Brand New ASAT Classic "S" INSANE buzz

[jk1]

Hi folks. Thanks in advance for your help. I just opened the box of my second ASAT Classic S and am very disappointed. I sent one back (internet purchase from Musicians Friend) last week because it had so much buzz that it was louder than the signal. I am devastated that the replacement has the exact issue.

I assume that this is a problem in my home (basement) studio. I have tried plugging my amps into different circuits all around the house looking for a noise source. I walked around with an AM radio looking for noise sources. I found lots of them and turned all of them off. No change/ I have tried three different amps, some solid state, some tube, most fairly new.

Most significantly, I own a Start and a Tele and while the noise is slightly noticeable with them, it is truly an order of magnitude worse with the G&L's. I am seriously bummed as I have been looking forward to owning one of these for a few years now and finally saved up the money to buy one. I even drove past the factory in Fullerton and peaked in the doors.

Can anyone guide me? I know there is a difference between RFI, EMI and electrical line noise. I know I can, and do plan to shield the guitar with copper adhesive tape. I just can't believe that these wonderful machines are so much noisier from the factory than the Fenders? I have the Alnico pickups.

The noise goes almost completely away when I touch the metal around the output jack.

Thanks for your advice!

[Craig]

Hi folks. Thanks in advance for your help. I just opened the box of my second ASAT Classic S and am very disappointed. I sent one back (internet purchase from Musicians Friend) last week because it had so much buzz that it was louder than the signal. I am devastated that the replacement has the exact issue.

I assume that this is a problem in my home (basement) studio. I have tried plugging my amps into different circuits all around the house looking for a noise source. I walked around with an AM radio looking for noise sources. I found lots of them and turned all of them off. No change/ I have tried three different amps, some solid state, some tube, most fairly new.

Most significantly, I own a Start and a Tele and while the noise is slightly noticeable with them, it is truly an order of magnitude worse with the G&L's. I am seriously bummed as I have been looking forward to owning one of these for a few years now and finally saved up the money to buy one. I even drove past the factory in Fullerton and peaked in the doors.

Can anyone guide me? I know there is a difference between RFI, EMI and electrical line noise. I know I can, and do plan to shield the guitar with copper adhesive tape. I just can't believe that these wonderful machines are so much noisier from the factory than the Fenders? I have the Alnico pickups.

The noise goes almost completely away when I touch the metal around the output jack.

Thanks for your advice!

I suggest you contact Ben Rush (G&L Repairs/Tech Support). His contact information is on the G&L Support page: http://www.glguitars.com/support/index2.asp.

Please follow up with your resolution.

Hope this helps.

[jk1]

Thank you for the advice Craig. I emailed Ben Rush at G&L and he called me back within about 10 minutes. He couldn't have been nicer and was very helpful. He asked a few questions to rule things out, and then based on those answers and the info in my post, he said that it is almost certainly the lack of shielding that is causing the problem. I apparently have a very "noisy" basement and am one of the unfortunate customers that require shielding that is not installed by the factory. Ben walked me through how to install it and said he was very sure that this would make a substantial difference.

I couldn't be happier with G&L's response to a customer problem and Ben was very friendly to boot. What I am not happy about is that G&L decided not to include shielding in a single coil pickup guitar which seems counterintuitive to me. While I know that many people won't have a need for shielding if they are in electrically quiet environments, I have seen a number of posts from people of multiple forums that are having more noise than they should. If you are going to make the higher end US made "classic" model, then certainly you should include some basic shielding at this level to help address this issue? My ASAT arrived at 2pm today by UPS. I am already having to contemplate taking it apart and modifying it with shielding, which while I know is not a huge deal, but is something I think I wouldn't expect to have to do to make a brand new US made guitar playable. It is that bad. And while I may represent only a small portion of customers that have a noisy environment electrically, I just don't see it as good business practice to put out the high end models with this potential issue in less than perfect environments.

I would have been very pleased if Ben offered to pay a guitar tech to perform this mod, but he said since it wasn't a warranty issue (as they are designed this way), that I was basically on my own to perform the work. Again, not like it is the biggest job in the world, but in principle it isn't good business. Additionally, if I mod this instrument, will it void the 2 year warranty? I unfortunately didn't think to ask Ben that while we were on the phone.

