Advice on re-winding my angled-offset MFD humbucker?

[neutralomen]

Hello, all. I have been working on my frankenstein ASAT for years now.



I wanted this guitar to be a viable option for high gain stages, and those MFD singles get loud. Some years ago, I got my hands on an old
Cavalier pickup, and I think I made this particular guitar one of a kind!

Here's the thing. The humbucker, while it certainly works, sounds a little...dead? flat? there is no shimmer or life to it. I was told that it may
be because the pickup is so old, that a re-wiring and re-winding may bring it back to life.

Does anyone know if that will make a difference? Is it worth the time/money? While I'm at it, is there anything else I can do to refurbish the pickup?

I'm not married to the sound. I just wanted a noise-cancelling option that matched the neck pickup and fit in the slot, and this is the only option on the PLANET.
If these modifications "wind up"(no pun intended) making the sonic character totally different, not only am I ok with that, but I'm kind of excited.

Any advice/recommendations?

[Craig]

Hello, all. I have been working on my frankenstein ASAT for years now.



I wanted this guitar to be a viable option for high gain stages, and those MFD singles get loud. Some years ago, I got my hands on an old
Cavalier pickup, and I think I made this particular guitar one of a kind!

Here's the thing. The humbucker, while it certainly works, sounds a little...dead? flat? there is no shimmer or life to it. I was told that it may
be because the pickup is so old, that a re-wiring and re-winding may bring it back to life.

Does anyone know if that will make a difference? Is it worth the time/money? While I'm at it, is there anything else I can do to refurbish the pickup?

I'm not married to the sound. I just wanted a noise-cancelling option that matched the neck pickup and fit in the slot, and this is the only option on the PLANET.
If these modifications "wind up"(no pun intended) making the sonic character totally different, not only am I ok with that, but I'm kind of excited.

Any advice/recommendations?

Have you checked the impedance of the humbucker? It should be 4.3K - 4.4K. See: Measuring Pickup DC-R and
List of pickups used in G&L guitars.

Hope this helps.

[sam]

Hey neutralomen,

Just what I can see, that is one beautiful ASAT! Please post pic of full guitar and give a little history on how you put it together.

Looking forward to seeing more pics.

[KenC]

In my experience the Cavalier bridge pickup should definitely not sound flat or dead. I wouldn't describe mine as shimmery, but there is no need to run a boost or overdrive pedal between my Cavalier and a tube amp.

I would think first about the wiring. I'm not sure how yours is wired up, but the only circuits Leo put these in had treble and bass pots.

Ken

[neutralomen]

Hey neutralomen,

Just what I can see, that is one beautiful ASAT! Please post pic of full guitar and give a little history on how you put it together.

Looking forward to seeing more pics.

I'm actually getting a replacement neck(this one is from the era when their neck options were confusing and I wound up with a baseball bat. Apparently by "thin" they thought I meant width at nut.), so i'l be doing a big writeup on that when it's done

[neutralomen]

In my experience the Cavalier bridge pickup should definitely not sound flat or dead. I wouldn't describe mine as shimmery, but there is no need to run a boost or overdrive pedal between my Cavalier and a tube amp.

I would think first about the wiring. I'm not sure how yours is wired up, but the only circuits Leo put these in had treble and bass pots.

Ken

I don't have a multi-thing, so I can't read the impedence. But when I got it installed, I was told it was reading normal, albeit low for a modern humbucker.

When I say "dead" I don't mean "quiet." It sounds like it outputs at the same amplitude or higher to the bridge pickup. It's just the sound itself is so, I don't know how to describe it. Lifeless. I know humbuckers aren't as shimmery as singles, but
I was just inquiring about the benefits of re-winding. What does it do to the sound? I hear old magnets lose their luster sometimes.

[KenC]

Personally, I would avoid rewinding unless I had at least two expert opinions that there was no other option. Keep in mind that Leo-era G&L pickups were wound by hand in the factory on a fixture that George Fullerton built, so having somebody (no matter how experienced) rewind it may give you a very different sound.

Out of curiosity, does your ASAT have a bathtub route or individual cavities for the pickups?

