Factory Glossy Black Finish On Control Plate?

[MrRoundel]

I recently purchased a control plate from a member, JBo, through the Marketplace. When I received the part, I was surprised that it was not only a bit dented up, but it was also finished in a glossy black finish that looks like spray paint with a small amount of texture in it. I have never seen any G&L black parts finished in gloss black. I asked JBo for a refund, as there was nothing either in the picture or the description to indicate that it was non-factory. He is saying "no" to any refund, as his description was sufficiently accurate, etc., etc. He claims that G&L finished their control plates in this gloss black during the mid-nineties. My ASAT's are, and have been, from '86, '88, '90, '93, and '99, all with black hardware (except '99), but none of them have anything resembling this somewhat textured, but very glossy finish.

So, do any fellow owners of any year ASAT, have either a control plate or bridge that have a glossy finish that they believe to be as from the factory? All of mine are matte black, and or flat black crinkle. The matte black was a very brief run in the early years of the F-100, as far as I know. But, I have never seen any in gloss black.

JBo's words: "Black Leo-era control plates featured a crinkle finish (same as on all black 3-bolt neck plates). It is a whole different finishing process. In the early 90's, some ASAT's were built with leftover Leo-era parts but by the mid 90's BBE was making them this way with black paint instead of said crinkle finish.

True? Experts, and others owning mid-90's ASATs with black hardware, please weigh in. Perhaps I've just never seen, nor heard, of such a finish as textured glossy black from the factory? Thanks.

[zapcosongs]

Got a photo that might shed some light on this? - ed

[MrRoundel]

Here are a couple of pictures. They're taken under fluorescent light, with no flash. Thanks for your input.

[SJG]

Thats not G&L. Looks more like a heavy coat of Krylon over the original crinkle finish.

[replyman]

Dude, contact "Thumbs" and have him look at it. He may be able to strip and re-coat it. His work is the Bomb! As for the seller; this seems like a small amount of money to ruin a relationship over...

[Delus]

this seems like a small amount of money to ruin a relationship over...

Forgive me if i'm getting off topic but I'd like to say that it's not always about the money. If one is not satisfied with the deal they can always try and work things out decently, regardless of the money.

[jonc]

guess it could be but i've never personally seen one painted that way. most of the ones i've seen from the early BBE days are black crinkle and then chrome

[MrRoundel]

I bought a control plate from Tone-Guard (Thumbs/Wayne) that was NOS a few months back. It was exactly like I've seen every other black G&L hardware finish, flat-black crinkle. I don't think that Thumbs (Wayne R.) had anymore NOS control plates, otherwise I would have bought one from him. I just happened to see the Marketplace ad, and figured I'd get one from a member that was OEM, as a replacement for my ASAT III's that has extra holes that were drilled for mini-switches at some point. It didn't have to be perfect, just factory-finished. I could live with the minor waves in the metal, as seen from the side view. My natural ASAT III has the factory G&L finished aluminum pickguard on it, so the glossy one would look very bad next to it.
I told the seller that I'd drop the issue if the G&L members here could show me that the glossy was indeed a factory finish. So far, the consensus is that it did not come this way from the factory. I also stated that while I was rather helpless to force a re I just hoped that he'd do the right thing if it was informed, by those other than myself, that the finish was not factory. I can accept that it was an honest mistake, but I believe that a refund is not an unreasonable request, in light of the consensus. If nothing else, for reasons of goodwill. I guess time will tell.
So far, it's unanimous. Will the noteworthy long-time G&L experts let us all be wrong, without telling us so? I doubt it. So, experts, your silence should be deemed agreement, although a post would be nice. Just one stating a fact, not taking sides. Thanks for all of the member input so far.

MrR

[SJG]

this seems like a small amount of money to ruin a relationship over...

Forgive me if i'm getting off topic but I'd like to say that it's not always about the money. If one is not satisfied with the deal they can always try and work things out decently, regardless of the money.

I agree, it's not always about the money but it appears as though it's about being screwed this time. Doesn't matter if it's $10 or $1000. It's the principal. A refund was requested and refused and then the seller gave some bogus story about how G&L finished their control plates.
Nothing decent is going to happen here. And if you look at JBo's profile, every guitar he owns has been butchered.

