Tuning going sharp

[StevenMikel]

I've had this problem off and on over the years .I have a Comanche that I'll tune up and after a while the tuning goes sharp across all of the strings.In the past I remedied this by letting the trem out a little by loosening the 2 screws at the trem claw. I recently changed strings and decided to tune down a half step so,I let the trem out a little before I started changing strings. I've had to let the trem out quite a bit and my tuning is still going sharp.I have a little bit of room left to loosen the screws at the claw but not much. I'm wondering if there isn't something else going that's causing this. I've taken my guitar to a local tech several times and he couldn't find anything wrong. I'm using the same brand and gauge of strings I've used for the past 2 years,the only thing different is that I'm tuning down a half step.

[GentlemanJim]

I have a couple of questions first before I make a comment. Where do you live and how is the humidity in around your area and home. Do you keep you guitar out or in a case.
Mechanics move but so does wood.

[Elwood]

My guess is that it's binding at the nut, holding some tension behind the nut (if that's the case you wouldn't want to
decrease the spring tension, that might make things worse). Is the bridge plate parallel to the body?
If your sure the nut is shaped (and lubed) well, then you would want to check for any rubbing in the tremelo assembly ( sometimes it can catch the pickguard lip just barely ,causing weird tuning issues) . Any pics?

[helle-man]

Elwood & GentlemanJim have good points. The very first place to check is the nut - sometimes they're cut for smaller diameter strings and pinching the string.

Lubrication is also extremely important, especially if you use a tremolo.

And whenever the seasons change, expect your guitar to change tuning some. I always have to adjust the truss rod this time of year.

My 2¢
Will

[NickHorne]

And you shouldn't be worried about the claw position sending tuning sharp; you just need to adjust so that the bridge now sits at the same angle relative to the body as it did before your string / pitch change. You're just setting the back-tension of the springs to match your new string tension, nothing more.
Everyone's advice about the nut, lube (Nut Sauce is my own favourite, only tiny qauntities needed) etc is very sound.

[StevenMikel]

I haven't been here since I posted my problem,its been a busy couple of weeks.
I live in central Indiana.It gets humid here in the summer time but,the humidity has been mild so far this year.My guitar sits out all of the time,it stays in my living room 90% of the time.
I had a tech reshape the nut so I could use heavier gauge strings.I don't use the tremolo much if at all and at the moment the tremolo is clear of the pickguard .I just looked at the bridge and how it sits against the body and it does look like it is very slightly angled up,its almost not noticable.
I'll check and lube the nut and make sure the trem is sitting parallel to the body and report back .

[StevenMikel]

So,I made some adjustments to the bridge and adjusted the truss rod and so,far my tuning is stable,no pulling sharp.
Thanks to everybody for their suggestions.

[StevenMikel]

I'm still having the same problem. I've made every adjustment I can make.My guitar sits in the same room all of the time and the weather here is been pretty stable. I have an Ibanez with a Floyd Rose style trem on it and have no problems with its tuning. I've been playing/studying the guitar for 30 years now,I've learned to and know how to set up a guitar and I've owned several guitars with locking trems on them and have never had a problem like I'm having with my Comanche. In the 10 years I've owned my Comanche there have only been 3 years that I didn't have this problem and,I don't know what was different about those 3 years. There is something wrong with my Comanche that I need to figure out.

[CSVeteran]

Something to consider is replacing the nut with a bone one. I have always used bone nuts on electric, acoustic and nylon stringed instrumes, as I find them to be the perfect nut material to reduce friction.

If you have the correct nut file gauges for the job, it can conceivably make all the difference in the world. The advantage is you can set the perfect back angle when cutting each string slot. I would then run some fine emery paper through each slot to ensure it is really smoothed out.

[darwinohm]

If you have very warm hands could the neck be expanding from heat, which would cause this? This also happens when starting a gig with a cool guitar. It will need retuning when heating up for a while from hand heat. -- Darwin

[StevenMikel]

Thanks for the suggestions. My Comanche does have a graphite nut. My hands don't get warm or sweaty and I don't play for long enough periods of time for the neck to get warm. Earlier today I picked up my Comanche to play and checked the tuning before I started playing,the tuning was sharp.I'm tuning down a half step fyi. I tuned down to below half step down then back up to a half step down,I put the guitar down for a few minutes then checked the tuning again,it was sharp, the tuning went sharp while the guitar was sitting untouched.

[Fumble fingers]

does your guitar have the Birdseye neck ??

[StevenMikel]

No it doesn't have a birdseye neck

[KenC]

I don't have any first-hand experience with newer G&L vibrato setups (my "newest" is from '86), but have you looked into the springs themselves? Going sharp across all the strings suggests extra tension. The strings and tremolo springs will find equilibrium, or else leave the bridge at one extreme end of its range. When you de-tuned, you reduced the amount of tension the strings were putting on the springs. Going to a heavier string set may have offset this somewhat, but I think it may still be worth checking out. If you can reduce the overall tension of the springs, you may find the solution. I remember seeing aftermarket springs with different tensions at some point in the past, but I can't remember where. Steward MacDonald may be a good starting place.