Ken

[Elwood]

I just wanted a noise-cancelling option that matched the neck pickup and fit in the slot,

Rio Grande does make an ASAT offset bucker -
Link

[neutralomen]

Oh my god! I notice they aren't Mfd's and don't have covers . If they made those boxy covers for them it would change my life!

[neutralomen]

Personally, I would avoid rewinding unless I had at least two expert opinions that there was no other option. Keep in mind that Leo-era G&L pickups were wound by hand in the factory on a fixture that George Fullerton built, so having somebody (no matter how experienced) rewind it may give you a very different sound.

Out of curiosity, does your ASAT have a bathtub route or individual cavities for the pickups?

Ken

Yeah I don't mind if the sound changes. I'd like it to sound modern. I got the asat both for its amazing looks and build quality.

And I believe this is back mounted with two separate holes for the pickups

[Craig]

Have you checked the wiring of the humbucker? The green wire is ground and the white wire is hot. Perhaps it is wired incorrectly.
See: G&L Cavalier E Schematic drawing by Gabe Dellevigne.

Also, please post a photo of the pickup bottom view. Looking to see the interconnect coil wires, as they should be connected together.

Just my $0.02.

[neutralomen]

Like I said, it doesn't sound like there is something "wrong" with the pickuo, just that is sounds flat and I guess old? I understand pickups don't age like tonewoods do.

I'll send more photos once my replacement neck arrives. I appreciate the feedback, but I'd also just generally like to know how much re-wibding effects sound.

[CSVeteran]

neutralomen - you would only rewind a pickup if the winding has a break in it, in which case the pickup would be dead and you would have no impedance reading with an ohm meter.

Based on what you describe, you may have a phase issue which would interfere with the frequency response and create a dull sound. Mismatched pickups can cause these types of issues. Experiment by reversing the pickup leads. Check to make sure you have good solder connections and grounds. Most pickup issues relate to improper solder connection and not the pickups.

[neutralomen]

neutralomen - you would only rewind a pickup if the winding has a break in it, in which case the pickup would be dead and you would have no impedance reading with an ohm meter.

Based on what you describe, you may have a phase issue which would interfere with the frequency response and create a dull sound. Mismatched pickups can cause these types of issues. Experiment by reversing the pickup leads. Check to make sure you have good solder connections and grounds. Most pickup issues relate to improper solder connection and not the pickups.

Interesting! Yeah I was considering just getting two rio grande white humbuckers for this and call it a day, but the vanity in me hates to see those boxy covers go!

[Elwood]

I gather the Rio Grande pups fit into the ASAT covers.
The angled offset bridge pickup looks like it would fit your cover.
I'd call them to confirm that.

[neutralomen]

I gather the Rio Grande pups fit into the ASAT covers.
The angled offset bridge pickup looks like it would fit your cover.
I'd call them to confirm that.

Yes but then there is the matter of the holes not lining up! And it being kind of strange because the pole pieces weren't meant to come through holes. ugh man. This is why I wish G&L would just make legacy parts. Not the guitar. I mean defunct parts. Such a pain.

[DanDoulogos]

I just want to rule out the obvious - does it only sound flat when you combine neck and bridge? If that's the case, I'd bet dollars to donuts the pickups are out of phase. If such is the case, just reverse the lead for the neck pickup, and all will sound right as rain.

If that isn't the case - I'd try playing with the bridge pickup height in the hope that the problem is physical orientation rather than with the pickup itself.

If adjusting the bridge pickup height does nothing, Then I'd trouble shoot the pickup itself. The reason you'd test the DCR is make sure that there isn't some extra resistance in the pickup. All a tone knob does is add resistance to the circuit which filters out the high end frequencies - if the pickup itself is showing a DCR of over 20K, something ain't right in there - and I'd suspect the leads. You can check each of the leads by testing for DCR between the tip of each lead wire and the solder blob where that wire is soldered to the pickup assembly. Shouldn't be getting any DCR in there at all. Anything shows up, and that'll be the problem (in which case you'd solder on a new lead).

If all looks well there, I'd double check the tone/volume circuit. Wiring to the wrong terminal on one of the pots might cause this, or perhaps failing to ground the volume pot properly - I'd be looking for instances where resistance is being unintentionally added to the circuit. You could put a meter across the jack and see what the DCR looks like with the bridge pickup selected and the tone and volume open wide. The DCR shouldn't be much more than the DCR of the bridge pickup. If you're seeing considerably more DCR over the jack - something isn't right in the circuit.