Ben was very helpful and very nice. I am impressed with their service and the guitar for the most part. I just have a little sour taste after plunking down a bunch of money and then being told I have to "fix" it myself right out of the box. Is this how Leo would have wanted it?

[meursault]

I really don't know how G&L could be responsible if you have a bad electrical installation... are you serious ?

If someone live in a really wet environment, got a G&L and the metal parts get rusty... is this the responsibility of the manufacturer to put inox bridge and a water proof finish ?... common'...

I have a bad electrical installation as well, 3 US made G&L but I never thought G&L should change the design of their instruments to fit my f***ed up conditions...

[jk1]

Maybe that is how most post appeared, but I was actually trying to accept some responsibility for my situation as they can't make a guitar for everyone's specific issue. My point is really intended to be that I can't believe that they don't shield a single coil guitar. I have two Fenders and they make very little noise in my crappy basement, and they are both less expensive than my G&L. I have many other brands as well and none of the rest make any noise. I also don't want to share a confidential conversation, but some people employed at a certain plant in Fullerton agree that these instruments should come out the door with shielding, and that they may be rectifying that situation in the near future as there have been enough problems to warrant a fix. I am simply trying to express my opinion that this is a situation that I believe the company should address as they make too nice an instrument to cut corners on something simple like shielding on a single cool guitar. I love the instrument and am impressed with G&Ls responsiveness. I just feel it shouldn't have been necessary in the first place. My basement apparently sucks (even though it doesn't for any of my other instruments including single cool Fenders) and I accept responsibility for that. That is why I will shield the guitar myself as suggested instead of returning it. I just don't think G&L can suggest that they are the next level of evolution from Fender when they are clearly not more advanced in the RFI / EMI area which is a long time well known issue for single coil guitars. They are well ahead in many other areas, it is just disappointing.

[jk1]

Single coil not "single cool"

[SouthpawGuy]

Is there a dimmer circuit and / or fluorescent lighting in your basement ? Both can add to single coil hum.

[jk1]

You are absolutely correct about dimmers and CFLs. I walked around my entire house with an AM radio tuned to noise and it was crazy how much interference I found. Turned off all the lights, unplugged computers, turned off air conditioners. Anything with a motor or electrical switch was turned off including refrigerators and even the internet router. I found tons of noise makers and turned them all off. No affect on the guitar unfortunately. If any of you have X10 dimmers in your home I can tell you that they are a serious source of electrical noise. I am learning a lot from this which hunt for the prime offender.

Thanks for your reply.

[Aussie]

I really don't know how (a guitar manufacturer) could be responsible if you have a bad electrical installation

An interesting question which became the focus of a discussion with three members of our legal team (two of whom are players) over lunch today.

Not wanting to inflame but simply to address the question raised (ie how could a manufacturer be responsible) – here’s how the lawyers thought it could happen …

• • Under Australian consumer legislation any products offered for sale are required to be “fit for purpose”
  • Given that it is known that single coil pickups are susceptible to disruption from electrical interference, it could be argued that a guitar would not be fit for purpose if the manufacturer has not taken reasonable precautions to prevent the interference
  • In considering the question a Court would first consider whether there is a reasonable expectation that the interference could be encountered in the normal use of the product (this would include home use, bars, etc), especially where the cause of the interference is beyond the control of the owner of the product. The view of the lawyers was that this would not be difficult to prove to the satisfaction of a Court.
  • Consideration would then be given to whether the manufacturer had taken reasonable steps to mitigate the potential problem. In considering this issue the Court would consider (a) whether practical and reasonably affordable solutions were available and (b) the extent to which these solutions were implemented by other manufacturer’s (ie what is reasonable industry practice).
  • The lawyers concluded that unless a manufacturer had explicitly advised a potential buyer that the product might not function as intended in certain circumstances, it was highly likely that absence of shielding on a single coil guitar could be sufficient for the Court to conclude that the product did not meet the test of being “fit for purpose”.
  • The lawyers also concluded that it is highly unlikely that this would ever be tested as it would be far cheaper and much much faster to just do the shielding yourself.

The noise goes almost completely away when I touch the metal around the output jack.

Have you checked the grounding?

Cheers, Robbie :-)

[meursault]

All this argumentation is based on the interpretation of the words "fit for purpose"... which leave "air" for extrapolation (projections ?)... don't you think ?

And I agree completely on the last point !