Ken

[geoff douglas]

Hi all. i cant help but think there is something touching somewhere on the trem assy or excessive friction at the two pivot knife edges. Have you disassembled the trem assy and inspected the condition of the knife edges. Have you tried adjusting the bridge height a little as an experiment which will then use a different part of the post knife edge, hopefully to a non worn area of the pivot point., Have you tried adjusting the plate angle to dip down slightly or horizontal and not up slightly as you mentioned. Is the spring plate touching the springs slightly or does it go out of tune with the plate removed. Do all strings go sharp?. Using the trem arm does the tuning stay flat after tremming flat. Does the tuning stay sharp after tremming sharp? Theres trem historisis if this is the case and i would suspect the pivots as the source of this issue.
There just some things to check anyway,
Cheers
Geoff

[geoff douglas]

Its is also the case that if the bridge height has been adjusted recently then the historisis in the trem could well be worse because the original pivot wear points are no longer aligned. If the bridge knife edge is worn to a blunt edge this male edge will no longed pivot correctly in the female post V pivot point. Visual inspection of the bridge plate knife edge and post pivot V is necessary i think. As an experiment you could try lubricating the pivots with dry graphite powder and see if that has an effect on trem historisis.
Increasing string gauge will increase the force applied to the pivot points, if there is an issue with the condition of the pivots the historisis will be worse with this increased pressure on the pivot contact points, well i think it would be anyway, im no expert but it it sounds feasible to me.
Perseverance is the name of the game, all problems have a cause, they just need to be isolated to be corrected..
Cheers
Geoff

[geoff douglas]

just another point. Variables need to be removed when trouble shooting. Can you tell me if when tuning your strings are you tuning all strings from flat to correct note or from sharp to correct note, or a combination of both. For an experiment please try tuning all string from being flat to correct note without overshoot and monitor the tuning stability then tune all strings from sharp to correct note and then check tuning stability. Does one method provide better stability?. All information helps to diagnose issues.
Cheers
Geoff

[Craig]

Here are a few posts to look at, which are in the G&L Knowledgebase, G&L Tech Tips:

Set-Ups, answering some questions
What can I do when my Legacy Trem Won't Stay in Tune?

Also, make sure that the pivot posts each have the felt washers, as illustrated in this image:


Post some photos showing your current setup: include tuners, nut. bridge, trem claw and springs.

[CSVeteran]

A quick troubleshooting method you could try is to temporary block the trem assembly. If it stabilizes the strings from going sharp, then the problem lies within the trem setup. If, however, it continues to go sharp, then it is likely your nut. I would rule out the tuners, since they would not all go sharp at the same time. Nevetheless, it would not be a bad idea to check the nuts that hold the tuners in place, to see if they are loose and contibuting to play.

[StevenMikel]

My trem is permanently blocked. I rarely ever use the trem or even put the arm in the trem. Like I said this has been an ongoing problem the entire time I've owned this guitar. I might try removing the center spring,I can't afford to go buy new springs right now. If that doesn't work I'll try removing and taking apart the trem assembly. I think I remember taking the trem off of the guitar one time and there was a little bit of play in the trem posts,I wonder if the play in the trem posts is part of the problem. Thank you all for all of your suggestions.

[Craig]

My trem is permanently blocked. I rarely ever use the trem or even put the arm in the trem. Like I said this has been an ongoing problem the entire time I've owned this guitar. I might try removing the center spring,I can't afford to go buy new springs right now. If that doesn't work I'll try removing and taking apart the trem assembly. I think I remember taking the trem off of the guitar one time and there was a little bit of play in the trem posts,I wonder if the play in the trem posts is part of the problem. Thank you all for all of your suggestions.

I'd still like to see some photos, especially of your "permanently blocked" trem.

[geoff douglas]

I guess the question has to be asked, has the trem been "permanently blocked" during the entire time this tuning issue has been evident.
My SC-3's are 23 years old now and set up basically as per the book, more by eye than measurements. Both guitars needed attention to their pivots after that length of time and both guitars surprise me with their tuning stability. Refering to the suggestion of using a graphite lubricant if the trem was floating as designed, if the lubricant actually reduced the trem historisis then there is definitely an issue with the pivots, the knife edges should rock without the need for lubrication, as designed.
I don't see the need to permanently block the trem, i dont use the trem either, what do you actually gain from blocking it?. Could you consider setting up as per the book and monitor the tuning stability then.
Cheers
Geoff

[geoff douglas]

Just another point regarding setup. In my opinion for the best possible trem reproduciblity with the least amount of historisis it is best to have the trem plate sloping a little down not up, especially if the knife edges are worn. This then has the pivot fulcrum point not at top dead center so to speak and slightly biased towards the counteracting force supplied by the springs with the aid of the lever ratio provided by the block the strings are fed through. Any comments regarding this fulcrum angle are very welcome.
Cheers
Geoff

[StevenMikel]

I removed the center spring and,that seemed to take care of the problem. The trem was blocked to try to get rid of the problem, I took my guitar to a tech and he glued a piece of wood to the body of the guitar in front of the string block. I tried to post a picture of it but I'm having trouble attaching the pic to my message.

