Wiring 3 ASAT Special Pickups

[jackstraw]

Hi all - Long time lurker, first time poster. I'm working on specifying a custom build with 3 ASAT Special pickups. I've searched online a good bit and found that this has been done on special build models like the Trinity, S-3, and Special 3. But, I've found mixed info about the pickups used in these LE models and I haven't found a wiring diagram yet.

I've looked through the "list of pickups" thread Craig posted. It's helpful, but doesn't completely resolve my questions. The list craig posted suggests that the Trinity had different Neck and Middle PUs (middle listed as RWRP but the neck isn't). The G&L online store recommends the ASAT Special neck PU for S-3 neck and middle positions. And, there is no "middle" PU available for sale there nor is there any mention of RWRP.

Here are my questions:

1) Is the regular ASAT special neck pickup RWRP relative to the bridge PU? I think it is because it has yellow and green wires instead of black and white. Also, when I've played ASAT Specials before the middle position was dead silent while the neck and bridge had some hum.

2) If I use 2 of the same PU in the neck and middle (I'm guessing they're both RWRP relative to the bridge PU), will I have phase issues in the neck/middle position? Does anybody have a wiring diagram? Even general guidance would be appreciated.

3) Do the ASAT Special PU covers pop right off? I see Creme covers available but not Creme neck PUs. I'm guessing that I can just order Creme covers and replace the white ones.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[NickHorne]

The neck pup of a Special is indeed RWRP with respect to the bridge. So a Special hum-cancels when both are on; it's just a regular T-type circuit, apart from the way G&L wire the tone pot (slight difference from Fender-style).

What you need for a 3-pickup guitar depends on how you want it to be. For example, a Strat does not hum-cancel when wired to give neck + bridge together.
But if a Strat-type wiring scheme is what you're after, with the only hum-cancelling combination settings being neck + middle and middle + bridge, then you need the RWRP in the middle, and a non-stock neck pup of the same magnetic and wind polarities as the bridge.

And here may be your difficulty: I don't know of a Special-type neck pup that is made with the same polarities as the bridge. You can't just use another bridge pup (it's much longer).

Craig may know, if anyone does.

Covers do come off, with CARE. The windings are a close fit inside the cover, and the waxing can make them adhere a bit. I haven't damaged one yet but I have heard of it happening. Z-coils are another story, and the covers should be left well alone! You should be able to get cream Special pickups; my 2014 Special has two of them!

[jackstraw]

What you need for a 3-pickup guitar depends on how you want it to be.

Thanks for the input, you're right that I didn't make my goal clear.

I'm aiming to get a mix of Tele and Strat tones with a 6 way switch...

Neck only
Neck + bridge
Bridge only
Neck + middle
Middle only
Middle + bridge

I'd like for Neck + middle and Middle + bridge to have Strat-esque quack. Using an ASAT Special PU in Neck and Middle, I guess I'll get hum cancelling in Neck + bridge and Middle + bridge, right? I was concerned about Neck + middle having phase issues and cancelling, is that possibly and issue?

Thanks again for the help.

[NickHorne]

"Quack" doesn't depend on polarity, but only the physical locations of the two pickups in question along the length of the string, and not on any sort of phase-reversal. It works exactly the same with two identical pups as it does with a RWRP pair.

You will get quack with both the neck + middle and middle + bridge combinations, even though the neck + middle combination won't be hum-cancelling.
Just wire the Neck and middle pups in the same polarity, i.e. same wire colours to ground and live (assuming they're both Special - type neck units).

This will produce an Asat Special with the additions of:
Neck + Middle, with quack, but no hum-cancelling.
Middle pup alone.
Middle + Bridge pups, with quack and also with hum-cancelling.

You don't need, or want, to reverse the phase of any of the pups' wiring.

[jackstraw]

"Quack" doesn't depend on polarity, but only the physical locations of the two pickups in question along the length of the string, and not on any sort of phase-reversal. It works exactly the same with two identical pups as it does with a RWRP pair.

You will get quack with both the neck + middle and middle + bridge combinations, even though the neck + middle combination won't be hum-cancelling.
Just wire the Neck and middle pups in the same polarity, i.e. same wire colours to ground and live (assuming they're both Special - type neck units).

This will produce an Asat Special with the additions of:
Neck + Middle, with quack, but no hum-cancelling.
Middle pup alone.
Middle + Bridge pups, with quack and also with hum-cancelling.

You don't need, or want, to reverse the phase of any of the pups' wiring.

Thanks so much for the help Nick.

[NickHorne]

Your 3-pup Special is very attractive.

The only alternative that I can think of (and not to belittle your concept at all) is the "Asat Cat".
You might like to search around about these for comparison, possibly here @ g&ldp. They are basically the same idea except that the middle pup is an S500.
I don't know, but I imagine the polarities are Strat-style, with hum-cancelling at positions 2 & 4.
Your neck + bridge selection may not come stock on one of these.

