Buzzing bridge on ASAT CLassic S Alnico

[egriffith]

Hello, I'm new here and stumbled across this site looking for solutions to a buzzing problem with my ASAT Classic S Alnico Launch Edition. I love almost everything about it, but it's my first US made guitar, and I'm disappointed that there is a buzzing sound on certain strings and certain frets when played unplugged (can be heard through headphones too). I've had it professionally set up and took it back a second time complaining that the buzz was still there. After they worked on it a second time I was told "that's as good as it's going to get".

So I brought it home and picked individual notes up and down the fretboard, and problem starts around the 4th or 5th fret on most strings, most noticeable on low E and A strings. There is also some buzz or slight rattling on open strings if they are picked fairly hard. While placing my ear very close to the string, and moving my ear up and down the neck, then to the bridge, the buzzing is definitely in the bridge, but I can't find any loose screws. This also my first guitar with a T-style bridge, so I don't know if a certain amount of buzzing or "sitar effect" is acceptable or considered normal. You probably wouldn't notice it through a cranked, distorted amp with effects, but I can hear it while playing cleans. I saw the 2012 thread on this subject, but you're not supposed to resurrect old threads, right?

I really like this guitar and don't want to just sell it. Are there bridge parts or replacements that might solve this problem? I thought a US made model shouldn't have issues like this. My Korean PRS and Gretch guitars don't rattle or buzz (totally different designs anyway), but I have to admit their necks are not as nice as the ASAT's.

I appreciate any advice you can offer.

[Elwood]

I doubt "it's as good as it can get", though you'll have to find a tech who is willing to make it great.
Did you pay for the fret level (preferably under tension) and crown, or just a quick set-up.
Have you played with bridge adjustments yourself (just do a little at a time)?

If you bought it used, you'll have to deal with all the decisions the previous owners made.
No big deal usually, but specs would have changed from the (plekked?) factory set-up.

Got any pics?

[egriffith]

Hi Elwood,

Honestly, I'm not an expert, but the neck and frets are fantastic. The action is high enough to avoid strings buzzing on frets, and since I started on an acoustic guitar, I'm fine without a super low action. When I put my ear near the string while playing unplugged, it's easy to hear that the buzz is in the bridge. I have a lot of odd allen wrenches, but not the tiny one for the saddle height adjustment screws. When I push on the saddles with my finger I can't budget them. They are very tight against each other.

Do US made G&Ls typically need fret leveling and crowning? That would suggest they didn't do a great job at the factory. Then why are we paying nearly $2,000, instead of $500 for one made in Surabaya, Indonesia? Actually, I did have a Tribute Legacy for a week. Pickup switch quit working, I had it replaced, but problem persisted, so I returned it. Then I got this US made ASAT. I love the Strat jangle, but love the ASAT Classic with Alnico pickups too.

I will take photos when I can. Fortunately I know more about photography than guitar mechanics. When the tech at the guitar store opened the case his eyebrows shot up. A few seconds later there were 3 other guys who worked there standing around admiring it. Don't know where they came from!

[Elwood]

It sounded like a neck/fret thing since you said it wasn't there at the first several frets.
High action doesn't guarantee clear notes everywhere, often it's high to cover problems.
A new G&L should play like butter, a used one might not. If someone worked on the frets
when the necks not under tension...the geometry will be changed. Different string gauges and brands
will bring problems in and out of play also.

So if I'm wrong about the frets...it sounds like you might be able to fix it by maybe massaging the saddles with fine sandpaper or finding the part that's vibrating. Often it's somewhere you wouldn't expect (tuner screws,warped bridge plate,
plastic on guard etc.). Eventually you'll touch the part while playing (capo at the fifth to make it buzz if you have to)
and the buzz will stop. It could be one of the saddles is just a touch off kilter.
I'd order half a dozen of those little hex wrenches (they are cheap and tend to disappear).

good luck

[john o]

try switching the bridge saddles. also make sure they are level, not tilted.

[yowhatsshakin]

From your description it sound like a rattle to me instead of a buzz. Make sure the bridge is firmly connected to the body and, as suggested above, that all the saddles are straight. This means that all the height screws should be firmly "planted" on the bridge plate. Otherwise, the saddle(s) will wobble and create a rattle. depending on resonance frequency, this may be more prevalent when you play certain notes on the fretboard, irrespective of the string being played.