[zapcosongs]

I agree with SJG 100%. I've dealt with a bunch of people here and nearly 200 on eBay. Nobody's ever been dis-satisfied, but if they were (whether reasonable or not), I'd do whatever it takes to make things right. This may sound corny, but I don't want to have people wish that they hadn't dealt with me. Ever. For any reason. - Ed

[replyman]

this seems like a small amount of money to ruin a relationship over...

Forgive me if i'm getting off topic but I'd like to say that it's not always about the money. If one is not satisfied with the deal they can always try and work things out decently, regardless of the money.

That was for the seller; he has been on here a while and this "misunderstanding" could be costly, friendship-wise. Jeez! "$10 or $1000...principle...", I agree.

[MrRoundel]

this seems like a small amount of money to ruin a relationship over...

Forgive me if i'm getting off topic but I'd like to say that it's not always about the money. If one is not satisfied with the deal they can always try and work things out decently, regardless of the money.

That was for the seller; he has been on here a while and this "misunderstanding" could be costly, friendship-wise. Jeez! "$10 or $1000...principle...", I agree.

Everything else that I've bought and sold in the Marketplace has been described for the benefit of the buyer, who cannot hold the item in their hand. I will reiterate that it could have been an honest mistake, but it was a mistake nonetheless. If I bought the item on Ebay, I would have asked a lot of qualifying questions. I did not believe it was necessary here. Live and learn.

Personal note: When I was a member of the Plymouth (A-Body) Barracuda owner's club , 15+ years ago, I sent a guy in New Jersey, his name was Rob Eddy (I'll always remember the name.) , $60 for a set of '68 driving lights. I never saw them. He never responded to phone calls, letters, etc. I have never been burned by strangers over Ebay in 13 years of buying and selling there. I've had a couple of issues, but sellers always saw the light in being reasonable, as I try to be the same when requesting a refund. I go out of my way not to exploit goodwill. The feedback system does help keep people honest. I remain hopeful, but will not chase $23 with $200 worth of aggravation. Whether or not this works out, I guess it will just amount to "feedback left for a seller". I'll get over it, but I won't forget it.

[Thumbs]

That is not a G&L finished control plate. I've never seen one like that. Brian, I do have another vintage control plate; actually I have one original in good shape and 4 other I've re-finished. I also have a few of the the shorter modern ones also refinished, but over chrome.

[MrRoundel]

Thanks Wayne, I appreciate your input/expertise. I'll got your your site and check out what you've got. However, depending on how this transaction ends, I may be sending this one to you for a refinish, or at least turning it over to you as a "core" for a replacement. Thanks again.

[MrRoundel]

Nothing decent is going to happen here. And if you look at JBo's profile, every guitar he owns has been butchered.

I'm still hoping that you're wrong about how this will end. However, truth be told, I fear that you are correct. I pretty much knew this as soon as I saw the plate as it slid out from its envelope. I couldn't really think of any reason that someone here would have sold this, simply described as a black control plate from a mid-nineties G&L, when it had been poorly modified. But, I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, as far as being mistaken about the factory finish, and simply asked for a refund. It should have been a slam dunk "Yes", especially when one considers the minimal cost of postage and Paypal. But alas....perhaps the $20 means a lot to him right now.

As far as his guitars, well, to each their own, as long as they don't try to sell them as "one-offs" sometime down the road.

[SJG]

Like my father always says
Caveat emptor

[Ken Baker]

Like my father always says
Caveat emptor

And your father would be right. Except that in places like this there is usually a certain community spirit and trust in play. Karma too.

Ken...

[Katefan]

Take a close look at the control plate AND the bridge & then compare to Leo-era ones that are actually 'crinkled' and not of a textured paint. Many folks haven't seen these b/c (BBE owned) G&L didnt make them this way for very long....

http://cgi.ebay.com/G-L-ASAT-1995-MINT- ... 2838wt_934

The give-away other than the more glossy finish is the lack of texture.


http://cgi.ebay.com/1987-G-L-ASAT-Leo-F ... _500wt_723


Cheers,

JBo

[yoeleven]

That's not a factory finish.

