What Is the best type of nut.

[FZTNT]

Lately there has been some discussion about nuts on various sub-forums here so I thought I would start a thread specific to this question.

What I would like to know is:
What nut material do you use?
Why is that your choice?
Do you replace your own nuts and how difficult do you think it is? Do you start with a pre-cut etc?
What is the most common material that G&L has used over time?
I know someone had asked what type of animal are he bone nuts made from and I don't think that was answered.
Do you think anyone would mind if I dug up Jimi Hendrix and used one of his finger bones for a guitar nut?
Does anyone use dees for this purpose? (there, I've gotten the inevitable nut jokes out of the way so no need for more.)

I'm quite interested to hear everyones thoughts as I am about to have the need to replace a couple nuts on my guitars.

Tom

[Craig]

What is the most common material that G&L has used over time?

Tom

See: Re: Nut Material ?

[darwinohm]

FZTNT, Timely post. I just finished the nut tonight for my 24 3/4 scale neck that I just finished painting. I really like the scale and have put this neck on my John Mayer strat, which I converted a couple of years ago to a Bass VI. I did post a thread on the forum about that conversion. I now do all my own nut and fret work after obtaining the tools to do these things.

I have discovered that the nut work is one of the most important and needed on many new guitars. I have been through most of my G&L's and several of them were not cut low enough. It really affects the playability on the first several frets and also clears up some intonation issues. First let me answer what material I used for this.

I used a bone blank and totally made the nut, filing and shaping from scratch. It was my first one and I wanted to do it from scratch. Now that I have done it and cut several others to my wishes I will use the preslotted blanks. It saves a ton of time. I first made the nut, installed it on the guitar and cut the slots. After getting everything correct I played it for a few days, removed it this evening and shaped the top and polished it. I make the nut snug in the slot and do not glue it. Here are some photos:

Shaped the top with a file, the used 600, 1000, 1500, and 2000 sand paper to get the polished look.


I then used polishing compound to get the gloss.


The slot is prepared to install:


And finally strung up:



And here is the whole rig.



As for materials, bone is nice to cut slots with the file. TusQ is more difficult to cut but you don't have to be as careful as the file takes less material. I don't use plastic as it is probably a waste of time as long as your doing the work. My favorite is a zero fret or a Fender LSR nut which I have installed on a g&L Tribute. If all my guitars had the zero fret, I would be happy but now having the tools, I enjoy doing it and life is good. My opinion for what it's worth. -- Darwin

[FZTNT]

FZTNT, Timely post. I just finished the nut tonight for my 24 3/4 scale neck that I just finished painting. I really like the scale and have put this neck on my John Mayer strat, which I converted a couple of years ago to a Bass VI. I did post a thread on the forum about that conversion. I now do all my own nut and fret work after obtaining the tools to do these things.

I have discovered that the nut work is one of the most important and needed on many new guitars. I have been through most of my G&L's and several of them were not cut low enough. It really affects the playability on the first several frets and also clears up some intonation issues. First let me answer what material I used for this.

I used a bone blank and totally made the nut, filing and shaping from scratch. It was my first one and I wanted to do it from scratch. Now that I have done it and cut several others to my wishes I will use the preslotted blanks. It saves a ton of time. I first made the nut, installed it on the guitar and cut the slots. After getting everything correct I played it for a few days, removed it this evening and shaped the top and polished it. Here are some photos:

Shaped the top with a file, the used 600, 1000, 1500, and 2000 sand paper to get the polished look.


I then used polishing compound to get the gloss.


The slot is prepared to install:


And finally strung up:



And here is the whole rig.



As for materials, bone is nice to cut slots with the file. TusQ is more difficult to cut but you don't have to be as careful as the file takes less material. I don't use plastic as it is probably a waste of time as long as your doing the work. My favorite is a zero fret or a Fender LSR nut which I have installed on a g&L Tribute. If all my guitars had the zero fret, I would be happy but now having the tools, I enjoy doing it and life is good. My opinion for what it's worth. -- Darwin

That looks cool. What size files do you use and how do you radius the top of the nut to match the fret board radius? Or, are the pre cut nuts radiused on top already? I am just figuring what to order for a pre-cut nut for a 7.5 inch radius neck. I have seen a lot of videos on the subject but they never quite go into all the details. If I cut the little tabs off the bottom will the nut bend to the correct radius or do I have to address this by sanding the top. I have read how important it is to match the radius at both the nut and the bridge to be optimal all around.

