Really? Crowd funding for an ailing store?

jeffmarshall67 · Post by **jeffmarshall67** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:28 pm

I love Buffalo Brothers, have bought from them over the years and always stop in when in Southern California. But asking for help this way? Welcome to the world of reality.

When Bob and Tim ran it, they had soul. The two times I've stopped in since there were just employees asking from their desk to "yell out" if I need anything.

http://www.gofundme.com/SaveBuffaloBrosGuitars

helle-man · Post by **helle-man** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:49 pm

I'd like to see how Tim Page responds to this unfortunate turn of events for his old store.

Will

LeoFThe Champion · Post by **LeoFThe Champion** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:59 pm

Buy it back at a discounted price?

jeffmarshall67 · Post by **jeffmarshall67** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:08 pm

I agree Will. It's gone from a destination store that people sought out to this.

glvourot · Post by **glvourot** » Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:10 pm

That is something else. I guess not everyone is cut out for business. Again, wow.

suave eddie · Post by **suave eddie** » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:18 am

Truly bizarre.
Who do they think think they are? A bank or a car manufacturer? Too big to fail I guess.

jeffmarshall67 · Post by **jeffmarshall67** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:22 pm

and a friend pointed out that crowd funding like this usually comes with a promise or some kind of incentive. This just seems to be a hand stuck out for some $

blargfromouterspace · Post by **blargfromouterspace** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:35 pm

jeffmarshall67 wrote:and a friend pointed out that crowd funding like this usually comes with a promise or some kind of incentive. This just seems to be a hand stuck out for some $

Exactly. I'm all for crowd-funding, its a great way to get a record/film made - essentially the same thing as pre-sales - and has enabled artists to release some great records without a record label putting up for the cost of its production. But $300,000 for a shop!?! Is he joking?

tbp0701 · Post by **tbp0701** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:36 am

Wow, that's surprising. and to me the descriptions make it worse, sounding something akin to stating they haven't been able to properly manage the store, but it's a landmark so donate to keep it around. I don't know the ownership history and back story, however.

But I've never attempted to run a music store. I'm wondering if it would be possible to buy and reopen a Cleveland stop that recently closed, but then I think that would be crazy. I at least looked at it enough to greatly admire anyone who has been able to successfully run a music store.

Edit (I removed something I decided may be a bit cynical given that I don't know how many owners the shop has had in the last few years).

fianoman · Post by **fianoman** » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:45 am

Hmmmm..... this is giving me an idea to fund my retirement....

Now if I can only come up with a sad story for the intro.

gofundme
Maybe it's a typo.

Edit - adding a little more. I don't know their situation but not everyone is cut out to be a business owner. It is tough, hard work. And a music shop, even more so. But $300k is a LOT of money. Maybe it is time to sell or file for bankruptcy. Not a pleasant alternative but could be time for a reality check.

LarryNJ · Post by **LarryNJ** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:52 am

Looks like they've only got another $299,000.00+ to go!

Never been there, talked to the former peeps a few times about ordering a G&L, but wound up going elsewhere.

Running a small ( or large for that matter) business is tough & not for the timid.
With GC, Sam Ash, and online retailers, you need to have your stuff together and know what to do in order to survive as an independent MI dealer.

I wish them well, but think it is highly unlikely that they can raise that kind of capital from individual small investors.
If a Bank or SBA assistance is out of the question, then I suppose that they bit off more than they knew how to chew.

I would wish any sincere small business owner, (especially a source for G&L) well.

KenC · Post by **KenC** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:26 pm

LarryNJ wrote:I wish them well, but think it is highly unlikely that they can raise that kind of capital from individual small investors.

The most baffling thing to me is that they don't seem to be looking for investors at all...or at least not the kind of investors who expect a return on their investment. It looks like the only return they're offering is the opportunity to keep shopping there. I'm wondering what will happen if they only reach $299,999. Will the "crowd" get their money back, or does it go to fund the owners' next endeavor?

I didn't look at their webpage today. Last Wednesday they said they had run into unexpected setbacks and weren't able to restock their merchandise. As of Saturday, the story had changed to how they had tried for the past year (i.e., ever since they bought it) to get the store back on track financially. I highly doubt that's true, but if it is...why did they buy it if they couldn't afford to restock? I'm wondering what the next justification for the "crowd sourcing" attempt will be.

I have to wonder if this is a small scale version of what Bain Capital seems to be doing with Guitar Center.

