Tuning Frustration

[timoteoverde]

Hey all!

I recently picked up a nice 2013 Blueburst Legacy Tribute for a good price, and the thing seems to be mint more or less. However, I'm utterly frustrated by how early and often I end up out of tune, to the point where I have been researching obsessively to get to the bottom of it. There's some great info on setups and potential problems in this forum, but nothing seems to have done the trick, so this is why I'm posting. To give you an idea of what I've already looked at:

* Restrung the guitar. Strings appeared new when I got it, but just had to get this out of the way.
* Adjusted height of saddle to meet specifications that I found here (2/32")
* Before restringing, shaved a pencil and sprinkled some graphite across the nut.
* New strings have been stretched.
* Measured neck relief. Seems pretty close to what it should be coming out of the factory.
* Intonation is pretty close, but my issue is that UNFRETTED strings are quickly out of tune, so I don't think this should be relevant.

I understand it is a fact of life that guitars will go out of tune, but I've owned plenty of others and NEVER have I:

1. Tuned
2. Play a few chords for a couple of minutes

...and needed to tune again. This is totally nuts. Could it be the configuration of the springs behind the bridge maybe? I'm not sure if this is common, or if there is any way to test.
I really appreciate you guys taking a look at this.

[GeorgeB]

Looks like a common problem heard of quite often. 99% it is two things :
i) nut not properly filed and lubed
ii) strings not stretched and/or to many turns on the tuning posts
Sometimes a suboptimal string tree can add to tuning problems with B and e strings.
If someone ruined the tremolo by trying to adjust the two posts at full string tension this also can cause problems.
Occasionally there is a bad tuning machine, but that would rectrict the problem to one string, not all.
I don't think the trem springs could be a issue, unless there is extremely little pull force on them. Better use one less and have higher tension on the remaining one, in case of doubt.

The nut is the most essential thing, the slots must have the proper width and the correct angle to avoid stick-slip string motion. And it should be a pefectly smooth surface along the string, plus some lubing is essential. Pencil powder is a good start, but I prefer pure graphite mixed with a droplet of machine oil to give some sort of grease.
In my experience the point is most guitars, even custom shop jobs from the big names, don't come with a 100% properly prepared nut (only exception is PRS).

I've set up three G&Ls (Tribute series), two with tremolo, in the last days. I replaced the metal string trees with Graphtec parts, also increasing height above headstock. These two guitars with tremolo are the most stable wrt tuning I've ever had. Period. So it is definitely a setup thing.

[GeorgeB]

Two pics, showing string tree and nut detail (click to see full resolution)


note the spacer under the string tree.


Note the triangular filed slots, slot angle and the graphite grease.

[darwinohm]

Tim, the modifications to the nut are probably unnecessary as is the spacer under the string tree if they are stock. As GeorgeB mentioned these things can be the problem but I have never experienced them with the over 20 G&L's that I have owned. Lets back up a bit. First thing to check is to make sure the top post nuts on the tuners are tight. As the humidity lowers the neck shrinks and the tuners can become loose around the post mount (not the knob). If they are tight then I would move to the DF as the source of you issue. First of all follow the G&L manual available on this site for starting bridge height. This is done by adjusting the posts and should be properly set from the factory. It they require adjustment, loosen the string tension before adjusting the pole screws. I would also put something under the df to keep it relatively level while working on it. This is a 2013 so wear is not likely the issue. After the DF height is correct on both side and assuming the felt washers are in place, tune it up and adjust the trem springs to get the DF perfectly level and parallel to the body. This will require retuning several times during the adjustment. After the DF is level to the body and the guitar is tuned properly, it should stay in tune if everything is adjusted to spec unless your new strings have not been stretched after installing. The DF is very stable when set up properly. Our lead player has a Legacy which is unbelievable stable. He had problems with his Tele the last two gigs and the tuners had become loose from shrinkage of the headstock. Let us know what happens with this. We've had posts like this in the past and usually a proper setup solved the issues-- Darwin

[timoteoverde]

Thanks to both of you! Wow! I had no idea you guys would put so much thought/time into the responses, I really appreciate it. I already took a quick look at the post nuts, and they seem to be secure on all of the tuners. Now bear in mind I don't have a tool to check if they are VERY secure, but there is definitely no movement clockwise when I pinch and turn with a good amount of pressure. If this isn't a satisfactory test, let me know and I'll head to the hardware store when I get a chance to find the right tool.

