Tokai?

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:06 pm

Just wondering if anyone has had a chance to play any Tokai guitars? I am tempted to pick up one of the lower priced models if they are good enough. I prefer unused over something chipped and rusted from sweat. If I saw something in exceptional condition at a decent price (under $1000) I'd consider it but there is a lot of risk. Most accessible sources from the USA, where I live, are in Japan. The Tokai brand is widely sold in the UK but buying from there is a different pricing animal. There are dealers in Japan offering free shipping to the USA. So if the new Tokai made in China is OK it is only $600 or less rather than close to twice that or more for one of the used MIJ's from the best period when they were attempting to make a guitar very close to a Gibson.

I see a lot of used for the same price from a couple dealers on ebay. One is in California, USA. I wonder how they can price so many used guitars at $395 and $495. How could they all be in equal condition? I am thinking about the new "Paradise" model related to G&R Slash. I really don't like anything about that affiliation except the guitar looks nice.

Basically, I want a Les Paul style guitar. I'd like a Gibson but I don't want to spend that much money. I was thinking of getting my feet wet with something relatively inexpensive.

There is also a V100 model in a brand named Vintage I recently discovered. I am aware of the Burny, Orville, ESP Edwards and Yamaha Les Pauls.

Fumble fingers · Post by **Fumble fingers** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:22 pm

the ones I've seen are nice ... Lp , strat and tele all looked good , specially for the price .... At the time I was shopping for G&L's so didn't pay attention to model names

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:18 pm

Can't help with the Tokai experience, but...

I've had a couple "Michael Kelly" instruments, I see the LP styles from 300 and up.I haven't played any but I've been tempted to pull the trigger on one after playing the dobro and ac. bass.
They moved from korea where the first ones where made(my acoustic bass is korean, ten years old and still fantastic playing).
Ebay link

blargfromouterspace · Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:57 pm

I played a few recently from the Japanese 'Vintage Series' and Chinese 'Traditional Series'. Unfortunately no top-of-the-line Premium Series were about but they cost as much as a brand new Les Paul Standard making them waaaaay out of my price range anyway. Here's a link to the Tokai Australia website, the prices listed are about what you pay in the shops here. My pick of the lot was, surprisingly, the Chinese SG Jr. It has a nato body (I've never heard of that wood either), was incredibly lightweight and resonant and had bags of character*. The hardware is of course better on the Japanese ones, as is the overall standard of construction. The new Japanese ones are very well made, I'd put them in the same category as G&L, Fender USA or Gibson - very playable necks, good work on the frets, nice finishes, solid. There's definitely a Tokai in my future.

*should add here that the 'character' might not appeal to everyone. The high quality of the Vintage Series would though.

helle-man · Post by **helle-man** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:29 am

I owned a Tokai Tele in the late 80's. Good guitar. Wish I still had it.

Will

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:50 pm

Thanks for all of the comments.

I had no idea Tokai was so alive and well. Until I learned of the linked Australian website posted by Jamie I had only seen small dealers in the UK. Here is a main Tokai website for the UK: Tokai UK and an Australian dealer B Music.

It is interesting how there are so many Strat style builders around. In contrast, Gibson seems to have exerted monopolizing control over the Les Paul style for the most part.

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:21 am

Any thoughts or experiences with Edwards?

I don't know how a Chinese Tokai compares to a Japanese Edwards.

Sprinter 92 · Post by **Sprinter 92** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:36 am

I worked at a store in the mid 80's that was a Tokai dealer. They were nice guitars! Their pianos were nice too! I haven't seen any of their current products.

bloodied_fingers · Post by **bloodied_fingers** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:55 am

Did I miss a memo here? You want an inexpensive Les Paul and nobody has mentioned Epiphone?

The best bang for buck LP is the Epiphone LP Tribute Plus. http://www.epiphone.com/Products/Les-Pa ... utfit.aspx

I don't think there is anything even close from another manufacturer. Really, really good guitars.

If you want something as good/better than a Gibson LP and around $1k look for a Epiphone LP Elitist.