That's my guess at least. I'm no expert, these are the things I try based on the assumptions I'd make.

[neutralomen]

I just want to rule out the obvious - does it only sound flat when you combine neck and bridge? If that's the case, I'd bet dollars to donuts the pickups are out of phase. If such is the case, just reverse the lead for the neck pickup, and all will sound right as rain.

If that isn't the case - I'd try playing with the bridge pickup height in the hope that the problem is physical orientation rather than with the pickup itself.

If adjusting the bridge pickup height does nothing, Then I'd trouble shoot the pickup itself. The reason you'd test the DCR is make sure that there isn't some extra resistance in the pickup. All a tone knob does is add resistance to the circuit which filters out the high end frequencies - if the pickup itself is showing a DCR of over 20K, something ain't right in there - and I'd suspect the leads. You can check each of the leads by testing for DCR between the tip of each lead wire and the solder blob where that wire is soldered to the pickup assembly. Shouldn't be getting any DCR in there at all. Anything shows up, and that'll be the problem (in which case you'd solder on a new lead).

If all looks well there, I'd double check the tone/volume circuit. Wiring to the wrong terminal on one of the pots might cause this, or perhaps failing to ground the volume pot properly - I'd be looking for instances where resistance is being unintentionally added to the circuit. You could put a meter across the jack and see what the DCR looks like with the bridge pickup selected and the tone and volume open wide. The DCR shouldn't be much more than the DCR of the bridge pickup. If you're seeing considerably more DCR over the jack - something isn't right in the circuit.

That's my guess at least. I'm no expert, these are the things I try based on the assumptions I'd make.

Hah. You certainly sound like one to me!

Would it help the thread if I included audio of the pickups? It may be that this MFD offset humbuckers sounds like it should, and I'm just going mad.

[Craig]

I just want to rule out the obvious - does it only sound flat when you combine neck and bridge? If that's the case, I'd bet dollars to donuts the pickups are out of phase. If such is the case, just reverse the lead for the neck pickup, and all will sound right as rain.

If that isn't the case - I'd try playing with the bridge pickup height in the hope that the problem is physical orientation rather than with the pickup itself.

If adjusting the bridge pickup height does nothing, Then I'd trouble shoot the pickup itself. The reason you'd test the DCR is make sure that there isn't some extra resistance in the pickup. All a tone knob does is add resistance to the circuit which filters out the high end frequencies - if the pickup itself is showing a DCR of over 20K, something ain't right in there - and I'd suspect the leads. You can check each of the leads by testing for DCR between the tip of each lead wire and the solder blob where that wire is soldered to the pickup assembly. Shouldn't be getting any DCR in there at all. Anything shows up, and that'll be the problem (in which case you'd solder on a new lead).

If all looks well there, I'd double check the tone/volume circuit. Wiring to the wrong terminal on one of the pots might cause this, or perhaps failing to ground the volume pot properly - I'd be looking for instances where resistance is being unintentionally added to the circuit. You could put a meter across the jack and see what the DCR looks like with the bridge pickup selected and the tone and volume open wide. The DCR shouldn't be much more than the DCR of the bridge pickup. If you're seeing considerably more DCR over the jack - something isn't right in the circuit.

That's my guess at least. I'm no expert, these are the things I try based on the assumptions I'd make.

Hah. You certainly sound like one to me!

Would it help the thread if I included audio of the pickups? It may be that this MFD offset humbuckers sounds like it should, and I'm just going mad.

Sure, do post some audio of the different pickup selections. For posting inline audio, see: Tutorial: Posting audio files.

BTW, did you verify that both pickups are wired correctly?

[neutralomen]

I just want to rule out the obvious - does it only sound flat when you combine neck and bridge? If that's the case, I'd bet dollars to donuts the pickups are out of phase. If such is the case, just reverse the lead for the neck pickup, and all will sound right as rain.

If that isn't the case - I'd try playing with the bridge pickup height in the hope that the problem is physical orientation rather than with the pickup itself.