Ken

jeffmarshall67 · Post by **jeffmarshall67** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:47 pm

from their FB page today, basically backing up what we are all wondering. Putting the palm out for sure. Seems they don't want to "take the time" to get funding through a "bank or government". They sure feel entitled.

"In regard to our Go fund me link. We have considered traditional forms of Financing however the amount of time it takes to get funding through the bank or government is an issue so we are trying to think more outside the box. So if you know anyone who could help us on the investment side of things so we can get the right amount of inventory back in the store then let us know. Buffalo Bro's guitars can still be an awesome place, we just need everyone to help. We believe the resources and right people exist.. we just need to ask and we are not afraid to ask as you can see. Help us make Buffalo Bro's Guitars what it needs to be. The World needs it and so do you. Just Remember the power of multiplication is powerful."

GDub · Post by **GDub** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:29 pm

I have no opinion about the current crowd sourcing attempt to keep the Buffalo Brothers store open, but I will note that had this news surfaced on the good ol' G&LDP back in its heyday this would have been a HOTBED topic. Buffalo Brother Tim was a very active member here (he still posts occasionally) and a LOT of G&LDPers bought guitars/gear from his and his bro's store over the years. They had a super good reputation in these parts. I bought at least three guitars from BBros including my only custom ordered G&L. Great, personable service was to be had, and their relationship with G&L was the best. So sorry that the new owners are having a hard go of it (and, FTR, I think these are the people who bought the store from Tim and Bob, so it has only exchanged hands once). I guess if the sh*t hits the fan you try what you can.

--GDub

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:49 pm

i think that there are a few of us who would like to reply and/or weigh in, but unfortunate dealings with the new owner make that impossible. suffice to say that Buffalo Brothers now exists in name only, and what was once a store with a well earned rep and in Tim, one of the best friends G&L ever had, is now simply the reflection of one man's misguided attempt to run a business. some of you know the back story, most of you don't. but that's not really important. what is important is the legacy Bob and Tim and the crew left, the many players and collectors alike who they made very happy, and the very real G&L's like the ASAT 50, Z2, Trinity, and of course the Blues Boy, are there for us to play and enjoy.

fianoman · Post by **fianoman** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:27 am

How disappointing.

On another note, that is one gem of a guitar Jonc. Great photo - just when you begin to think you have seen them all, another G&L comes along that is spectacular. Looks like you could jump into that finish.

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:58 pm

I'd like to know this backstory.

If no one in the business of loaning money is willing to loan them money now should anyone who isn't in the business consider offering them money?

You cannot save a sinking ship that isn't seaworthy.

Let this one sink and go fund yourself or someone you love a G&L instead.

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:19 pm

Salmon: Suffice to say that anyone who donates to this should have their head examined. but there are suckers born every minute and a slew of con men ready to fleece them.

fianoman: that's Blues Blue #1 you're looking at. The only one with a quilt top, and the most 3D quilt you've ever seen, and which came from Leo's office. There's a thread around here about it and after changing hands a number of times, it's now back with it's creator. Btw, Jaystrings did the pics and they are stellar. I'll see if I can rustle some others up and post them.

GDub · Post by **GDub** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:31 pm

Jon, seems like you had some issues with BBros after Tim and Bob sold the store. That sucks! I had a rather frustrating issue with Calton Cases after the original owner sold. Took FOREVER to get my case, but eventually I did get it. Apparently others (including dealers) weren't so lucky. At some point, the original owner intervened and because of contractual agreements of the sale (patent issues I think) he got the business back and has worked hard to restore the brand's well deserved reputation. That story is all over the acoustic instrument forums because Calton cases are the tried and true tanks of instrument cases. Anyway, like Will said, it would be interesting to hear Tim's take on the whole affair, but my guess is that that ain't going to happen.

Hope you're doing well. Maggie and I moved to Montréal last November so we are no longer in the Bay Area. The band is still happening though, and we'll be back in CA at the beginning of the summer for some gigs and recording, and again at the end of the summer for more gigs.

--GDub

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:47 pm

Gdub, I'm jealous. Montreal was a "quick" drive from Boston and the exchange rate during the 90's was so beneficial that you could eat like a king and then smile when the credit card bill came. plus the charcuterie's along what i guess is now known to tourists as the "charcuterie trail." there were some great record stores too, including one i can't remember the name of but had a ton of cassettes still in the original plastic, and that one vintage guitar shop on the main strip. as for the new owner of BB's all i can say is look up conversion. take care, hope to catch you guys when you're in the area. definitely let me know.

fianoman · Post by **fianoman** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:43 am

Jonc, some very interesting history with that BB #1! This newb learned quite a bit reading through the old posts. Thanks for the info.

willross · Post by **willross** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:33 pm

Crowd sourcing can work, but it has to be about something, not just survival.