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:03 pm

I hesitate to say this because I may discourage people from offering information or advice. However, it appears to me that the majority of Gibson Les Paul owners open to a Les Paul copy over at the My Les Paul forum are not that fond of Gibson Epiphone. From what I have gathered Epiphone is not that highly regarded compared with Tokai, Edwards, Burny, Greco and Orville. It also appears to be fairly unanimous that just about everything Japanese is superior to an alternative build location outside the USA. Hence early Epiphones made in Japan are superior to Gibson Epiphones. I am interested in something that high-end Gibson Les Paul owners are impressed with not just a good bang for your buck budget alternative.

Also, if I am going to invest $1200 +/- in a Les Paul copy I prefer it to be pleasing to my eyes on as many levels as can be. Before Gibson began suing people there were a lot of brands using the Gibson Les Paul headstock shape. The headstock is a critical factor to me with many manufacturers. This alone eliminates new Epiphones and Heritage from my list. I prefer to buy new rather than used. So even if a brand was manufactured in Japan at one time, a guitar from that era is ineligible being used or too expensive because it is rare and in demand or collectible.

I just read that ESP Edwards are partially built in China while ESP Navigators are Japanese built.....probably too expensive. I think several brands offer a level built in Japan and at least one built elsewhere.....China or Korea. The wood and paint is worked up in China then everything is completed in Japan with the Edwards, I am learning. Still, if people report that quality is good location will not stop me from buying a guitar.

catawompus · Post by **catawompus** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:05 pm

PRS is also offering some nice guitars in the LP style in their SE series. might be worth a try...

bloodied_fingers · Post by **bloodied_fingers** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:23 pm

Salmon wrote:However, it appears to me that the majority of Gibson Les Paul owners open to a Les Paul copy over at the My Les Paul forum are not that fond of Gibson Epiphone.

...snip...

I am interested in something that high-end Gibson Les Paul owners are impressed with not just a good bang for your buck budget alternative.

Well I'm of no help to you then, because I have too much sense to ask a bunch of elitist cork sniffers what they would recommend. (That's a joke, kind of

)

I would never rely on the advice that group gives, but it is your dime(s). Did you, by chance, ask in the group of Epiphone owners?

Also, if I am going to invest $1200 +/- in a Les Paul copy I prefer it to be pleasing to my eyes on as many levels as can be. Before Gibson began suing people there were a lot of brands using the Gibson Les Paul headstock shape. The headstock is a critical factor to me with many manufacturers. This alone eliminates new Epiphones and Heritage from my list.

'nuff said right there. If you're shopping for the headstock only one with the right shape will do.

Have you considered a Gibson LP studio? I'm pretty sure you can get those new under $1k.

I hesitate to say this because I may discourage people from offering information or advice.

haha, it is an internet forum. I'm not offended..

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:56 pm

I have only been reading wherever like the My Les Paul forum after I Google different words. Unless you have a specific question rather than a general question that has been covered many times over you are potentially inviting trouble. I've read the common wise cracking that can result. I am walking on a well worn path and still have not read all that other people have stirred up in their process.

Hopefully I can recognize and dismiss the tude that may be presented on all sides and focus on the meat.

I do not like the Gibson Studio model. They are more stripped down than what I want. I am looking for something more like the Standard, Traditional or Classic Gibson models.

It could be erroneous information but odds seem to point to a better chance at getting a decent copy within my budget than a decent product from Gibson if I increased my budget a few hundred dollars to have the real deal.

And as far as aesthetics go, headstocks, when there are so many alternatives I am going to go with something I prefer over something I strongly dislike. It would take a situation with few choices for me to invest as much in something I had to look at which had the potential to ruin the experience of using it. I hope to avoid or at least reduce any salt in the not-an-actual-Gibson wound.

Believe it or not, I am still open if anyone would like to make a case for a product to consider within this context.

astutzmann · Post by **astutzmann** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:45 am

have a look at my avatar. I have 2 Heritage models, a 150 (LP Style) and a 535 (335 style). Heritage being made out of the old gibson factory in Kalamazoo, but the original luthiers....

A lot cheaper than a gibson, quality to me is like G&L to fender, Heritage to Gibson.

I love both of them.