Also shake the guitar just to check there are no loose pieces in a cavity or something.

Hope this helps,

- Jos

[egriffith]

Thanks, for the tips guys! First, I took some photos. I am not sure how to attach them or show them in the post, but here is a link to a public web album.

https://goo.gl/photos/YwxGsSNfvFNSTesi9

I did shake the guitar. No rattles. You're probably right, it's technically a "rattle", but it makes a buzzing sound, almost like the "sitar effect" I've heard before, but this is more subtle. Yes, it does seem to respond to the resonance of certain notes. It does not show up if the strings are picked softly, only when strumming or picking a single note more aggressively. But I was playing through a POD HD500X last night and didn't notice any rattle or buzzing sounds (amplified sound was too loud!). I am beginning to wonder if I'm being too picky.

The bridge saddles are VERY tight and firm. I just now realized that the height adjustment screws don't screw into the bridge plate, but rather push against them to raise the bridge saddles. When tapping, probing, and nudging with my fingers, I cannot budge them at all. There is no flex, no looseness whatsoever. The saddles are positioned for intonation, but they look very level to me. You should be able to tell by looking at the photos.

Sand the saddles? Would I sand inside the groove the strings pass through/over? Is the idea to create a more solid connection between the string and the saddle? For instance, if the thicker wound strings don't settle completely into the groove, they could rattle on the saddle when picked aggressively?

I also tried putting on the capo on the 7th or 8th fret where the symptoms are the worst. Great idea, by the way. No screw or pick guard rattle. I put my finger between the D and G strings to press the middle of the bridge plate down quite hard. No change.

Here's a question: If the string is touching the side of the height adjustment screw right where it bends over the saddle, could that cause a problem? Never mind, the G and B strings don't touch the screw and they still rattle. For what it's worth, the strings bend around the intonation screw springs before going over the saddle. This causes the E and A strings to touch the height screws. But pressing the string against the spring doesn't stop the rattle.

Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll order some allen wrenches, but I'm not brave enough to flip the saddles upside down or replace them, because that would throw the intonation and action all out of whack and I don't know enough to get it back where it should be. Might have to find a more competent luthier to have a look.

[Elwood]

Nice pics, and nice Classic !

I think I found the url for bridge pic (it wasn't easy).





If anything is vibrating I'm thinking the intonation screw springs are suspect.
If so maybe a bit of tiny plastic tubing at the string end would stop it.

Another random thought is that an intonation screw has come a bit loose, it can happen and the saddle is
still in place.This would be most likely on the D and high e string where the spring isn't compressed.
Your right about sanding the saddles (only from the rear side with the lightest touch),to clear burrs or to fix wear and tear. I'm guessing that's not the source of your extra sound.

How about using a small piece of foam or pencil eraser to hunt for little places that might dampen the
sitar effect?

That's all I got for now

[egriffith]

Thank you, Elwood, for the suggestions and linking to the photo!

I've been working so much the last couple days between two jobs, I haven't been able to get near my home computer or my guitars. I appreciate your suggestions. I will get a pencil with eraser to try pushing on bridge parts while plucking with a capo in place. Good ideas.

Been afraid to mess with the intonation screws because I don't even know enough to re-intonate if I mess that up (embarrassed to say so), and it was supposedly just set up. Better watch some YouTube videos and bone up on that! When I pushed on the intonation screw springs with my finger while playing nothing changed (rattle was the same). I do wonder if the screw itself could be rattling inside the saddle, because of a loose threading. But I should hear something change when I push down on the screw and spring with my finger while plucking, right?

If you compare guitar players to computer users, I'm a Mac guy rather than Windows. I'm willing to pay extra for something that just works. I don't want to tweak it or adjust it or mod it to death. I just want to use it for its intended purpose without issues or hassles.

But I may have to learn some basic adjustment technique, especially since when I take issues to my guitar tech, I end up having to sort them out myself! I admit this one is elusive. Last rattle I had on a PRS SE, the tech put glue into the string slot in the nut in an attempt to raise the string height. Slot was cut too deep, he said. Messy glue on the nut. Then I find out online others had the same issue and just need to put locking washers under the bridge to stop it flexing. It played like a new guitar! But evidently this problem I have with the ASAT isn't common.