[Jim P]

Ha! Funny to see a pair of my guitars show up here:



But, upon comparing these two finishes, the control plate in the first photo doesn't appear to be even close to being as glossy as the one in the second photo. I'm in agreement with Thumbs and others here, and I'm quite certain Thumbs has seen his fair share of G&L control plates over the years.

[Anglewood]

Yeah, there is no way that is a factory finish. Even the E-Bay pics clearly show the standard black crinkle. I hope this all gets worked out.

Lates,

Connor

[zapcosongs]

Jim: I'm always pleasured to see those twin beauties of yours. One day, I hope to hear you rock them!

Yo, JBlo: Time to man-up, dude! Seriously.... - ed

[Jim P]

Jim: I'm always pleasured to see those twin beauties of yours. One day, I hope to hear you rock them!

Thanks, Ed! Since they're essentially collector pieces, I'm sorry to say that I don't play them very often, much to the chagrin of some folks. Although, the blonde '86 has been a player for sure! Regardless, we'll make it out your way some day in the near future!

Yo, JBlo: Time to man-up, dude! Seriously.... - ed

Glad you said it!..........someone had to! I mean, seriously, "what the heck?" (pun intended)

[Katefan]

Thought I'd post some pics and a reply of sorts....

Here is the pic of the control plate and the bridge that I Iisted in my ad in the Marketplace.



Both parts are painted with some sort of black paint which exhibits a faint texture and of which I believe to be stock. They do not have a powder coated "crinkle' finish - as evident by the paint coming off the bridge in some places.
Powder coated "crinkle" hardware which entails a more elaborate finishing process has a much rougher(deeper) texture and generally looks different when photographed - especially at an angle. It tends to have a more silver or charcoal appearance than straight black.
This is due to how light reflects off all the little depressions in the rough texture.


Click here to see an example of this...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1987-G-L-ASAT-Leo-F ... _500wt_723


In the photo below which is taken straight on, it is harder to see the rough texture however, a lighter area on the top of the bridge plate can be see - this is from dust building up in the depressions.




Now back to the parts listed in my ad...

Here are a few pics of the '96 ASAT Special body that the parts came off of in the configuration it was in when I purchased it. Btw, the body date is stamped DEC 12 1996.








Here are a few pics of the same '96 ASAT Special body after I completed the guitar by attaching a neck and putting it back to a stock configuration - all which entailed replacing the newer poorly fitting after-market p/g with a period correct black plastic 3-ply one, replacing the cut shortened bridge saddles (which was done to accommodate a non G&L neck) and swapping out the switch tips.








Notice in both sets of pics that the control plate and bridge look quite similar to the earlier (Leo-era) ones that feature a powder coated "crinkle" finish.
Notice too that the control plate appears to have a rather "flat" finish compared to MrRoundel's pics which accentuates its "glossy" characteristic. I did nothing to the control plate other than take it off the ASAT body prior to putting it up to sale.


Now compare these pics with those of the 1995 ASAT Special that is currently on Ebay.
Here's the link again -

http://cgi.ebay.com/G-L-ASAT-1995-MINT- ... 2838wt_934


I contend as I did in my prior posting that this guitar shares the same parts which are coated with the same (stock) faintly textured black paint. I've seen one other ASAT Special which featured this same type of finish on the hardware (along with a 3-ply black plastic p/g) in a Seattle music shop a number of years ago - it was also a 1995 model.

As I've stated a lot of folks are not aware that these exist because it appears this appointment was short-lived and seems to be only featured on ASATs for a couple of years.

My opinion is that BBE was trying to achieve the classic earlier look of G&L "crinkle" finished hardware without having to go through the more lengthy and expensive process of powder coating the hardware. It is no secret that they were implementing many changes in the mid 90's many of which were in the interest of cutting costs and stream-lining procedures - most likely to stay viable as a US company competing with ever increasing overseas manufacturing.

Most if not all of the Leo-era stockpiled parts got used up in the first few years of BBE's ownership of G&L on early 90's "transition" ASATs which feature both new and old parts/appointments and which many folks are familiar with.
From what I've seen, after 1995 the only piece of hardware on a BBE made G&L guitar that featured a powder coated "crinkle" finish was the 3-bolt neckplate - and that appointment was done away with advent of the new 4-bolt plates circa 1998 which were chrome-plated.