A good used one is a reasonable price, new ones cost more. I bought my 150 new, my 535 used.

My 150 had SD59's in it, I swapped them out for Wolftone Marshallheads and it now screams and growls! Heavy guitar......

Being a lefty, its hard to try guitars, so I had confidence that these would be great, and they are. I'd be scared to buy a Gibson or Epiphone, without trying it first.

My $.02 worth.

astutzmann · Post by **astutzmann** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:48 am

I also bought a righty 535 (long story), and it was terrific as well, mine is a 2007 and the righty was a 2008.

A little more than $1200, but not much!!

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:55 pm

Did you play the righty upside down or can you play right-handed as well?

If you played it upside down did you have to replace the bridge with a lefty?

astutzmann · Post by **astutzmann** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:19 am

no, I bought the righty for my brother. He had a massive stroke a couple of years ago and I bought the guitar on a whim to give to him, once he got better from his stroke. I figured it would help him with his recovery.

I received the guitar and had my luthier do a complete setup, fret dress, etc on it. Its a beauty, Here's the two side by side,

Unfortunately, my brother has not recovered, he lost most of his right frontal lobe in the stroke, is paralyzed on the left side and needs constant care and help.

Enough of that......I couldn't bring myself to resell the guitar, so I did the next best thing (I think). I have lent/given it to my guitar teacher, who is in love with it and has been using it in all his recording work that he's doing. It has SD Seth Lovers in it and he loves it. He replaced the tuners with 18:1s and he says it stays in perfect tune.

Since I'm a hack, its fantastic to hear a master play a really great guitar. WOW, he can make it sing. It's currently his favourite!!!

Alf

astutzmann · Post by **astutzmann** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:28 am

also, if you are interesting, Heritage changed from Schaller hardware and pups to Tone Pro hardware and SD pups, around this time.

My 535 has schaller components and pups and sounds great, no issue.

I understand that Heritage changed, not because of quality, but because the couldn't get the quantities they needed.

The righty 535 has SD Seth Lovers and Tone Pro hardware and sound great too, no issue.

My 150 had SD 59s which are really nice and sound great in various guitars, but I found them weak in the LP, so put the wolf tones in. The wolf tones are HOT and growl and especially the neck, I have to turn it down, ha.

I think it the 150 had SD Seth lovers in there, I may have left it alone, I'm just not for the older vintage sound.

I think the type of PUP in these babies, are all good, just depends on what you want and how you like the guitar to sound to u.

Again, my $0.02 worth. Remember I know nothing about all this stuff, so just doing what feels and sounds good to me.

astutzmann · Post by **astutzmann** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:37 am

Ha, I just looked up my guitar teacher and here he is, holding the 535:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... dID=989438

Not sure which tracks have the 535 on them, but if its an electric, he'll use the 535 for the newer stuff and his stratocaster or tele in the older stuff.

He loves G&L and loves my G&Ls, wishes he could play them and he wants one, just he can't afford it. I wanted him to order an LE-2 so we would both have one, but he doesn't have the coin at this time, starving artist, family to raise, etc.

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:03 am

With the initial idea of getting my feet wet with something inexpensive I now have a special run of these on its way direct from Japan. The picture (linked to Tokai Australia) is to the LS260 but the specs match the LC195S except it is a LS195 not LC. The caps are the main difference listed. The specific model is not listed on the TA website. It is a non-catalog order guitar.

I won't know what the final price will be until it has been delivered but it definitely won't be $3300-$4000. Not sure if I will have Customs fees ransomed or billed separately. Sometimes guitars shipped from Japan make it to people in the USA without any additional fees. Given the quality and some prices it is shocking to me that so many MIJ guitars are sold with gigbags. I would have added a case separately but an official Tokai case is included.

It is the color on the right. Tokai Australia interprets the "VF" as Vintage Flame but everywhere else calls it Violin Finish which is something close to Honeyburst with a reddish cast in the edge color. It is more commonly referred to as Violin Burst. They vary quite a bit between guitars, it is also nitro, the finish changes over time and the color even freshly painted on the same new guitar has appeared similar to Honeyburst as well as Cherryburst.

blargfromouterspace · Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:53 am

Straight in to the deep end there, Salmon! I hope it lives up to your expectations. Last week I was back in the store that I played the Chinese Tokai's and I stand by what I said about them, they're good guitars.