[GeorgeB]

>> I really don't know how G&L could be responsible if you have a bad electrical installation... are you serious ?

They are. G&L sadly does close to NO electrial shielding in their US instruments to this day (Tributes are actually better in this regard).

With today's levels of "electro smog" a 100% shield job is mandatory, and then you will have a dead silent guitar -- except for any SC magnetic hum which tends to be very moderate in effect when the rest is done well.

[andy_tchp]

The noise goes almost completely away when I touch the metal around the output jack.

Have you checked the grounding?

Good question; does the noise also disappear when you are touching the strings? If so, it's working as designed. If not, there is likely a problem in the bridge/string grounding.

[GeorgeB]

A well shielded guitar doesn't even need grounded bridge/strings, actually this is the reality check for a shield job.
Needs carefully designed pups, though (unless housed in metal cans), and that is another point where some G&L designs are only on an OK level, not world class.

[jk1]

Thanks to everyone who replied. I wanted to update you and let you know that I completed my shield installation and the difference is astounding. I am a total amateur when it comes to soldering so anyone who knows what they're doing would have an even easier time of this, but not a better result. My guitar is totally silent now. It sounds amazing and is everything I hoped it would be and more. I am so very happy with this guitar in every way, I can't thank everyone enough for helping me out. I still wish they came from the factory like this, but the proof is in the pudding. With a shield, it is amazing !

Thanks again.

[Dpsuper fly]

Thanks to everyone who replied. I wanted to update you and let you know that I completed my shield installation and the difference is astounding. I am a total amateur when it comes to soldering so anyone who knows what they're doing would have an even easier time of this, but not a better result. My guitar is totally silent now. It sounds amazing and is everything I hoped it would be and more. I am so very happy with this guitar in every way, I can't thank everyone enough for helping me out. I still wish they came from the factory like this, but the proof is in the pudding. With a shield, it is amazing !

Thanks again.

Hello jk1, What excatly did you do when you shielded your guitar? Was it the pickguard or all the cativites? What type of shielding did you use? Copper or shielding paint?

Thanks!

[jk1]

I used adhesive backed 2" copper tape to shield all the cavities as well as the pick guard. I soldered some additional ground wires to connect all the shields together and then to the ground on the back of the volume pot and to the ground on the jack. I checked continuity and every bit of shielding is electrically connected together and to ground. I also connected a ground to the bridge / rear pickup metal plate. This is the best Faraday cage I could build with limited skills. It worked really well, and my hope is that it will outlast a shielding paint type of solution as I have heard that the paint loses its effectiveness over time. I can't verify that, but I had read it in more than one place so I went with the tape instead. I hope that helps? It is my favorite guitar and dead quiet now.

[meursault]

Missed the last words of that story ! Glad you fixed it and now enjoy your new tool !

[Dpsuper fly]

I used adhesive backed 2" copper tape to shield all the cavities as well as the pick guard. I soldered some additional ground wires to connect all the shields together and then to the ground on the back of the volume pot and to the ground on the jack. I checked continuity and every bit of shielding is electrically connected together and to ground. I also connected a ground to the bridge / rear pickup metal plate. This is the best Faraday cage I could build with limited skills. It worked really well, and my hope is that it will outlast a shielding paint type of solution as I have heard that the paint loses its effectiveness over time. I can't verify that, but I had read it in more than one place so I went with the tape instead. I hope that helps? It is my favorite guitar and dead quiet now.

Thanks Jk1! Very clear. It sounds like you did a great job. I have a brand new USA ASAT Special. I love it. It does buzz on med to high gain; however, if I touch the bridge, strings, or control knobs, the buzz is 95% reduced. If I let go, the buzz returns.

I am researching and it seems what you did to your guitar will help eliminate the buzz for mine. However, I am not 100% sure. There are a lot of opinions out there.

[DanDoulogos]

I've read this thread with increasing interest, as I have a couple of guitars that are quite noisy, and have planned to do the shielding work on as soon as my order for the shielding ships (why did I order from China?? ... oh yeah, free shipping...).

That would have been a great little "project" for the projects subforum. Did you take any pics? When I do mine, I plan to do a before/after video (to note the difference in sound), along with a bunch of photos of the shielding process. I plan to do both my recent Legacy purchase, and the "main" offender, my (Fender Select) Telecaster - which really is crazy-noisy.

Good to hear that this solution not only worked for you, but worked very well for you.