Tom

[darwinohm]

Great questions Tom. I use the Stewmac slotting files and they are .012, .020, .026, .032, .036, and .042. They work well for most electric gauges.

The radius is important but keep in mind that the nut slots in reference to the top of the fret takes care of that. I use the Stewmac dial micrometer to set the nut slot height from the fret. My G&Ls have flat bottom nuts and so do my Fenders unless you have a 7 1/4 radius. That is why some nuts have tabs on the bottom you can break off. I would not use those on a flat nut slot as I think the contact is too minimal. I would buy the proper nut for the neck I am doing. If you have a radiused slot and a flat nut bottom, it is hard to cut the radius on the bottom of the nut.

Cut the slot for the strings to the proper fret clearance and set the nut in the guitar and string it up to check everything out. If it plays well, then it is time to shape the top of the nut. I remove it and use a sanding block to shape the top so the large string is at least half way in the slot and the thin string is completely in the slot. I then round the edges and polish it and reinstall. I mentioned that I like the nut to fit snug in the slot and I do not glue it. It will not move unless you hit it on the end with something and it is easy to tap back in place.

Tom, if you break the tabs off the radiused nut it should work fine for the 7 1/4. Cutting the nut slots for the proper string/fret clearance will solve the top radius issue.

It is difficult to get clearance specs for distance from the strings to the frets. There is a reason for that as it can be different for each player. Fender seems to set the spec at .020 from the string to the fret at the first fret. I am a light picker and like mine about .018 at the low E and about .013 at the high E. the others I set in between at about 1.5 to 2 thousands increase for each string as I work toward the low E. This has been a long answer but I hope that it answers your questions. -- Darwin

Edited to correct the low E clearance spec. -- Darwin

[geoff douglas]

great topic guys and well done Darwin, what a fantastic clear informative reply,,Thank you both for the thread
Cheers and best wishes to all,,

[darwinohm]

Well, thank you Geoff!!!!! -- Darwin

[FZTNT]

Thanks Darwin, This certainly gives me a place to start. I think I will pick up a simple uncut bone nut radiuses to 7.5 on the bottom as I think my nut slots are radiuses along with the neck. Or am I wrong? You say your guitars have flat nut slots and are all rep BBE instruments. Mine are also all pre BBE such as the Nighthawk and a couple old F-100s and some Invaders. I was under the impression that all of these were radiuses nut slots, no?

Great information though and I will keep the thread updated as I go to see what happens I will start with the Nighthawk as it is currently just too unplayable because of the deep cut nut.

Gotta run dinner is ready...

Tom

[Craig]

Thanks Darwin, This certainly gives me a place to start. I think I will pick up a simple uncut bone nut radiuses to 7.5 on the bottom as I think my nut slots are radiuses along with the neck. Or am I wrong? You say your guitars have flat nut slots and are all rep BBE instruments. Mine are also all pre BBE such as the Nighthawk and a couple old F-100s and some Invaders. I was under the impression that all of these were radiuses nut slots, no?

Great information though and I will keep the thread updated as I go to see what happens I will start with the Nighthawk as it is currently just too unplayable because of the deep cut nut.

Gotta run dinner is ready...

Tom

i suggest you search for this post: Are G&L nuts curved or flat on the bottom?.

[Elwood]

... I will start with the Nighthawk as it is currently just too unplayable because of the deep cut nut.

Tom

This trick might get your Nighthawk playable until you get a replacement nut:
http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Re ... _soda.html

[FZTNT]

Thanks Darwin, This certainly gives me a place to start. I think I will pick up a simple uncut bone nut radiuses to 7.5 on the bottom as I think my nut slots are radiuses along with the neck. Or am I wrong? You say your guitars have flat nut slots and are all rep BBE instruments. Mine are also all pre BBE such as the Nighthawk and a couple old F-100s and some Invaders. I was under the impression that all of these were radiuses nut slots, no?

Great information though and I will keep the thread updated as I go to see what happens I will start with the Nighthawk as it is currently just too unplayable because of the deep cut nut.

Gotta run dinner is ready...

Tom

i suggest you search for this post: Are G&L nuts curved or flat on the bottom?.