To those that think the control plate I sold MrRoundel is not a stock G&L part or that it was painted over I have this to say:
Older G&L control plates are longer in length... if one were to put a newer or current issue control plate (or an after-market one for that matter) on an older G&L body, it would be too short - the bottom screw hole would line up over the control route(empty space) instead of over the body(wood).
This indicates to me that the control plate in question was made by BBE.

If the control plate was painted over with Krylon spray paint as one person has suggested - in my opinion, it wouldn't look this way - unless it had numerous layers of paint. If that were the case, it would simply be a matter of stripping it to uncover the "crinkle" finish.
But it is not, as bare metal can be seen on the 3-position switch mounting holes(see MrRoundel's close up pics). Anyone who is familiar with powder coated finish parts knows that this finish doesn't wear off.
Conversely, painting a chrome-plated control plate would render a smooth finish and lack the faint texture which can again be seen in MrRoundel's close-up pics.
Remember - the bridge which came off the same mid 90's ASAT Special body also features this same faintly textured paint.

Lastly, I related to MrRoundel that I would have stated "crinkle" finish in my ad if that was in fact what I had and that I also would have asked 3X the $.
I stated that I felt I was clear in my description and therefore did not wish to offer a refund.

I am a straight up and honest person and do not have the intention of lying or deceiving anyone. I say what I mean and I do my best to honour my word.
Anyone who has dealt with me in my nearly 30 years of buying & selling knows of my integrity. I priced the control plate at what I thought it was worth, described it properly and included a photo.

Truth be told, I was rather put off by MrRoundel's presumptuous manner and that he was seeking a refund for a $20 part which he asked nothing about other than if it was still available. I was also not fond of how he was going about things so having said my piece, I chose not to engage further in correspondence with him.

I believe potential buyers have the responsibility of asking questions prior to making a purchase - especially if they are seeking a specific item.

'Nuff said.

Cheers,

JBo

[Jim P]

JBo,

While I don't particularly care to be stepping in between the argument of others, I do feel compelled to share a couple of thoughts.

First, I honestly don't believe that anyone here is disputing the notion that the control plate isn't a G&L product, and from what I can gather from all the folks that have replied, I think I can safely say that most of us here are in agreement that the plate has been refinished to some degree. From what I can tell in the photo, it really does appear to be a black crinkle G&L plate that has been painted over with a glossy black finish. The existing crinkle texture below the top coat appears quite evident, too.

Secondly, I don't know what transpired between you and Mr. Roundel, but if it were me that had sold a product that a buyer wasn't happy with, I'd be more than willing to refund his or her money. Also, from the photos you've provided, it's nearly impossible to see how glossy the finish is, and if I were the buyer, I'd automatically make the assumption that it was a standard G&L control plate. In other words, I would see no need or reason to ask questions.

The thing that interests me about this is the fact that you're addressing a rather knowledgeable crowd when it comes to having experience with G&L guitars, and I find it even more interesting that not even one person has defended your case. While I'm no historian of G&L instruments, there are many players and collectors here who are - or at least were here once upon a time - and I'm finding it impossible to buy into your argument based upon what you've presented. Even more astonishing is the fact that a couple of replies in this thread have come from guys who are indeed historians and actually do this kind of work professionaly. While Mr. Roundel's photos may accentuate the glossy character of the control plate, I have yet to see a valid example from you where both the bridge and control plate appear to be finished with the glossy black finish that's also textured under the top coat.

Anyone who is familiar with powder coated finish parts knows that this finish doesn't wear off.

I'm not really quite sure where this statement comes from, but nearly any finish will wear in time. Case in point, please view the control plate on my '86 ASAT:



Not only is the finish worn, it actually peels off as well. It has become brittle and will crack apart with any kind of pressure applied to it. I have little doubt that a '96 plate could behave in much of the same manner over time, especially when we throw in factors such as heat, cold, and humidity into the mix.

Anyway, that's my 2 pennies.

Jim

[thecajunboy]

That plate is a factory crinkle finish that has been sprayed over with either black paint or a clearcoat. Dead giveaway is the way that the crinkle is just a wee bit larger than normal. That's what happens when you add a few mils of material over it. Anybody's guess as to who did it, but I'd bet money the factory didn't do it. They had no reason too.