[geoff douglas]

Hi Steven, i hope im not making things complicated but i find this sort of issue very interesting and please people set me straight if im saying things that are not correct, as i said before, im no expert but i am fairly well educated regarding engineering things so my brain just goes off and ponders issues like this, unfortunately though i dont always see things right, lol, so please set me straight when im not.

OK, assuming your going to stick with the trem being blocked i find it hard to believe that removing the center spring will change anything at all. The springs, regardless of how many, still have to be adjusted to sufficient tension to hold the trem assembly against the block. Is the block made of a soft wood material and you suspect compression of the block?. Is the block very hydroscopic, does it change dimension easily?. Always going sharp suggests block compression could be an issue.
I think many variables are introduced when blocking a trem assy, there are a lot of forces and angles at play with the design of this trem and the setup is critical, im not so sure a good setup wouldnt provide the tuning stability you desire. Maybe if the issue continues consideration should be given to removing the block and experimenting with the setup. It just a thought.

Cheers
Geoff

[StevenMikel]

Well,removing the center spring didn't work very well . Like you said the other springs eventually adjusted the change in tension. I even let the claw out a little to lessen the tension and,the tuning is still pulling sharp but,not as bad. The tuning stays stable for a longer period of time before going sharp now. The block is made of either ash or maple,I don't remember wich. I guess I'll have to remove the trem assembly and take it apart and look at everything. I took some pictures but am having a hard time attaching them to my messages. Looking at how the trem sits, it looks like it might be a little bit lower than spec.

[geoff douglas]

hi again Steven,
ok, i strongly would advise inspecting the knife edges, clean all if they look ok and do a factory set up even with the block in place. If your trem plate is low and you have adjustment room in your saddles to maintain your desired action height you can hopefully adjust all without the block touching the trem spring assy at all. You wouldnt have to remove it then, at least not for testing purposes. Please try it but with a slight downward pitch of the trem plate (length wise) towards the back of the body. Try to keep either side of the posts at the same height. If the plate is tilted ( sideways not length wise ), this will induce friction at the pivots, all knife edge pivots need to be aligned in the same plane correctly for the least possible friction at the pivot.
I would say good luck mate but there is no luck involved with this, its purely a mechanical devise that always has a reason for doing what it is doing. Again, perseverance is the name of the game.
Cheers
Geoff

[StevenMikel]

I've made some more adjustments and tweaked my set-up some more and,my tuning seems to be holding. I'm going to put a new set of strings on as the set I have on the guitar have been on there a couple of months and have been constantly stretched,de-tuned and tuned up.

[geoff douglas]

Have you made the current adjustments to allow the trem to float. As you know you need to be prepared to adjust the 2 posts heights along with the string and spring tensions as well as saddle heights to get the correct action height and trem plate angle. Forget about using a ruler to measure anything, your desired action height determines all, assuming no packing or tilting of the neck is required of course. When your happy with the action, saddle adjustment range and plate angle you want then to look for the sweet spot with the aid of your tuner, one that has an indication of how far out of tune any given note is. Use the trem bar and see how close the tuning returns to correct pitch. Check both directions of trem movement when doing this. By repeated adjustment of the spring and string tensions, to change the plate angle, you want to look for the sweet spot where the best return to tune performance is found. A small amount of one of the post heights might be required when looking for this sweet spot to confirm there is not excessive tilt of the plate as mentioned earlier. This sweet spot typically will change if string thickness is changed and the search for the sweet spot will need to be done again. For my SC-3's this spot required the plate to be angled down slightly but it might not be for another setup.
All this is dependent on the condition of your knife edges, if there buggered you might not find any sweet spot at all, you will still be looking for the best return to tune position but it might well not be perfect. After this adjustment is made always use the same gauge strings and replace them and correctly tension them one string at a time to ensure the pivot points stay tensioned and dont move from the sweet spot. It's fiddly, time consuming but very satisfying when completed.
This is method worked for me, it may well not work for all but i hope it gives you some idea of what is required to perform a satisfactory setup.
Cheers
Geoff

[Craig]

Well,removing the center spring didn't work very well . Like you said the other springs eventually adjusted the change in tension. I even let the claw out a little to lessen the tension and,the tuning is still pulling sharp but,not as bad. The tuning stays stable for a longer period of time before going sharp now. The block is made of either ash or maple,I don't remember wich. I guess I'll have to remove the trem assembly and take it apart and look at everything. I took some pictures but am having a hard time attaching them to my messages. Looking at how the trem sits, it looks like it might be a little bit lower than spec.