Thanks again, and I'll report back when I have a chance to do more prodding and testing. So far nothing I push on or squeeze changes the rattle. What a mystery!

[NickHorne]

Three things stand out to me:

(1): That the problem in question begins in the region of the 4th or 5th frets, and can also be persuaded to happen with open strings;
(2): That it occurs with most or all strings;
(3): That your tech sees fit to fill a low nut slot with glue. Do not entrust serious work to this person.

(1) & (2) tell me that it's possible that your truss rod may be overtightened, by as little as 1/8th of a turn. The 4th / 5th fret region is very typically the beginning location of problems thus caused, and what you report about open strings fits too. If you are a mechanical beginner with guitars, please be sure to entrust such adjustments to a good pro in this first instance, and don't try to DIY it!

A previous owner, using slightly heavier strings, may have made a truss adjustment, or else it may just have always been that way. The difference between great and not-quite-right can vary by tiny amounts from one player to another.
The fact that it happens on several strings does suggest that no one bridge saddle is at fault, and it's unbelievably unlikely that all of them problematic.

I hear almost ALL of my guitars' unamplified output as coming "from the bridge end" of their strings. That's where the majority of the strings' vibrating energy gets turned into air movement for my ears to hear. But that doesn't automatically mean that any problems are coming from the bridge itself.

To see if a simple truss adjustment is all that's needed, PLEASE take the guitar to a tech who can be trusted.
NOT the person who does (3).

If he / she shows you how to do it yourself later on, and you are sure you understand him / her, then fine; in the first instance, get a real pro's advice. Truss adjustment is basically simple, but can have hidden hazards. Find a good teacher, and then you can safely fine-tune your guitars for evermore.

If you do take the trouble to acquire the little allen key for the bridge saddle height adjustment, try very gently turning each one a little to see whether it's in contact with the baseplate of the bridge (feels slightly firm to turn) or not (turns completely freely). It is possible, in any Fender-style bridge where the saddles touch each other, for them to hold one another up like drunks at a football match, when in fact one or more is just standing on one leg if a height-adjustment screw is not making contact. If so, just turn it gently snug; no need to go altering the saddle height if it's already ok. But this is more a saddle-lock type scenario (especially when people arch the saddles instead of keeping them stepped-but-individually-flat) than it is with your Classic tele-type. And my hunch is that your issue is not this. Worth remembering for years to come, though.

Don't be discouraged! I really don't think that you have any hard-to-solve problem here.
Do let us know how you get on.

[KenC]

Unless I've completely missed part of the conversation, it sounds like neck relief hasn't been checked yet. It's a simple matter of putting a capo at the first fret, pressing the low E string at the last fret, and seeing how much clearance there is between the string and the 8th fret. The factory specs back in the 1980s for this clearance ("relief") to be between .012" and .015". IIRC, that spec hasn't changed over the years. This can give you a quick indication of whether the truss rod is way out of proper adjustment.

I second Nick's comment about a previous owner having set the guitar up for heavier strings. I've run across this a couple of times buying basses, where a previous owner had installed light gauge strings (probably for slapping) without loosening the truss rod. The results ranged from slight buzzing that started partway up the neck, to strings fretting out along the entire fretboard. That total fret-out was on a mahogany '81 L-2000E, which a Guitar Center "tech" had condemned as completely beyond saving. I put standard gauge strings on it, and it played perfectly as soon as I tuned it to pitch. Four plus years later, I still haven't needed to touch the setup.

Before you go to great lengths, you might want to consider going up a gauge on the strings and see if that resolves the problem. If it does, you could either (a) stick with the heavier strings, or (b) get a competent tech to set the guitar up for your preferred string gauge. If that works, it's cheaper than bench time for troubleshooting.

Ken

[Asat1]

i know it is a old topic but i am curious if it got fixed?
Dan Erlewine made a book about guitar maintenance and repair and is good reading material for electric and acoustic players.
he somewhere mentions not fretbuz but string rattle.
i belief the TS was a former acoustic player, now using a guitar with low string hight.
i could be that his attack of the strings is to firm for the low action.
it could be that one of the frets is not locked in the fretboard and can move up and down.
if the leveled the frets but not fixed a loos fret you ceep having trouble.
also check if the pickups are seated with tubing not with springs