buzz on upper frets

[fianoman]

I have a mid-90s Legacy that is buzzing on the upper frets. I have gone through and done a set-up and it is very mild at this point but it is bugging me and would like to know what others would do. Most of the buzzing is coming from the tongue frets and I think at this point my choices are to add a shim to the front of the neck pocket or lightly file the frets. Obviously, if I file there is no turning back but given the mild condition of the buzz, I think one or two passes on the last 7 or 8 frets should do it. If I shim, it might work but I would have to take the neck off and do another set up. Any thoughts? And what would your material choice be for a thin, thin shim? I can probably dig up some plastic sheets. I can imagine needing more than a biz card thick, probably less. I have already checked the micro tilt and it is all the way out so it is a non-factor in this. Thank you for the help.

[Craig]

I have a mid-90s Legacy that is buzzing on the upper frets. I have gone through and done a set-up and it is very mild at this point but it is bugging me and would like to know what others would do. Most of the buzzing is coming from the tongue frets and I think at this point my choices are to add a shim to the front of the neck pocket or lightly file the frets. Obviously, if I file there is no turning back but given the mild condition of the buzz, I think one or two passes on the last 7 or 8 frets should do it. If I shim, it might work but I would have to take the neck off and do another set up. Any thoughts? And what would your material choice be for a thin, thin shim? I can probably dig up some plastic sheets. I can imagine needing more than a biz card thick, probably less. I have already checked the micro tilt and it is all the way out so it is a non-factor in this. Thank you for the help.

This topic comes up from time to time, you might try using the Search link and use "fret buzz" keywords.

Hope this helps.

[fianoman]

Actually, I did a number of searches and read quite a lot to try and find some answers. I did not see any that discussed dressing the frets as a solution to buzz on the upper frets. Is it because it is a bad idea and non-reversible?

[Craig]

It would be useful for us to know:

- Which bridge type do you have: the DFV or the optional Saddle-Lock hardtail bridge?
- Did you use one of the G&L Owner's Manuals for your setup? Version 1 or Version 2?
- Providing the specific neck and bridge settings would be useful, too.
- What string gauge are you using?
- Can you post some photos, especially some showing the frets which you are experiencing buzzing on. Are they fully seated on the fretboard?

[Philby]

Before you file the upper frets, I'd try adjusting the truss rod till the neck is nearly flat (just a very slight concave bow). Then try shimming the front of the neck as you have suggested and see if that helps.

Of course this assumes that the bridge and saddle heights are set up as per spec.

[KenC]

I'm confused - why are we talking about shimming a mid-90s Legacy? If it was built before the middle of 1998, it has a micro-tilt. I'm also confused about the need for shimming (or using the micro-tilt) in the first place if there is minor buzzing on the upper frets. You would want to set the neck relief to factory specs first to get the strings clear of the frets stop the buzzing, and then use the saddles to fine-tune the action and intonation.

Of all my G&Ls, the only one that needed the micro-tilt is an '82 SC-2. The original owner left it in a closet for thirty years, and when I bought it the action was unplayable above the third or fourth fret. Even with the relief dialed in perfectly and the saddles all the way down on the bridge plate, the action was still too high over the upper frets. A careful micro-tilt adjustment made things perfect.

If the buzzing is coming from the last 2-3 frets, you could also be looking at a mild case of ski-jump from improper use of the micro-tilt. That's a whole different issue though, to be pursued if you can't eliminate the buzz with relief and saddle adjustments. One or two popped frets could also cause this kind of problem. A couple of months ago I found an '86 SB-1 with buzzing on the G string from around the 16th through the 20th frets. It turned out to be that the 21st fret had sprung very slightly. It actually settled in after a day or two in East Coast humidity, after years in the desert. That wouldn't have been a difficult repair, though.

Ken

[fianoman]

The micro-tilt only helps with too much bow or high action, yes? no? The micro-tilt will not help a ski-jump neck (assuming the screw is already backed out fully). It will only push it up further. I do not believe I have a ski jump issue – it looks straight.

I will try to get more specific numbers and maybe photos Craig but I do not have the guitar with me now. I was using the second manual as a guide.

The set up on this guitar was pretty wonky when I bought it. It is a vibrato bridge guitar and the bridge was set at 1/8 off the body (specs call for 3/8") and the #6 saddle only had a gap of 1/16" (calls for 1/8"). The #5 and #4 saddles were also pretty low. The guy I bought it from had heavy gauge strings on it and the truss rod was cranked down pretty good – fortunately still in good shape though. I have 10s on it now but will probably switch to 9's at some point (tendon issues). He may have thrown heavy ones on there to create extra tension to hide buzz and make the sale? Don't know but the guitar is playing much better now.

Anyway, I will take a closer look at the frets. Didn't see any loose frets. Putting a straight edge to it, they seemed nice and level from 12 up. My inclination is to tweak my set up one more time and take Shilby's advice, go through the truss adjustment again and shim the front slightly if the buzz is still there.