Your cover colours would be more limited, though; I'm pretty sure S500s only come in white or black. Nicely ballsy-stratty pups though.

Must say I really like your 3-pup Special

[jackstraw]

Your 3-pup Special is very attractive.

The only alternative that I can think of (and not to belittle your concept at all) is the "Asat Cat".
You might like to search around about these for comparison, possibly here @ g&ldp. They are basically the same idea except that the middle pup is an S500.
I don't know, but I imagine the polarities are Strat-style, with hum-cancelling at positions 2 & 4.
Your neck + bridge selection may not come stock on one of these.

Your cover colours would be more limited, though; I'm pretty sure S500s only come in white or black. Nicely ballsy-stratty pups though.

Must say I really like your 3-pup Special

Thanks Nick. I saw the ASAT Cat gutiars and some other "ASAT Special 3" guitars out there on Reverb. I went custom because I wanted a neck thicker than anything that G&L offers (it's a Warmoth Boatneck with a 1 11/16" nut). Once I decided to go custom, I also decided to go for the 3 PUPs and the 6 way wiring with a Freeway switch mounted in a Les Paul position. I was originally asking for a bass cut like the S500, but the builder talked me into doing a blend pot to blend in a bit of the neck or bridge PUPs. I'm not sure how much I'd use the bass cut with the MFDs, they aren't boomy like P90s or Humbuckers.

I received it earlier this week, it plays great and I definitely get 6 different tones in the different positions. I haven't figured out how I'll use the blend pot, but I have the possibility of switching to a bass cut down the road if I want to.

I looked up guidelines on posting photos, but it seems that they only encourage posting of G&L instruments on this board. Totally understandable.

Thanks again for the help figuring this out.

I do have one more question though... how low can the PUPs be adjusted in a G&L ASAT Special? I tend to like mine lower but I'm hitting the limit of adjustment in this custom guitar.

[NickHorne]

I'm glad to hear you're getting a good result.

I have my Special's pups pretty low on the bass side.
I just measured, and they're like this:

E strings fretted at 22nd.

Both pups have low E at 4.1mm underside of string to pole screw (poles screwed in)

And both have high E at 1.6mm underside-to-string. The high E poles are somewhat raised, the neck the more of the two.

These may be somewhat extreme adjustments, but for my hybrid / fingerpicking they are giving me very good balance. I really like to get a guitar to speak evenly with a relaxed picking hand, rather than just resorting to compression to sort things out. Plus I find that when pups are too close, everything gets much louder up the neck due to the action bringing the strings proportionally much closer. There's a definite dropping-off height for any pickup, and I like to stop just a little above that; everything works well then. MFDs are very tolerant of a bit of distance. Nice.

I am stringing with D'Addario Pro Steel, which work better than anything else for me; great balance and a grand-piano bottom end.
This may be a factor in my setup, as the wound strings are significantly louder than regular sets.

I couldn't quite get the bridge pup low enough (without tightening worryingly forcefully) so I removed some of the foam from behind it on the bass side, being careful with the handling of the pickup (windings / wax can sometimes adhere to the inside of covers).

[jackstraw]

Thanks for that detail, Nick. I really appreciate the help.

I've got my pickups as low as I can get them, which ends up about 2.5 mm from the bottom of the fretted low E string. Honestly, I'm happy with the sound at this height, but of course this has me wondering if I'd be even happier if I had them lower.

I think this is a "shut up and play" situation, but if you have any insight on the sound differences between 2.5 and 4 mm height I'd appreciate it.

[NickHorne]

I think there's a fair chance that my setup is not for everyone.
I play with nail-less bare fingers, no picks. Bare thumb too.
I am super-allergic to over-loud G-strings and also volume increasing a lot as I play up the neck and the string-to-pickup distance decreases. I know that the shorter string will be moving less too, but the two factors don't balance out for me until the pickup is some way off.
If I used more bass-lift at my amp, then that would lift the low notes and begin to balance that out, but it's not what feels or sounds right to me.
My choice of string (the Pro Steels) is so I can get the wound strings to keep up with the G, without having to have their poles near to them. So I'm also optimising my balance that way, and then just have to raise the A, D and top E poles a bit and I'm in business.

Overall, I would just say that the sound becomes more woody and less in-your-face-present with the bass end lowered. But my choice of strings may be the only thing that's making such a distant setting work OK. The up-and-down-the-neck balance improves (for me) but again that may well be my own perception due to my fingerpicking and individual brain....

I'm pretty sure that the fingerstyle playing has a lot to do with how I perceive playing force with volume.
And this is not rock playing (or not much of it). It's more clean-to-valvy-snarl country-ish (think Jerry Donahue, Clarence White) or clean-to-diode-dirty (think Bill Frisell).
And of course if I could play like my examples, I would be one very happy chappy....

[jackstraw]

Thanks Nick. That aligns with what I observed getting the pickups down to 2.5 mm. Perhaps I'll try to go lower at some point in the future, but for now I'm enjoying what I've got.