Case24 · Post by **Case24** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:17 am

Look forward to you tone report Salmon. I picked up a used 2012 Gibson Les Paul Traditional in Ice Tea burst last Saturday for a very good price here in Canada. Great guitar and loving it very much. Pristine condition too. I don't think it got out of the case much. Congratulations on pulling the trigger on the purchase.

Greg.

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:08 am

They are very nice looking and I do like the Vintage Burst. Let us know when it arrives! -- Darwin

Boogie Bill · Post by **Boogie Bill** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:25 pm

Salmon, I too am waiting on a tone report. I know that back in the late '70s, the Tokai LPs had GREAT reputations, so I'm interested in how your guitar is.

And Alf, I am not a big fan of Heritage, after seeing so many with various finish issues and other flaws over the years. I want to like them, but in the end, I went all in with my Gibsons. I think over the past few years though, they have gotten better.

That said, that righty Heritage 535 is GORGEOUS! If you ever fire your guitar teacher, give me a buzz!!!

Bill

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:10 pm

I actually received my guitar on Monday April 14th. I have been too busy to post a NGD. I threw this together before my camera batteries gave out. Does anyone know whether taking higher resolution pictures eats more power within a shorter amount of time?

I have a nitro friendly guitar stand on its way so these are in the case only.

Briefly, I purchased this directly from a dealer in Japan. The transaction went as smooth as could be. I am used to having guitars take a week or two when shipped to me domestically. For international shipping I was surprised when it was delivered to me in three days. Cleared Customs without fees as far as I know. The shipping company handed it off to USPS. I have read that sometimes a bill comes in the mail after the package has been delivered but I would expect some sort of indication that fees are due on the package. Sometimes these do make it through without fees. I think this one did.

As for the guitar, it is just amazingly wonderful. Feels great to play, looks great and it is well-built. I have only popped off the pot cavity cover and the cavity is shielded. The frets are smaller than on the G&L's which makes some things easier like sliding notes and chords. It is much easier to do this smoothly. I love having a guitar with humbuckers. It is a cliche but the sustain from this Les Paul-style guitar was outstanding from the moment I was tuning it. Notes sing out. I also love having a guitar with a useful bridge position. My S-500 is useful but single coils are a different breed. I think most of what I hear and am attracted to in a bridge pickup has been from a humbucker. There are exceptions in certain contexts though. I simply like the sound of a Les Paul and I have not heard anything from this guitar I have not liked. It can be jazzy, mellow rock, bluesy, country, heavy rock. I am very happy with the guitar.

When I get the stand I might add a few pictures maybe taken outdoors.

BTW, the name plate and some of the trim still has the protective plastic covering it so that makes things look a little unsightly. There is still plastic on the pickup covers and I am surprised how good it sounds. I don't hear any hindrance from it. Once I remove it I might be able to tell a difference.

In the very beginning Tokai called these Les Pauls and used the same font as Gibson for the "Les Paul." Then Gibson started pressuring Japanese manufacturers to get away from so many duplicated traits. Then they called it a Tokai Reborn and later it became a Tokai Love Rock. Tokai kept a nice "open book" shaped headstock.

"Tokai Love Rock Model Produced by Tokai Gakki Co. Ltd."

Fumble fingers · Post by **Fumble fingers** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:20 pm

that's a beauty !! .... where are you located ??..... was curious on the Customs fee ..... my local G&L dealer is a Tokai dealer

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:33 pm

Salmon, that is gorgeous! I sure looks well finished. Even the case looks very Gibson. Great purchase! -- Darwin

Case24 · Post by **Case24** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:07 pm

That is a beauty Salmon! Good call on that one. I can't tell it from my Gibson! Looking forward to a full tone report.

yowhatsshakin · Post by **yowhatsshakin** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:18 pm

Beatiful guitar Salmon. Just drop dead gorgeous!!! Great score.