Thanks for the input!

[KenC]

The micro-tilt only helps with too much bow or high action, yes? no?

It's hard to describe, but the net effect of adding in micro-tilt is like dropping the entire bridge. The 1983 factory setup instructions call for adjusting the low E saddle height to 1/8", and then using the micro-tilt to get the action down to the factory spec of 0.093" above the 22nd fret. The other saddles are adjusted from there. You could absolutely go that route to set the action, if it's measurably higher than 0.093" on the low E string without the micro-tilt. The factory needs to consider that buyers will want their setup tweaked a bit, but an owner just needs to dial it in to personal preference. Personally, having the neck and body in full contact in the pocket is more important to me than following the exact spec on my own guitars and basses. I set the neck relief to the factory spec, and then find the action I want by adjusting the saddles. Out of more than two dozen three-bolt G&Ls, I've only needed to use the micro-tilt on one. I hope this makes sense they way I've tried to describe it. Please let me know if it doesn't!

The micro-tilt will not help a ski-jump neck (assuming the screw is already backed out fully). It will only push it up further. I do not believe I have a ski jump issue – it looks straight.

Exactly. Ski-jump is caused by adding micro-tilt, and then cranking the neck screws down as tight as they will go. Since the straightedge laid flat from the 12th fret up, you aren't dealing with ski-jump and probably not with a popped fret either. It sounds to me like you are dealing with either not enough neck relief (that is, the truss rod is a bit too tight) or the bridge/saddles being too low (or a combination of the two).

My inclination is to tweak my set up one more time and take Shilby's advice, go through the truss adjustment again and shim the front slightly if the buzz is still there.

This sounds reasonable to me, but I still think you're heading the wrong way with the shim/micro-tilt. I'd get the string brand and gauge that you settle on, and follow the setup instructions. I use a capo on the first fret, push the string down just past the 22nd fret, and use Dunlop picks for for feeler gauges - a 0.38 mm matches the G&L spec, but I prefer a bit more relief. Then I'd check for action and buzzing with the saddle set at 1/8", and adjust from there to get a clear note. Just make sure if you use the micro-tilt that you don't over-tighten the neck screws.

I set up my new-to-me PRS bass last night. The previous owner had a very different preference than mine. I'm pretty sure the low E was actually a B from a 5-string set. It was pretty much like you described your Legacy - the truss rod was cranked down to counteract some very heavy strings. When I went down to standard gauge strings, the neck went dead straight and I had buzzing on all of the strings along most of the fretboard. I loosened the truss rod very slightly to add relief, and after some minor tweaks to get the action to my preference and dial in the intonation it plays like a dream.

I hope this helps!

Ken

[fianoman]

Good information Ken. I appreciate your explanation and tips.

I am with you on the neck pocket. I really don't want to use the micro-tilt or a shim. Full contact is definitely preferred - which got me thinking about filing the frets in the first place. But... after reading everyone's thoughts, I think I will put a set of 9's on and re-do the entire set up. I am very close to a good setup so dropping down to a lighter set may actually help the situation.

Thank you everyone!! When I get a chance, I will give you an update. The world of free time moves pretty slow for me so it might be a while! When I bought this guitar for a project - I didn't realize how much of a project it would be.

[KenC]

Good information Ken. I appreciate your explanation and tips.

You're welcome. I'm glad to help. I remember how much of a struggle it was for me early on...

I am very close to a good setup so dropping down to a lighter set may actually help the situation.

If the root issue is not having enough relief to get the strings clear of the upper frets, going down a gauge will probably make the buzzing a bit worse. If that happens, gently loosening the truss rod should make everything right.

When I get a chance, I will give you an update.

Please do. We'd still love to see some photos of your guitar!

Ken

[fianoman]

Separate note: It was slow going back and forth to the separate pages on the manual so I saved all the pages I needed into 1 PDF file for easier viewing. If GBL is interested, I would be happy to do 1 PDF of the complete manual 1 and 1 PDF of the complete manual 2 for the site. Maybe Craig? - if you are interested let me know. It takes a little time but could get it done.

Ken - it's the opposite of Philby's, black with a white pick-guard. Not too exciting but the price was right for what I wanted. Will put a pic up when I can.

[Craig]

Separate note: It was slow going back and forth to the separate pages on the manual so I saved all the pages I needed into 1 PDF file for easier viewing. If GBL is interested, I would be happy to do 1 PDF of the complete manual 1 and 1 PDF of the complete manual 2 for the site. Maybe Craig? - if you are interested let me know. It takes a little time but could get it done.

I just added the PDF file version of the Version 2 manual which G&L has on their main site, in the FAQ section.
If you do have time to create a PDF file version of Version 1 that would be great. I will then add it to the Gallery, too.

Thanks,

[Ray Barbee Music]

A few things:

Shimming won't help upper fret buzz. Shimming can enable you to keep the action low without dropping the bridge or saddles so low.