Here's a former guitar of mine, produced by G&L for NAMM in 2002, with black hardware that was still leftover at the factory. There was still yet another run of black hardware guitars later on in the decade.

[replyman]

Nice; all black. Headstock too?

[thecajunboy]

Nice; all black. Headstock too?

Yep, all black. I'm gonna have to hunt down a few pics and post.

[zapcosongs]

Ebony board? - ed

[Thumbs]

We haven't had a dust up here in quite some time. I wasn't going to comment further, but JBo's post made me think I should clarify some of the points made by myself and others posting here.

1) JBo is correct in saying the G&L early model control plates are longer than the current modern ones.

2) The only time I've seen anything other than the flat black crinkle finish is on G-200's. They have a semi-gloss smooth paint finish on the bridge and the control plate (rear or front loaded). But not similar in any way to the control plate in question.

3) I can't believe this is still going on for a $20 dollar part. I think that was the range of the cost. I could be mistaken.

4) The finish used back in the day was a paint product that was baked on; not a powder coat. Yes, it can flake off if it was not prepped right or some other wear factors. Climate could affect the paint and cause flaking as shown in another member's post. Powder coating generally is more durable; due to the process itself. Electro-statically applied and then baked on at 400 degrees.

5) While I'm not here to slam anyone, I'd agree with others here a refund should have been made in the interest of good relations and trust. I believe JBo made an honest mistake. I still do not believe that the photo with the bridge and control plate depicts a G&L finished part(s). I'll shut up now.

Good Luck Boyz! I hope this story has a happy ending. Both of you are long time members. Peace!

[Spot]

Now I know yall are experts here and pride yourselves on knowing every detail about every part of every G&L but yall are mistaken about the only finishes being the black crinkle and semi-gloss on the G-200’s control plates and cavity covers. My black ’85 Superhawk has the ventilated flat black control cavity cover which is undisputable proof that not all G&Ls have that flat crinkle finish.

[replyman]

The Devil's Food sticker says it all: This is indeed an Official G&L component.

[Spot]

All this talk about crinkle finishes has me thinking about potato chips! I usually eat Lays regular chips but every once in a while I get a hankering for Ruffles with ridges or Tim’s Cascade Crinkle cut chips.



Tim’s is a local potato chip company – they don’t bleach their chips and they cut them thicker so they hold twice as much grease and taste delicious.



A few years ago I was eating a grill cheese sandwich at this place in Georgetown called Stellars. Stellars has great sandwiches and some killer home-made pizza. The only thing I don’t like about Stellar’s is they don’t have any domestic beer so you have to drink artsy-farsty micro brews. Anyway, I digress. The chips they served with the grill cheese were crinkled and I was thinking to myself “Why do they make crinkle chips?" They tasted the same, weight the same, crunch the same. From a processing standpoint it’s just that much more machinery to produce a product different from the regular chips considering it tastes the same. Then a while later I was at an afterhours party and they had all kinds of food laid out. I watched this chick scoop a crinkle chip into some dip and it all came perfectly clear to me. Crinkle chips are corrugated so they are stronger and can handle the scooping and weight of the dip on the chip without crumbling. It’s positively brilliant. A serious testimony the modern day food engineering. I immediately told everyone I know that I finally solved the mystery but nobody seemed as jazzed on it as I did. Now I only buy crinkled/ridged potato chips because even if I’m not dipping them I want the strongest chips possible in every situation.



If I’m on a plane and they give me chips with my meal I always ask if they have any crinkle chips. Crinkle chips are definitely the way to go. I love potato chips so much I even toured the Utz factory in Pennsylvania last time I was out there. They even make crinkle Pringles now! Anyway, just thought I’d throw in my .02 on the whole crinkle thing.

Shutting up.

[sirmyghin]

Now I know yall are experts here and pride yourselves on knowing every detail about every part of every G&L but yall are mistaken about the only finishes being the black crinkle and semi-gloss on the G-200’s control plates and cavity covers. My black ’85 Superhawk has the ventilated flat black control cavity cover which is undisputable proof that not all G&Ls have that flat crinkle finish.

WTH? gas powered active electronics?

[Craig]

Okay, I think it's time to put this one to bed