Z-coil project beginnings

[patricks]

Hi all,

I'm thinking of embarking on a project to mess with some z-coils and see how they sound as s-coils. My plan was to take a few apart and mount the coils on square base plates so I can use a pickguard routed for humbuckers and swap them back and forth easily. I have an old, beat up guitar that I can use as a test mule, but I have a few questions before ripping into the pickups.

1) I can't for the life of me find the thread that shows pics of the guts of a z-coil. I searched all through the Knowledge base, but couldn't find the specific post. Can someone point me in the right direction?

2) How are the coil/magnet assemblies mounted on the base plate? Are they just held on magnetically, or are they glued on?

3) Does anyone have some z-coils that they don't need? I'm factoring in an "oops" or two and at $120 a pop I don't really want to destroy brand new ones. I doubt that G&L sells factory seconds and used Tribute Comanches aren't all that cheap.

Cheers
Pat

[Elwood]

I've got a z-coil project going (within reach) and IIRC the cover was loose, I'll snap some pics ...be right back.

Glued on is the verdict.

[patricks]

Ooh, cool, thanks!

[patricks]

Great, thanks so much for that! A little solvent on a cotton tip will probably get the magnets off the base plate bit by bit. I read about some really thin double-sided tape somewhere that should do the trick when it comes to converting z-coils to s-coils and back (just thinking out aloud here)

Did you have any trouble getting the covers off?

[Elwood]

Did you have any trouble getting the covers off?

Only one of three was loose. It was tight still.
You might be able to see in the pics the flat area that has compressed from the pressure of the cover.
So I would gently warm with a hair dryer and go slooow, making sure to keep the cover square as it lifts, otherwise the lower edge can dig into the coil. Once it starts to slip easily it should continue to raise with no problems as long as it is kept square .
Sounds like a worthy endeavor...keep us posted !

[patricks]

Sweet, thanks again
Just found a thread with a video on pickup construction, too - about three and a half minutes in Steve also says that the magnets are glued to the base plate: http://guitarsbyleo.com/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2580

I'd heard about the hairdryer trick, but good to have the cautionary reminder - I do get enthusiastic so I'll make sure I go slooow

It may be a little while until I get around to it, I'm moving back to Oz soon and it'll be a few months until I get settled enough to really start the project. In the meantime I'm going to try a Wil Ray bridge pickup in my guitar and see how that makes me feel. Wanting an s-coil comes from a desire for more bass in the treble and vice versa when I'm on the bridge pickup, but if the Wil Ray is more "meaty" then that'll probably tide me over for a while. Until I get restless and want to swing a soldering iron...

[Zippy]

Having never seen a pup winder, I would have never guessed in a million years they spun that fast. Amazing.

OK guys, I'll bite again since I seem to be our resident idiot, what is an S coil? How is it different from Will's Z coil pups? Also, how many strands of wire connect the two sides of the Z coils you show. Is the wire winding completely wound on one set of poles before it crosses over and winds on the second set?

Sorry so many questions but I like this kind of stuff.

Larry

[Elwood]

... what is an S coil?
Larry

Single Coil , so the idea here is to straighten out the "Z" configuration to fit under a typical Single coil cover.
(What a good idea BTW )

The leads (two per coil, one positive,one negative) come out the plate on the bottom. that's a great idea since it allows
for series/parallel or what they do on the Comanche VI, having the option of just using one coil at a time.

[Zippy]

Oh, I see. So you're just lining them up rather than having them staggered. The wiring is your basic humbucker 4 wire system used for spit coil push/pull or switch stuff. Easy enough.

There's a Comanche Vl now? Man, I'm out of the loop.

Does it sound any different? Also, once you straighten them out, how can you get the poles to still line up under the strings?

Zippy

[Elwood]

There's a Comanche Vl now? Man, I'm out of the loop.

Does it sound any different? Also, once you straighten them out, how can you get the poles to still line up under the strings?

Zippy

The Comanche Vl came out in the late 80's , they made a small run of similar instruments called the 'Studio VI' (http://www.glguitars.com/instruments/US ... /index.asp).
Funny they called it the Studio, because unless you really know the guitar..in a live situation you just might get lost in switching possibilities.
It really doesn't take that long before it becomes second nature .

The Sound is a bit more open and airy running the coils in parallel as opposed to series like in the Z3 guitars.
Good question about the alignment.I dunno (yet ).

