What Joe said

[y2kc]

I watched a video recently that featured Joe Bonamassa at his home talking about vintage guitar collecting. He put to words something I have felt for ever since I started collecting guitars in the 80's.

He says that if you have to see a vintage guitar dismantled in order to appraise it's value then you should not be collecting guitars.

For me it devalues the instrument. Cracked neck joints and touched screws warn of an undisclosed repair, mods or d.i.y exploration. Terms like " unmolested, uncirculated and original " carry as much weight as rarity when it comes to determining value in the end. As I have said before, things are only original once.

There is no benefit to removing a vintage G&L neck unless you have a repair that requires this. Even then it needs to be performed by someone that has done this before. The tight construction tolerances are what make the micro tilt adjustment work.
This neck was not meant to be taken off over and over again.

I like to buy old G&L guitars. When I see certain telling signs that a guitar has been disassembled, I lose interest. I saw a Broadcaster for sale over the weekend and of course the neck had been taken off. Anyone who knows that guitar doesn't want to see it taken apart.

You cannot buy a Picasso and restretch the canvas in your basement and not expect someone with a trained eye to notice. Remember _ things are only original once.

These are just my thoughts

[FZTNT]

I don't know about that. I believe that at least with the three bolt necks, they were designed to be taken apart and adjusted by competent craftsmen. Not necessarily a trained luthier but the beauty of leo's design, and I believe his intent, is that someone with basic mechanical skills can remove the neck, make adjustments, turn the truss rod, set the intonation etc, without the fear of destroying the instrument. Why else would he have included a pamphlet with each guitar showing exactly this kind of thing. G&L guitars design has taken some of the guess work out of basic setup and adjustment and that includes taking a neck off.

Now, with that said I am much less likely to take a four bolt neck off because there is no easy way to realign the neck like the micro tilt adjustment. But you can't adjust the micro tilt without loosening the neck screws. If you are a traveling musician and go through many climate changes in short periods of time the need for such adjustments might be more plentiful. If there are obvious rounding of the philips head screw edges on the neck of a guitar you might think the neck was taken on and off a lot. But it could have never been more that "cracked open" bit for just such adjustments and no more. If you found a purple Broadcaster that one belonged to prince would it be worth less if it looked like the neck was taken off a few times? Wouldn't you be just dying to see if there even was a signed and dated inspection sticker under the neck? I would.

So I do see your point with some things. Refine drive me craze, especially when someone still wants to sell as original in price. Changing pickups, adding Bigsby's or taking them off, even changing tuners is a turn off for me. I am currently struggling with just replacing the nut on my Nighthawk because it would no longer be original. But it's unplayable unless maybe I go up to a much higher string gauge. But how can you tell with vintage guitars. If it was played any great amount the nut would have almost had to be changed at some point.

So how original is that collectable guitar you have or are looking at? Somethings you just can't tell for sure.

lastly, if I had JB's money I would be pretty dam picky too, but you gotta pay for it. As far as "original" is concerned, simply taking the neck off still makes it original.

Tom

[yowhatsshakin]

Casey,

For bolt-on guitars, I agree with Tom. Back in the days the whole reason Leo went that way was to avoid lots of labor associated with resetting necks and make them easily replaceable. And of course I do take guitars apart in the name of documenting them and verifying data. And i feel no qualms about that if done professionally. Although you're right you cannot "restretch" the canvas of a Picasso, you can bet your fanny the painting is researched meticulously, mostly with non-invasive methods (X-ray, MRI) but sometime a small paint chip taken from the side of the painting (where it is wrapped around the frame) is retrieved to be assayed.

Your example of a Broadcaster is interesting too since there are known to be some imposters floating around. A quick look in the neck pocket would be a good consistently check to see whether everything is on the up-and-up.

But in the end, it also comes down to differences in philosophy. What is vintage guitar? Has it become an "archeological" artifact to be preserved as a relic? Or is it still the utilitarian implement to be played and rocked on? Although there is plenty of room on both sides, my thinking is this: what is the use of proclaiming these '59 Bursts with PAFs are sonic wonders to behold if nobody plays the damn thing and nobody hence can hear the result?