If adjusting the bridge pickup height does nothing, Then I'd trouble shoot the pickup itself. The reason you'd test the DCR is make sure that there isn't some extra resistance in the pickup. All a tone knob does is add resistance to the circuit which filters out the high end frequencies - if the pickup itself is showing a DCR of over 20K, something ain't right in there - and I'd suspect the leads. You can check each of the leads by testing for DCR between the tip of each lead wire and the solder blob where that wire is soldered to the pickup assembly. Shouldn't be getting any DCR in there at all. Anything shows up, and that'll be the problem (in which case you'd solder on a new lead).

If all looks well there, I'd double check the tone/volume circuit. Wiring to the wrong terminal on one of the pots might cause this, or perhaps failing to ground the volume pot properly - I'd be looking for instances where resistance is being unintentionally added to the circuit. You could put a meter across the jack and see what the DCR looks like with the bridge pickup selected and the tone and volume open wide. The DCR shouldn't be much more than the DCR of the bridge pickup. If you're seeing considerably more DCR over the jack - something isn't right in the circuit.

That's my guess at least. I'm no expert, these are the things I try based on the assumptions I'd make.

Hah. You certainly sound like one to me!

Would it help the thread if I included audio of the pickups? It may be that this MFD offset humbuckers sounds like it should, and I'm just going mad.

Sure, do post some audio of the different pickup selections. For posting inline audio, see: Tutorial: Posting audio files.

BTW, did you verify that both pickups are wired correctly?

Well, the guy who did it for me was an eminent luthier named Doug Proper(I don't know how much reach that name has). He did warn me that installing the HB would cause a "3 coil effect" in the middle position. Since I never use the middle position, I didn't mind. But since he said that, I assumed he knew what he was doing?

[neutralomen]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0yYZNg3lBDx

I hope that works^

Here are the samples. I play chords, a picking pattern, and a fingerstyle on the bridge, middle and neck settings respectively.

The HB sounds quieter(which I think it should, right?)but also, I dunoo. something about it. Maybe that's how clean humbuckers should sound. I come from a single coil background.

Let me know if this sounds right to you gents!

[DanDoulogos]

After listening to the audio (granted, I am listening through some pretty cheap USB headphones), I don't think I am hearing anything that sounds "wrong".

It could be that something more pronounced in person isn't finding its way to the recording when listened to through a cheap headset - but I don't think I hear anything such as I was expecting. This sounds to my old ears pretty standard fare. Humbuckers don't have that airy/glassy sound you get with Single coil pups. Is that what you're not hearing?

EDIT: I am curious to hear what others think. As you get older, the old ears aren't what they used to be

[cho]

First, beautiful ASAT you have there! I don't usually like neck binding, but that looks great! And the DFV on an ASAT is always great to see! I also really wish G&L reissued the Cav/HG-2 pickups. I really like them. They have a slightly thicker, meatier, sound than the single coil, although not quite as "airy/glassy/chimey" as the single coils, as others have mentioned. But the humbucker in the bridge gives a nice contrast to the single coil in the neck.

After listening to your sound samples, I would say there is nothing wrong with your pickup. It sounds full on the bottom end, but still has a nice mid range and high end. The only issue I would say is that the volume is not quite matched with your neck pickup. I recommend to get the bridge pickup closer to the strings. It is surprising how close the MFDs can be to the strings and still sound good. This also might help increase the dynamics. The thing I love about the MFDs is how the sound changes when you really dig into the strings. I put my MFDs quite close to the strings for this reason. Good luck!

[neutralomen]

Hmm. Good to know! I do have the pole pieces pretty low so I'll try to bring them up and see what that does. Thanks everyone, for listening!

And thanks. This was from the era when the asat special deluxe came in ash with a maple top. Since I insisted on the baby blue paint, only g&l knows if they gave me the maple underneath. They may have just made it all in ash. It is certainly heavy enough to have the maple top

[FZTNT]

I would agree with Cho in that the Humbucker looks a bit low. It's surprising what difference there is in the sound and dynamics with raising the treble side a bit and tweaking the poles up a bit on the GBD strings. Fiddle around with it a bit and I think you can dial it in to your liking. It didn't sound "bad" to me at all.

Have fun, good luck and keep us posted.

Tom