[helle-man]

Is this what you mean by "S" coil? This is an ASAT that Mac Whiteside modified for me so that instead of a standard Z coil (pictured near the bottom of the guitar), the "S" coils are reversed.

There's not a lot of difference in sound until you get to the bridge PU, which is less brittle sounding since the treble strings are amplified further away from the bridge than the standard Z coil.

[Elwood]

I bet your right Will, I was wondering why patricks mentioned a HB size plate, now I see the light.

[youtube]lX5tfRdkoY0[/youtube]

[patricks]

Is this what you mean by "S" coil?

Yup, that's exactly it

Also, once you straighten them out, how can you get the poles to still line up under the strings?

I don't think you could, unless you very carefully shaved off some of the fibre wafers to make them thinner side-to-side. I'm not gonna volunteer for that project, though, I'd probably get ham-fisted and stuff it up.

There's not a lot of difference in sound until you get to the bridge PU, which is less brittle sounding since the treble strings are amplified further away from the bridge than the standard Z coil.

Ah, good to know. I wondered whether there might be a bit more bass in the neck pickup, too. In that spot, the strings are probably vibrating enough that turning the "Z" into an "S" doesn't move the coil far enough to make a difference.

With your bridge pickups on sale at the G&L store, I might get two - one stock and one to experiment on
They look great with the covers off, too!

[NickHorne]

Careful! Looks like Mac put some protective black tape or string around the naked coils in Will's reversed pickups (?) This may be 1: necessary, and 2: risky to do....... I've never wound a Tele pup and put the string on, and I don't fancy it either.

One idea that I've had for a while, and will try, is this: The two short wires, that emerge from the back of the Z-coil pup and are joined together in a bit of sleeving, are the mid-point between the two series coils. I'm going to try a small capacitor (probably .0033uF or even smaller) between that mid-point and the other end of the coil for the top 3 strings (which could be either the live or the ground end of the overall pickup; there's no way of telling from the outside, so I'll just have to try shorting each end in turn to the midpoint, to find out which connection I need for the EBG coil). This little cap will lower the resonant frequency of the coil for the top 3, while leaving the bottom 3 alone (or possibly slightly increasing their twang), and give fatter - but - not - dull highs.

I agree with Will that it's only relevant at the bridge pup. The cap may end up being very small, or the idea abandoned, as I do like the WR back pup very much just as it is; I'd even say it's my favourite - ever back pickup. But I'll give the idea a quick spin, just because I've had it, to see if there's anything to be gained.

This won't involve disturbing the cover (which I'm wary of).

[patricks]

Ah, thanks for pointing out the protective tape/string on the naked coils. You're right, that would be necessary to prevent damage - as long as I didn't damage them applying it in the first place.
Will, can you shed any light on the tape/string?

The cap idea sounds quite interesting - it might change the resonant frequency of the bass coil a bit, too, cos you'd have a series LC circuit between the bass coil and ground. My electrical engineering knowledge is limited, though, so I may well be off the mark

[NickHorne]

If the cap across the "top" coil does anything to the signal from the bottom one, it would only be to pass very slightly more highs; I don't think any meaningful resonance effect would be evident.
The extra - at - high frequency effect would be very small, and probably not musically significant. I only mentioned it because it was in a benign direction, and not a negative one, so if it was audible at all, it would be a bonus and not a problem.

[patricks]

Good stuff, thanks for the explanation - I've just spotted a mistake in my previous post, the bit about raising the resonant frequency. I was thinking of it as a low pass filter, which would raise the corner frequency as you said. I haven't got the first clue about resonance, actually

You've got me curious about pickups and resonance now, I've just been doing some googling and it's cool stuff!

[helle-man]

Ah, thanks for pointing out the protective tape/string on the naked coils. You're right, that would be necessary to prevent damage - as long as I didn't damage them applying it in the first place.
Will, can you shed any light on the tape/string?

Yes, there's black protective tape on my S coils because the original plastic Z covers were no longer an option to protect the pickups. And I didn't want exposed coils. Of course, once you tape them, there's no going back. You're committed.

Like I said before, the biggest difference was on the bridge PU, which seemed less trebly and bright, which I considered a good thing. The other 2 PU's had a much more subtle change to the tone.

Will

[astutzmann]

great post, might allow for the S coils in a lefty project!

[patricks]

Yes, there's black protective tape on my S coils because the original plastic Z covers were no longer an option to protect the pickups.

Great to know, thanks heaps