991 , what do others see?

Have you posted the serial ?

elwood

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:05 am

I found a very experienced guy who was willing to chat about neck issues and just got off the phone from talking with him.
He explained that the area of the neck where it is bolted to the body will never conform to the rest of the necks relief curve as its solidly bolted to a flat surface, the body. The actual neck relief on most necks he said starts from around fret 14, 15 where the neck is no longer bolted flat to the body and can flex. The area from 15th fret to 22nd fret he said on many guitars, not just G&L's are prone to the fret rise issues like i have, he suggests fret leveling is the best way to go in this area if the rise isn't too bad. He said he has tried cold load straightening but the necks always went back to where they were after a while, he didnt say how long that was.
So this is my thoughts so far,
I will try cold and hot cycling the neck after clamping slowly to what i think is needed, ie a bit of convex bow. How the neck is secured at the bolt on end, frets 15 to 22 will be critical as far as i can see, i dont think i can just let the neck pivot at 2 points and load in the centre, i need to try to correct the bow in the neck from the 15th fret back to the nut it seems and it makes sense after talking with this guy. I will look at it at the time and see what might be needed shim and clamp wise, there's a bit of thought needed here. Any input re this would again be greatly appreciated
Cheers
Geoff

geoff douglas · Post by **geoff douglas** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:17 am

Sorry Elwood, yes both my sc-3's are in the registry, the red one's neck is perfect, straight as an arrow.
Another thing about the black ones neck is the nut has been filed to accept thicker strings, i had to pack the base E and A to get some fret clearance before. These necks dont have a lot of wood in them so i wonder if the added string tension might have contributed to the neck being bowed. Is this probable, should others be aware that thick strings on these thin necks might cause issues in time?.
Cheers
Geoff