- Jos

Boogie Bill · Post by **Boogie Bill** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:35 pm

Nice!

Bill

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Fri May 02, 2014 9:40 pm

Fumble fingers wrote:that's a beauty !! .... where are you located ??..... was curious on the Customs fee ..... my local G&L dealer is a Tokai dealer

There are Tokai dealers here in the USA where I am located but they cannot sell these Les Pauls because Gibson has locked in legal rights to a range of characteristics in the design. My brand new guitar is not covered by Tokai's warranty because I live in the USA. It may be valid if I were to move to Japan while it is still active. I may have voided it for life by buying it outside of the authorized territory. I have no plans to move outside of the USA so I did not ask.

A tone report has been alluded to and I may put together a few sound snippets with comments.

fianoman · Post by **fianoman** » Mon May 05, 2014 5:23 am

What a great guitar Salmon! It just looks so darn vintagey, if that's even a word. It just screams to be played.

CSVeteran · Post by **CSVeteran** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:20 am

I played a number of Japanese guitars from the 1970s. The Tokais were decent, but the ones that I liked most were Aria Pro II stratocasters and LPs (the ones made in the 1970s, not the newer ones).

If I was looking for a great bang for the buck in an Asian guitar, I would look at Raven West Guitars. They rival many name brand guitars. I purchased a Sky Ranger (tele semihollow style) with a carved quilted maple top over mahogany back and sides, and an ebony fretboard over maple. Exceptional playing and sounding guitar for under $450. It has a vintage fat C profile neck with a taper and will stay in tune for weeks at a time. The abalone inlay work on the neck is some of the best I have seen - spectacular.

Another decent guitar is the Agile from Rondo Music. I purchased one of the first LP copies they made, before they changed the headstock and lower horn,

Other than that, I would look for a Raven West Guitar or vintage Aria Pro II over a newer Tokai, Jay Turser, Michael Kelly or Epiphone.

Below is a link to my Raven Sky Ranger

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd29 ... 103238.jpg

Raven neck inlay

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd29 ... 852f05.jpg

Back of body

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd29 ... 8ebaa4.jpg

jeffmarshall67 · Post by **jeffmarshall67** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:24 pm

my trusty Love Rock double cutaway, was told it was from a run of 100 but it is super light and has a nice Lollar pickup in it. Blows away any other Jr. I've ever played

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q280 ... c626f1.jpg

Salmon · Post by **Salmon** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:33 pm

I had not heard of Raven West Guitars before. That is a beautiful inlay on yours. At the prices of a RWG something has to be compromised. It is difficult enough to produce a quality guitar in simpler fashion. Is the quilt top a photo-image? Paper thin veneer? The top on my Tokai is solid wood.

There are different levels of Tokai's. I'd be surprised if anyone handling a premium or even a mid-level Tokai would describe them as unimpressive in materials, manufacturing and playability using any choice of words. It becomes a matter of subtle differences in something subjective like neck profile or very elite features like fret edge binding. The mid-level bodies are two-piece instead of one, the top level have solid brass bridge nuts and so on.

CSVeteran · Post by **CSVeteran** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:36 am

Salmon - If Raven compromised something, then I am at loss at what it could be. Hands down, it is one of the best made guitars I have ever owned. The neck pocket is the tightest I have seen and strings align perfectly over the P90 polar pieces. The quilted maple top appears to be solid from looking at inside the cavity with a mirror at sections that were carved. Overall, the guitar is flawless and lhas an incredible tapered neck. The tuners are Grovers and the one piece hardtail bridge looks like a Mighty Mite. The only thing I have done is dress the frets, since I like my action in the .050 range. I have also added a bone nut. Raven also sells LPs that have solid carved maple tops for under $450.

All in all, the quality of the Raven is equivalent to a PRS. In fact, the inlay work is much more intricate than a PRS and the ebony fretboard surpasses most guitars on the market. The only other guitar company that I have come across with this attention to detail, at the lower price point, is G&L, with their Legacy Series. I have been fortunate to play many vintage guitars over the years and, if I was starting out again, I would be looking at G&L and Raven Guitar West.

Guitars by Leo (aka "GbL")

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