All the best...

Will

bloodied_fingers · Post by **bloodied_fingers** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:35 pm

It seems to me these guys started with a known brand, location and probably some trained staff that had a great reputation. You really shouldn't screw that up.

Now in a few years they are asking for enough cash to cover 2-3 turns of inventory because "you need their store" ? And they don't even give a reason for being so cash strapped. It isn't even like the Bain/GC issue because Bain overspent getting into GC. Did the previous ownership fleece the buyers here?

I think they should at least give reasons.

just wierd

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:31 pm

X marks the spot

bloodied_fingers · Post by **bloodied_fingers** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:52 pm

Jonc I have no information outside of the last 30 minutes or so. I don't know anybody involved except seeing Tim post here now and then, and he seems very cool.

Someone mentioned the bain/GC thing and I was saying that Bain overspent for GC, but who knows if BB's current ownership overspent? Not me.

I don't have a clue about what the current owners spent on buffalo brothers. But overpaying upfront can cause problems with finances.

But I don't even know how long they've owned BB. It seems a pretty recent change?

So not really even speculation on my part. Just wondering...

I don't even know how big BB is, how many turns would 300k buy?

So given that I know very little please be assured I'm not going to intentionally slight or insult anyone involved.

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:15 am

X marks the spot

GDub · Post by **GDub** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:11 pm

For those unfamiliar with Buffalo Brothers, do a little research on the Bluesboy, ASAT ’50, ASAT Z-2, and ASAT Trinity. Also note that Tim Page was a close friend of the late George Fullerton. The connection between Buffalo Brothers and G&L isn't trivial. Tim's older brother Bob retired a couple of years ago and that's when they sold the store. The store's reputation until they sold was nothing less than stellar. And the fact that Tim was a VERY active, LONG time member of this forum put a public face on their store for people who didn't live in the vicinity. Though I'm sure there was an occasional gripe, I can't remember ANY bad PR about the BBros on the good ol' G&LDP since I started frequenting this place in 1999.

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:30 pm

GDub wrote:For those unfamiliar with Buffalo Brothers, do a little research on the Bluesboy, ASAT ’50, ASAT Z-2, and ASAT Trinity. Also note that Tim Page was a close friend of the late George Fullerton. The connection between Buffalo Brothers and G&L isn't trivial. Tim's older brother Bob retired a couple of years ago and that's when they sold the store. The store's reputation until they sold was nothing less than stellar. And the fact that Tim was a VERY active, LONG time member of this forum put a public face on their store for people who didn't live in the vicinity. Though I'm sure there was an occasional gripe, I can't remember ANY bad PR about the BBros on the good ol' G&LDP since I started frequenting this place...

+1
and real glad Tim still hangs out here when he can.

thanks for ' A brief history of Tim ' Gdub

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:46 pm

thanks gdub. though to set the record straight bob retired last april and the store officially transitioned to the new owner on april 1, 2013.

jeffmarshall67 · Post by **jeffmarshall67** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:01 pm

In the early days of this forum, the Page brothers brought a ton of g&l knowledge and even their own shop models to fruition. I still lust after a trinity. I can't imagine they would do anything but set up the new owners with everything they could to succeed. I'm just waiting to bid on the big chicken on top of the building

Fumble fingers · Post by **Fumble fingers** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:18 pm

Bummer on the store , mis management for sure ..... I know I take Tim's post seriously , I bought my Super Reverb based off of a post he made about his Broadcaster and Super reverb in college being one of his all-time favorite combos .... I ended up getting a Broadcaster too !! (big thanks to JonC , he's great too

) but I'm saving the Broadcaster and big thank you to Jon for a NGD post soon

GDub · Post by **GDub** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:56 pm

jonc wrote:thanks gdub. though to set the record straight bob retired last april and the store officially transitioned to the new owner on april 1, 2013. that it took just a year to tank the place is pretty amazing.

You're correct Jon, I was being lazy and couldn't actually remember when it was so I didn't look up the actual sale/retirement date--plus I was prepping for a 3000 mile international move! Good excuse, huh?

Actually my move plan should have been a clue because I remember Tim posting about Bob's relocation to the Azores about the same time we were plotting our escape. Onward...

--GDub

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Fri May 02, 2014 10:26 am

looks like the crowdfunding page has been pulled and from what i've been hearing through the grapevine they raised less than $900 and will be going under. Sad times considering what BB's was.