Craig,

Both this link and the other one you posted I have seen before. This is why I ask the questions. They seem to contradict what has been said in other posts and some of what Darwin has said in his posts. There are many differences in the nuts from certain era's, models, trip vs USA etc. So I am looking for info and tips from folks that have actually done this a few times or more to see what the "ground truth" is, not what some lame old post that I have seen before says.

Thanks for the input,

Tom

[FZTNT]

... I will start with the Nighthawk as it is currently just too unplayable because of the deep cut nut.

Tom

This trick might get your Nighthawk playable until you get a replacement nut:
http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Re ... _soda.html

Thanks tor the info Elwood. I have seen this done before and for one slot in an emergency it's a good quick fix, but I would need to fill all six. So I might as well just get a new one. I might be in the vicinity of a Guitar center latter today and stop in and see what they have.

Tom

[Craig]

Thanks Darwin, This certainly gives me a place to start. I think I will pick up a simple uncut bone nut radiuses to 7.5 on the bottom as I think my nut slots are radiuses along with the neck. Or am I wrong? You say your guitars have flat nut slots and are all rep BBE instruments. Mine are also all pre BBE such as the Nighthawk and a couple old F-100s and some Invaders. I was under the impression that all of these were radiuses nut slots, no?

Great information though and I will keep the thread updated as I go to see what happens I will start with the Nighthawk as it is currently just too unplayable because of the deep cut nut.

Gotta run dinner is ready...

Tom

i suggest you search for this post: Are G&L nuts curved or flat on the bottom?.

Craig,

Both this link and the other one you posted I have seen before. This is why I ask the questions. They seem to contradict what has been said in other posts and some of what Darwin has said in his posts. There are many differences in the nuts from certain era's, models, trip vs USA etc. So I am looking for info and tips from folks that have actually done this a few times or more to see what the "ground truth" is, not what some lame old post that I have seen before says.

Thanks for the input,

Tom

Tom,

Well, not being a mindreader, it would have been helpful if you would have mentioned that you had already read those posts as part of your initial post.
I can only go by what you have posted and replied to those two questions as such.

Lately there has been some discussion about nuts on various sub-forums here so I thought I would start a thread specific to this question.

What I would like to know is:
What nut material do you use?
Why is that your choice?
Do you replace your own nuts and how difficult do you think it is? Do you start with a pre-cut etc?
What is the most common material that G&L has used over time?
I know someone had asked what type of animal are he bone nuts made from and I don't think that was answered.
Do you think anyone would mind if I dug up Jimi Hendrix and used one of his finger bones for a guitar nut?
Does anyone use dees for this purpose? (there, I've gotten the inevitable nut jokes out of the way so no need for more.)

I'm quite interested to hear everyones thoughts as I am about to have the need to replace a couple nuts on my guitars.

Tom

I reviewed the two posts I referenced and see that the Nut Material post is in reference to an early Legacy which is, of course, a BBE-era instrument. So, my reply focuses on 1992 to present time.

So, I have added a new post, Nut Material used over the years at G&L.

As far as the Are G&L nuts curved or flat on the bottom? post, I feel it covers all eras of G&L instruments.

Hope this helps.

[FZTNT]

Craig,
Thanks for the info. It's not about being a mind reader, it's just that I was looking for a group dialog from folks that have done this and what their experiences and materials were. That's why I wanted it in the Projects Sub-Forum so more people would see it and get involved. I am about to venture into this type work on my guitars and want to be as informed as I can. I already do all kinds of setup stuff myself, am a world class solderer and have just never done nut shaping and replacement before. It's a delicate procedure and I want to get it right.

Darwin has been of great help and I would love to here from some other members as to their experiences.

Tom

[DanDoulogos]

All other things being equal, I gotta get me one of them Hanes brand polishing clothes.

[darwinohm]

DanDoulogos noted:

All other things being equal, I gotta get me one of them Hanes brand polishing clothes.