- Jos

[y2kc]

Hey guys,

fztnt: The term competent craftsman is the term that gets my attention. I am considered a Master Craftsmen in the woodworking word. My 37 year old company specializes in historic restoration of Marquetry hardwood flooring. This is the art of inlay.
I am currently working in a 59 room estate designed by W.W. Boynton built in 1879 and a 1930 Stanley Anderson home in Lake Forest Il. We work in homes here on the North Shore and Gold Coast of Chicago. We have worked in homes built by
David Adler, Frank lloyd Wright, August Fiedler etc, etc. and I would not allow any of my fellow real craftsmen to touch my guitars.

You do not need to take the neck off for any of the procedures you mentioned. Not one. You are taking them off because you want to.

Yo: Your collection is interesting. As you know I used to have a ton of bbe era guitars as well. Asat '50 #1. Asat Supers #1 and #2, 20th Anniversary # 1 and #22 and the list goes on. Great guitars that have little collectible value in the end.
Pre-BBe G&Ls do have a strong following. We have sold guitars to Japan, uk, Italy, Canada and all points between. All they want to know is if it is original. They will not pay full dollar if they knew it had been rebuilt in my basement or at the
kitchen table. They want a real honest slice of Fullerton made Americana.
Our current collection of 60+ mint pre bbe G&Ls is unmolested, uncirculated and only documented for insurance reasons. Hardcore collectors really like the fact that the screws are untouched and necks have not been removed. Listen to Joe.

Both of you guys are true fans of Leo's work, that is easy to see. I am just telling you what I have learned since starting this silly hobby in 1989. We also have a great collection of the first five years of Heritage guitars. Both companies have great stories.
I enjoy seeing all of your guitars but am often confused why they have been taken apart because they are only original once. We all have different views on this and I hope you respect mine.

y2kc

[cho]

My $0.02: I don't take off the necks of my guitars, because, as y2kc says, there is no purpose, other than the date info. For me, knowing the exact date of the neck is not very important. Potentially damaging these beautiful guitars is more important for me.

Having said that, I do swap pickups in my guitars. I do it, knowing that it is reversible and I can go back to stock, if necessary. I guess I feel more confident that I can "reversibly" swap pickups, but I'm not sure I can "reversibly" remove and replace a neck...

[glvourot]

I have absolutely no problems taking necks off or knowing that the neck has been taken off. The argument that " its only original once " does not make much sense to me. In that case changing the strings once would make it unoriginal. I have problems with vintage guitars that have had tuners, pick ups, pick guards, knobs etc replaced and people still try to get big prices out of these. That would be non- original to me. A nut replacement is not a big deal. No chance in hell that I would not want to see Leo's signature if I owned a Broadcaster. Interesting perspective though.

[Miles Smiles]

It may make a difference, if you buy a guitar for playing or if you buy just for looking on it and collect them.

I bought them for playing and therefore, I wanted to be everything clean an working as it was brand new. So I took them apart as much as necessary and possible. Especially the bridges, I always completely disassembled to get rid of all the rust and having them adjustable again. Of course removing the neck was just for the time stamps, but it's one of the easiest things in my opinion and just because the neck pocket is that very accurate, it's no problem putting that stuff together again and having the string alignment still the way it has to be, without pulling on the neck while tightening the screws.

On my SC-2 I even soldered the pots out, disassembled them, cleaned them and did put them together and in the circuit again, dead silent now. Before they were very noisy and not usable.

[DanDoulogos]

If I owned an actual museum piece, like a pristine, all original, 59 Les Paul Standard, you can bet that it would stay all original. I probably wouldn't even play it, lest in doing so I somehow eroded the value of it. Even if it sounded like crap - I'd keep it original.

Sadly, the main enjoyment I would get from owning such a guitar would not be in playing it, but rather in basking in the dark envy of those who wanted it for themselves. Note: I suffer no illusions about how pathetic that is.

I appreciate an all original guitar, but I am not persuaded by this appreciation to retain a guitar's purity if I believe modifying that guitar will serve my own purposes more precisely. I can't see myself losing any sleep over that. That isn't to suggest that I am recklessly modding guitars in my collection - but rather that I am "okay" with tweaking a guitar if I think doing so makes it more playable for me personally.

[WitSok]

But in the end, it also comes down to differences in philosophy. What is vintage guitar? Has it become an "archeological" artifact to be preserved as a relic? Or is it still the utilitarian implement to be played and rocked on? Although there is plenty of room on both sides, my thinking is this: what is the use of proclaiming these '59 Bursts with PAFs are sonic wonders to behold if nobody plays the damn thing and nobody hence can hear the result?