See Tutorial: Posting photos.

[CSVeteran]

I took my guitar to a tech and he glued a piece of wood to the body of the guitar in front of the string block. I tried to post a picture of it but I'm having trouble attaching the pic to my message.

There is really no need to glue a trem block to the body. An easier way to do it is to cut a 1/8" shim to set your bridge height (sliding it under the bridge), then cut a trem block that is wedged between the trem cavity (wood) and trem block (metal). When the top bridge shim slides out easily, you will have the correct thickness trem block, at which point the three springs are tightened and is more than sufficient to hold the block in place, without any need for glue.

A trem block shim cut out of ash, birch or oak is what I would recommend, since those woods are dense and not likely to deform under spring tension.

With the trem blocked, the guitar should not go out of tune, unless there is a problem with strings binding on the nut, because of an improperly cut nut or the tuners are unstable. The strings I like the most are DR Pure Blues. My Legacy holds tuning for a week at a time using a blocked trem. Even before I blocked it, it would stay in tune.

[Craig]

I took my guitar to a tech and he glued a piece of wood to the body of the guitar in front of the string block. I tried to post a picture of it but I'm having trouble attaching the pic to my message.

There is really no need to glue a trem block to the body. An easier way to do it is to cut a 1/8" shim to set your bridge height (sliding it under the bridge), then cut a trem block that is wedged between the trem cavity (wood) and trem block (metal). When the top bridge shim slides out easily, you will have the correct thickness trem block, at which point the three springs are tightened and is more than sufficient to hold the block in place, without any need for glue.

A trem block shim cut out of ash, birch or oak is what I would recommend, since those woods are dense and not likely to deform under spring tension.

With the trem blocked, the guitar should not go out of tune, unless there is a problem with strings binding on the nut, because of an improperly cut nut or the tuners are unstable. The strings I like the most are DR Pure Blues. My Legacy holds tuning for a week at a time using a blocked trem. Even before I blocked it, it would stay in tune.

We also have a post in this sub-forum on trem blocking, see: How do I block the tremelo on my guitar?.

StevenMikel: I recently fixed the one image in your Registered User's Gallery, because it was too large for posting. You should be able to post this photo now, just refer to the Tutorial
for details on posting photos. I would like to see more photos of the bridge, too.

[StevenMikel]

I took my guitar to a tech and he glued a piece of wood to the body of the guitar in front of the string block. I tried to post a picture of it but I'm having trouble attaching the pic to my message.

There is really no need to glue a trem block to the body. An easier way to do it is to cut a 1/8" shim to set your bridge height (sliding it under the bridge), then cut a trem block that is wedged between the trem cavity (wood) and trem block (metal). When the top bridge shim slides out easily, you will have the correct thickness trem block, at which point the three springs are tightened and is more than sufficient to hold the block in place, without any need for glue.

A trem block shim cut out of ash, birch or oak is what I would recommend, since those woods are dense and not likely to deform under spring tension.

With the trem blocked, the guitar should not go out of tune, unless there is a problem with strings binding on the nut, because of an improperly cut nut or the tuners are unstable. The strings I like the most are DR Pure Blues. My Legacy holds tuning for a week at a time using a blocked trem. Even before I blocked it, it would stay in tune.

We also have a post in this sub-forum on trem blocking, see: How do I block the tremelo on my guitar?.

StevenMikel: I recently fixed the one image in your Registered User's Gallery, because it was too large for posting. You should be able to post this photo now, just refer to the Tutorial
for details on posting photos. I would like to see more photos of the bridge, too.

Thank you Craig.
I took the trem assembly off of the guitar and took a good look at everything.I cleaned everything up,put on a new set of strings and really took my time setting-up my guitar and ,the tuning is finally holding. I do think that the strings are getting bound up in the nut(its a graphite nut) every once in a while . I'm thinking about getting a Graph Tech Black Tusq nut,does anybody know what size nut I would need ?

[StevenMikel]

Here is the blocked trem,if you can see it

[Craig]

Here is the blocked trem,if you can see it

Here's the full size photo:



Hint: you need to view the full photo and then copy the image link. You copied the thumbnail image instead.

I'd still like to see photos of the bridge (top side) and headstock including the nut.
I don't recognize what is surrounding the tremblock.

Here's what my 2008 Legacy looks like in the trem cavity area:



I also don't see the wood block you mentioned was glued to the body. Can you post photos showing that, too?