Right you are Dan. These are the things I fail to notice when I am working on guitars. They do make excellent polishing cloths after their final wearing and a fresh wash! Good eye! -- Darwin

[geoff douglas]

Would i be right in saying there is no best material for a nut, or bridge for that matter. Is it not the case that every nut material has a different mass, therefore when a string vibrates is the question actually what is the guitar designer wanting to do with the resultant energy from that vibration. Does he want to transfer it to the neck and body for the harmonic rebound back into the string or does he want to lose as little energy into the neck and body as possible to maintain maximum string vibration energy. I would be willing to bet that a nut made of a modern light ceramic would provide a different vibration characteristic to a nut made of gold or brass for instance. I think its a trade off situation in the search for the desired tone. If there was a "best" material by now i think it would have been adopted by all manufacturers. I'm not sure at all if i'm on the right track about this topic but it is nice to think about it isn't it...
Cheers all
G

[DanDoulogos]

@Darwin: It is only because I have on occasion drawn water from the same well, that I noticed it and commented. It made me smile that I wasn't the only one. It was a good smile.

@Geoff: You make a good point - the notion of "Best" is going to depend on the intended function of the nut, and how well that nut answers the function it is put to. Yet even when we define the quality of a nut by it's intended function we still end up with personal preference being the deciding factor in most cases.

Perhaps it is more precise to address nut materials from the perspective of what does this material do better than other materials, as well as, what are some of the (possible) weaknesses of the same material. Bone for instance, even cut from the same animal - varies in density. Nuts cut from the same bone can sound quite different. This can also be said of any organic nut material.

Composites are typically more consistent, yet some are superior to others when it comes to this or that.

I think the best we can do is recognize that certain materials are better than others, depending on what we're going for - and leave the rest to personal preference. I think that is sort of what you were getting at: There is no single material solution for all purposes.

[darwinohm]

I want to thank Tom for starting this discussion and the others who have responded making this an interesting discussion. I miss the technical discussions that we used to have on the forum and post very infrequently as a result.

The material of the nut opens an interesting discussion in itself. When we look at the function of the nut we think about string vibration transfer and tuning stability. I have already said that I really like a zero fret. My limited experience is that the nut height is very critical to the ease of playing. It is also my experience that many of my guitar have needed at least one of the slots cut. Of my guitars, the Fenders have been very consistent at about .020. The boutique models have been very close for the most part. The nut tools that I recently purchased have paid off.

As for materials, what i have noticed is that bone is quite easy to file. The files bite quite well. The Graftech and Tusq are more difficult to file as the file does not bite as well. They appear to be a slippery material which I believe is the intent. So it takes more file pressure to get the job done and for me seems a bit more risky to cut. I do not like the odor of sanding bone but a nicely polished bone nut is beautiful in my opinion, especially the unbleached bone.

I believe the lower friction I feel in the file on Graphtech and Tusq saddles would equate to less string friction for tuning. After cutting a nut grove I use a fine graphite lead pencil and place it in each grove and the tuning ease is amazing and stable. The string slides into tune without the back and forth adjustment often required. I have to believe what I see.

I have wondered how a brass nut would work. I have used only the materials I have already mentioned and some of my guitars have plastic, but I wouldn't use plastic for a replacement but it may be a good choice for your first nut cut. I used a bone blank and it took more than 2 hours to cut and shape. Generally I would use a pre-slotted blank to save a lot of time. I would always save the original nut to use as a rough pattern.

Tom I hope you get the job done on you G&L's. It is very rewarding to do you own! -- Darwin

[Craig]

Craig,
Thanks for the info. It's not about being a mind reader, it's just that I was looking for a group dialog from folks that have done this and what their experiences and materials were. That's why I wanted it in the Projects Sub-Forum so more people would see it and get involved. I am about to venture into this type work on my guitars and want to be as informed as I can. I already do all kinds of setup stuff myself, am a world class solderer and have just never done nut shaping and replacement before. It's a delicate procedure and I want to get it right.

Darwin has been of great help and I would love to here from some other members as to their experiences.

Tom

Tom,

Once you have decided which type of nut you want to use, then please post your nut replacement project with photos on the Projects Page.
I agree with you that Darwin has been a great help here and in the past on the many projects he has posted.

Looking forward to seeing your post there.

[FZTNT]

I will post as much as I can when I get to this. Right now I cannot find a supplier that sells a pre-cut nut, in any material, that matches the nut on my Nighthawk. So I need to decide if I want to try cutting the slots my self, or, just taking it to a luthier and have them do it. The latter would make for a quite boring post. It's only about a fifteen buck investment for the nut if I use a premium material. I have some files that should do the work and I'm a "measure twice, cut once" kind of guy so we'll see what magic I can pull off.

Tom