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Fri May 02, 2014 9:07 pm

I am just having a little fun basing this on very little known about this situation:

Flourishing business deeply vested in G&L brand among others stocked, maybe even The Exemplary G&L Dealer.

Owners want out for whatever reason.

The way I see this situation there were five ways for this to go:

a.) A big corporation buys the store for its location because of its proven success and undergoes a form of genericinism ending up a Guitar Center/Sam Ash thing.
b.) A smaller body, either single or multiple-minded entity, buys the store and immediately downsizes to become a small shop that can ride on the knowledge of BB's existence whereby general word of mouth sustains awareness that there is still a music store in business to investigate.
c.) If there were longtime employees of BB in strategically advantageous positions to step up and expand their roles becoming owners they would buy the business with the intention of maintaining the momentum the original owners were responsible for producing thus becoming longtime employee owned BB.
d.) An outside entity believes they can step in and maintain the momentum, maybe grow the business as "BB under new ownership."
e.) Original owners just dissolve the business.

Most likely scenario to succeed = e
Least likely scenario to succeed = d

jeffmarshall67 · Post by **jeffmarshall67** » Thu May 08, 2014 1:37 pm

As of their FB page today, they are closing and selling off the remaining product. Sad end to an institution. Guess that once again shows there is more to a business than just location and product

jeffmarshall67 · Post by **jeffmarshall67** » Fri May 23, 2014 8:28 pm

and they are done, sad to see what Tim and Bob built fall apart......

from their FB today:

Buffalo Bros Guitars
47 mins ·
Hello Friends its been a great run but unfortunatley due to unforseen circumstances Buffalo Brothers Guitars has closed its doors.
However the guitar repair and instrument shop that James Hood has had in the back of the building is still here. So if you still need guitar repair come to the back of the building and walk on in.

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Sat May 24, 2014 7:06 pm

jeffmarshall67 wrote:and they are done, sad to see what Tim and Bob built fall apart......

from their FB today:

Buffalo Bros Guitars
47 mins ·
Hello Friends its been a great run but unfortunatley due to unforseen circumstances Buffalo Brothers Guitars has closed its doors.
However the guitar repair and instrument shop that James Hood has had in the back of the building is still here. So if you still need guitar repair come to the back of the building and walk on in.

thanks for posting.

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Sat May 24, 2014 11:43 pm

They really should not be saying, "it's been a great run."

It had a great run in the hands of the original owners.

Did the store run in any direction other than downhill once it was in the final owner's hands?

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Mon May 26, 2014 11:43 am

Salmon wrote:They really should not be saying, "it's been a great run."

It had a great run in the hands of the original owners.

Did the store run in any direction other than downhill once it was in the final owner's hands?

Buffalo Brothers is dead. Long live Buffalo Brothers!

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Mon May 26, 2014 12:49 pm

That is catastrophic. I hope you can recover something. So sorry to see you taking a hit from an apparent scheme that would inevitably hurt innocent people.

yowhatsshakin · Post by **yowhatsshakin** » Mon May 26, 2014 2:19 pm

jonc wrote:I had a bulk of my G&L collection on consignment there and lost my shirt.

Man Jon, that major league sucks!!

- Jos

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Mon May 26, 2014 4:45 pm

Salmon wrote:That is catastrophic. I hope you can recover something. So sorry to see you taking a hit from an apparent scheme that would inevitably hurt innocent people.

Buffalo Brothers is dead. Long live Buffalo Brothers.

Fumble fingers · Post by **Fumble fingers** » Tue May 27, 2014 6:44 am

sorry to hear that Jon , especially knowing how "stand up of a guy " you are ... it down right pisses me off someone treated you that way

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Tue May 27, 2014 1:49 pm

Fumble fingers wrote:sorry to hear that Jon , especially knowing how "stand up of a guy " you are ... it down right pisses me off someone treated you that way

Thank you Mr. Bcaster!!!!

For anyone who saw my post before I pulled it thank you. For those that are wondering what I'm yapping about, it will eventually come out. Bottom line is, there are thieves, scoundrels and scammers and then there are the good guys. No one is perfect all the time, but some folks have a real knack for being bastards and sleezeballs no matter what.

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Wed May 28, 2014 12:57 am

jonc wrote:Bottom line is, there are thieves, scoundrels and scammers and then there are the good guys. No one is perfect all the time, but some folks have a real knack for being bastards and sleezeballs no matter what.