+1 Everything I've bought gets played, I'm not intereated in stockpiling artifacts. You chould argue if the guitar has ever been played it's not original. Got to keep it sealed in its case just like action figures in their boxes. To each thier own. Since my focus is to play the instruments, I have not issues with repair to make them functional. So in Tom's case I'd have the nut replaced and if the material was upgraded in the process - that's ok with me. If something had a plastic nut I would upgrade if it needed replacing. That juat me...

Regardless your reasons for collecting, have fun. Cheers, Dan

[Miles Smiles]

If I owned an actual museum piece, like a pristine, all original, 59 Les Paul Standard, you can bet that it would stay all original.

I would immediately sell that crap.

Than I could buy a 59 reissue, find a master builder who takes it apart and put it together again exactly the way it has been done in 59. I bet, it's better in sound and everything than an original and the best of it, it will cost "only" 10 or 15 thousand and is playable. With the rest of the money I may buy a big house and all the G&L guitar models available.

[FZTNT]

Casey, that sounds like a fun as hell job. Probably a lot of hard work and eating dust but very fulfilling. I wish I had had a chance earlier in my life to get more into woodworking. I love building things. I knew a guy in Maine, last name actually is Carpenter, that mostly builds one of a kind furniture like bureaus and cabinets that sell for prices in the five figure range. The thing is, he cuts down the tree, mills the wood, dries it for years in some cases, planes it etc. and they are the most awesome pieces you can imagine. He did this for years using mostly hand tools. He built a 36 foot diameter yurt using only a chainsaw mill, hand tools and even ripped all the roof boards by hand. He has lived in it for many years. All the wood comes from his property so most of his work has never left his land except as furniture. He also never builds two of the same thing unless commissioned to build matching bureaus or chests. I sure wish I had a spec of his talent working with wood.

I think all the points made in this post are valid and to each his own. I have guitars that I have not taken apart and ones that I have. The ones I have taken apart play and sound the same or better than before, mostly because I am very careful and most of all respectful of what I am doing. I will sling my SG around like a maniac but would never attempt to remove the set neck. That talent I do not poses. And I won't mess with four bolt necks because I don't want to get into shims and such. I have never replaced a pickup or bridge and will rarely even remove a pickup other to look under it for ID purposes. But, I still consider most of my guitars to be "all original" because all the parts are from the original build. Even if a neck were to be replaced under warranty, I don't consider it original although there are people out there who would.

Enough for now, would love to hear and see more of your collection, it sounds like you have some nice instruments.

Tom

[y2kc]

My point really is about the micro tilt neck joint. The construction tolerances are so fine in this delicate area of the guitar that multiple neck removals will eventually and sometimes instantly effect the integrity. The result, even when preformed by a luthier is often a cracked neck pocket. This area of the guitar is a work of art. George Fullerton was a genius.

I have guitars that I have worn the the frets away and have had them re-fretted. I have had new nuts installed as well. This is something that all guitars will face down the road if played often. What I do not do is invite trouble to the joint that attaches the two pieces of wood together that form my guitars. It is attached with wood screws. Every time a wood screw is removed and screwed back it looses a small amount of it's original gripping strength. That is why the micro tilt is adjusted by only backing off the screws. Leo and George were smarter than your average bear and if they had wanted a guitar that was made to snap apart at a moments notice, they would have done things a little differently. They would have used threaded inserts and machine screws for one and allowed more space in the pocket so it could just slide out.

If you have an original G&L please remember that they are not making any more. They finished in 1991. These are not erector sets or building blocks, they are musical instruments produced by two of Americas great inventors.

My question is why has it become so popular to take a guitar apart when photographing it for a sale? There is nothing of any significance written under any pre-bbe G&L neck that would make or break a sale. Any ideas why folks are doing this?

y2kc

[y2kc]

Tom,

What I will say about this collection is that it has kept me busy and it has been enjoyable. I have seen many guitars slid out from underneath beds and from the backs of closets. 70% of my guitars were located without the help of the internet.
Right now I am still acquiring G&L's and Heritage guitars and playing more than ever. Right now I am playing 3 guitars, a Nighthawk, a Heritage H-140 (B series) and a reissue Danelectro. Believe it or not the Danelectro get the most time. It has a snarl that suits the amps I use and style of music I play. Cheap as hell and a ton of fun.