Now, as far as the bridge goes - I have one of those fret rulers and I can confirm that the bridge is at the correct height. I did the adjustments myself by tightening/loosening the springs as darwin described. I did this successfully without adjusting the pole screws. I'm guessing pole screws are just adjusted to ensure that the side of the bridge nearest to the neck is also at the correct height?

Note: One of the bridge screws wasn't exactly drilled into the body straight, so it was a little tricky to get the bridge plate to line up correctly with the body originally. My original hypothesis was that crooked bridge plate means the spring tension may be imbalanced, but correcting the plate and thus tension didn't really improve the situation. I'm happy to take off the backplate and snap a picture for you guys if that would help.

I guess that leaves us with what George said about the nut? I don't have any other thoughts at this point, and when I restrung the guitar a few (but not all) strings fit in snugly. Just to reiterate, I can't isolate this to any particular strings, all become detuned consistently.

Again, I really appreciate all of your input!

[Craig]

Thanks to both of you! Wow! I had no idea you guys would put so much thought/time into the responses, I really appreciate it. I already took a quick look at the post nuts, and they seem to be secure on all of the tuners. Now bear in mind I don't have a tool to check if they are VERY secure, but there is definitely no movement clockwise when I pinch and turn with a good amount of pressure. If this isn't a satisfactory test, let me know and I'll head to the hardware store when I get a chance to find the right tool.

Now, as far as the bridge goes - I have one of those fret rulers and I can confirm that the bridge is at the correct height. I did the adjustments myself by tightening/loosening the springs as darwin described. I did this successfully without adjusting the pole screws. I'm guessing pole screws are just adjusted to ensure that the side of the bridge nearest to the neck is also at the correct height?

Note: One of the bridge screws wasn't exactly drilled into the body straight, so it was a little tricky to get the bridge plate to line up correctly with the body originally. My original hypothesis was that crooked bridge plate means the spring tension may be imbalanced, but correcting the plate and thus tension didn't really improve the situation. I'm happy to take off the backplate and snap a picture for you guys if that would help.

I guess that leaves us with what George said about the nut? I don't have any other thoughts at this point, and when I restrung the guitar a few (but not all) strings fit in snugly. Just to reiterate, I can't isolate this to any particular strings, all become detuned consistently.

Again, I really appreciate all of your input!

I do think some photos at all points of string contact would be helpful. For posting photos, see: Tutorial: Posting photos.

[timoteoverde]

Ok, here we go. I'm going to be traveling and away from the Legacy starting later this evening, so hopefully these will be enough for now.











She's a beauty, isn't she? Now if I could only stay in tune
Thanks again everyone.

[timoteoverde]

A picture of the top of the saddles may be helpful also, so here's one last pic:

[Elwood]

Nice Pics!
I'm seeing binding points at the nut that could hold tension.
(also that D string looks like it will break soon).

elwood

[timoteoverde]

Thanks for pointing this out. Is fine sandpaper the best way to open up the nut a little bit without affecting the action? I've never done this before.

[Elwood]

Well, nut files are better, but you can get there with sandpaper.
The thing to remember is that once you've gone too far... you'll have to buy a new nut and start over.

Sandpaper can work , but use a string slightly smaller than the final desired width. The sandpaper and the motion it takes to open the slot a bit can quickly open up the slot more than you want....and then you have a rattle.
There are some decent tutorials on youtube that will get you more familiar with the process.


Good luck and go slow and meticulous (or hire someone if you aren't feeling the zen of it all )

elwood