y2kc

[FZTNT]

Tom,

What I will say about this collection is that it has kept me busy and it has been enjoyable. I have seen many guitars slid out from underneath beds and from the backs of closets. 70% of my guitars were located without the help of the internet.
Right now I am still acquiring G&L's and Heritage guitars and playing more than ever. Right now I am playing 3 guitars, a Nighthawk, a Heritage H-140 (B series) and a reissue Danelectro. Believe it or not the Danelectro get the most time. It has a snarl that suits the amps I use and style of music I play. Cheap as hell and a ton of fun.

y2kc

Cool thing Casey. I don't play out as much as I used to but try to do some jamming with friends as often as I can.
What gauge strings do you use on your Nighthawk? It seem the previous owner used pretty heavy strings, I like a lighter string. I just love the sound of the guitar so much I want to start playing it more. If I replace the nut to accommodate the lighter strings what would you suggest? Bone, which I believe is what is on there now and original, TUSQ or some other plastic nut. I am confident I can do this myself if I can find a precut nut that fits the string spacing and the radius. A little sanding of the string slots would be ok but I don't want to get into buying expensive nut files. Do you think I can find the right nut or should I just have a luthier do it? I don't see on the StewMac site to the TUSQ site that they sell nuts for any particular gauge. Does G&L sell exact replacement nuts. It would seem they would have a few lying around.

Thanks for tips,

Tom

[y2kc]

Tom,

This Nighthawk has a set of DAddario nickel wound 9.5-44 's. I have been trying them on all my guitars lately just for a change. I put them on the Danelectro on Saturday and they seem perfect for that guitar.

I like this Nighthawk. I imagine it is pretty much like a Skyhawk or s-500. Tons of fun with a screaming blues ability. This guitar is inspiring to play. This Nighthawk came out of Michigan from the original owner and I took to it from the moment it arrived. Found it on Craigslist last year for $600.00, white and clean as can be.

As far as the nut goes for your guitar, I would find a qualified luthier to do this work. As I mentioned in another post, I was fortunate to have Ed Reynolds helping me out with repairs and advise when I was younger man. When he left Chicago he recommended Joe Campagna who takes care of Buddy Guy's guitars. I have been in the right place at the right time.
Having a friend that is a total geek about anything is so valuable. Anyone can remove and glue back in a nut but there are tricks to the trade that these guy's practice everyday.

Every town (I guess) has a guy that lives and breaths this stuff and it is worth the cost to have this done well. It is not that costly. Seek out the best in your area and tell them that it is a G&L. They all have their feelings about these guitars but most just have a very high regard for Leo and George. Most likely they will be interested in working on this guitar.

Turn that guitar up!

y2kc

[FZTNT]

I have been using D'Addario super light nickel wound 9 - 42's lately. I didn't realize they made 9.5's. I was thinking of trying a higher gauge but that's not enough of a jump perhaps. I have a couple guitars in need of a re-string so I was thinking of trying some 11's.

Don't know a decent luthier in the N. VA / DC area but maybe Ken C or someone else on the forum might know someone around here. Had some excellent guys down in Orlando for man-years but that's a bit far to travell for a setup. I may be moving back there sometime in the next several months so maybe I will wait.

Thanks, I will also look for those 9.5 strings just for fun. Do you really think they make a big difference over straight up 9's?

Tom

[Tooslowhand]

I lived in No. Virginia in early 2000s. I took a classical guitar for repair that worked out very well. I THINK it was Arlington Fret Works, but at my age I can't be certain any longer.

[KenC]

Don't know a decent luthier in the N. VA / DC area but maybe Ken C or someone else on the forum might know someone around here. Had some excellent guys down in Orlando for man-years but that's a bit far to travell for a setup. I may be moving back there sometime in the next several months so maybe I will wait.

Tom

The only repairman I know in this area works at Atomic Music. I think his name is Paul, but it's been several years since I've spoke with him. If you call the store they can let you know when he'll be in. I know he gets backlogged at times so scheduling with him can require a wait. He's done good work for me, but be prepared for him to comment about how Leo lost his hearing by 1980 and didn't realize how unpleasantly shrill G&Ls sounded. It's the old argument you can find on the EBMM forum.

I hope that helps. If you need amp repairs or a custom pedal built I can give you some great referrals.

Ken