If you shim, use a shim that covers the entire length of the neck pocket or close to it. Get a thin piece of wood, preferably the same wood as the neck or body, and belt sand it so that it is tapered correctly. Takes a few tries, and doesn't take much taper. It should be cut for the width of the neck pocket so that it sits against the bottom of the pocket without sticking out or leaving gaps. This will ensure good wood/wood contact remains and the tonal properties of the instrument are maintained. This is how I do shims. I can't even tell you how many guitars I've worked on where some bozo tech has been in there and stuck a piece of guitar pick under the end of the neck pocket as a shim. Lazy. Definitely not good for your tone.

Yes pre 98 G&Ls have the micro tilt, but for all the reasons a full pocket wood shim is good, those are tone killers and a non-starter. All my Legacies but one have that, and all of them have full pocket shims. I wouldn't even consider using the micro tilt.

Older necks, especially bolt-ons, are highly subject to a condition called tongue rise. That is a moniker we borrow from the acoustic world, but the phenomena is the same: Over time, the end of the neck swells up, so that the neck slopes up past the 12th fret. I see it all the time. This is the opposite of what you want. Ideally, the neck should slope downward in a gentle curve past the 12th fret, roughly equal to the relief a good, straight as possible for playability neck would have between the 1st and 12th fret, but convex instead of concave. If you have tongue rise or even insufficient fall-away, your guitar will buzz.

Do *NOT* attempt to file frets if you don't know what you're doing, or aren't prepared to ruin the frets learning, requiring a refret. Take it to someone who knows WTH they are doing.

I do a ton of fret jobs that are only 12th fret and up because I see this condition all the time, and it is less work and therefore cheaper for the customer to address only that part of the neck as often everything below that is just fine. Take it to someone who knows what they are doing and have them evaluate it, see if it can be fixed with just a partial level.

[Ray Barbee Music]

Also, as regards truss rod adjustment:

If there is too much relief in the neck and the action is set low, the upper frets, and probably all of it, will buzz. My general method of setting relief is to tighten the neck til it back bows enough to make the open strings or lower frets buzz, then back it off just til that stops. That gives you as straight a neck as you can have (for that neck anyway) without causing issues. Then you can raise the action back up to taste. That gives a better angle as the string goes over the fret in front of it, making the guitar buzz less overall.

You've probably seen tutorials or articles that tell you to set relief with a feeler gauge. If guitar necks were made out of high tolerance carbon fiber, I'd agree. The reality is that every neck is different, they are made of wood, and the right relief as shown with a feeler gauge on one neck is probably NOT the right relief on any other given neck. That's why I do it the way I do it, recognizing that all necks are different and letting that neck tell me when it is as straight as it will go without lower fret/open string issues.

But that might not be, and probably isn't, the issue.

In any case, if all that isn't old news to you, you definitely shouldn't be filing frets.

[fianoman]

Thank you for everyone's help.

I dropped the 9's on there and made some more adjustments - still buzzing. So... I cut a shim about half the length of the neck pocket and slid the shim to the front of the pocket. No more buzz!

I cut the shim from very hard clear plastic, about .014 inches thick, and it hasn't seemed to make any difference in tone or sustain. Decided I will live with that for now and have some fun playing it.

http://www.guitarsbyleo.com/GALLERY2/ma ... alNumber=3

[fianoman]

Hmmm... not sure what I did wrong in the last post. Was hoping to see a pic come up. Trying again.
Also, posted a few other pics in the gallery under fianoman.

[Fumble fingers]

Thank you for everyone's help.

I dropped the 9's on there and made some more adjustments - still buzzing. So... I cut a shim about half the length of the neck pocket and slid the shim to the front of the pocket. No more buzz!

I cut the shim from very hard clear plastic, about .014 inches thick, and it hasn't seemed to make any difference in tone or sustain. Decided I will live with that for now and have some fun playing it.

http://www.guitarsbyleo.com/GALLERY2/ma ... alNumber=3

my SC 2 had a shim from the factory in the neck pocket

[Philby]

my SC 2 had a shim from the factory in the neck pocket

That's an interesting photo, Fumble. I have a Japanese strat that has an official, Fender stamped piece of card as a shim in the front of the neck, i.e. the opposite end to your SC-2 and forward of the front screws.

I took it out once and the darned guitar would not set up for love or money. In fact I had the same symptoms as the OP. So the shim stays!

[fianoman]

my SC 2 had a shim from the factory in the neck pocket

Yowza, or should I say Yelp? They spared no expense on that shim! I was too embarrassed to show a pic of my plastic shim!

Go with what works I guess.

[Zippy]

I'm confused. You had fret buzz on the upper frets, but used a shim to raise the neck higher in the pocket and the buzz stopped? That jsut doesn't make sense to me.

Something else is going on here.

Just my 2 cents.

Larry

[Philby]

I'm confused. You had fret buzz on the upper frets, but used a shim to raise the neck higher in the pocket and the buzz stopped? That jsut doesn't make sense to me.

Something else is going on here.

Just my 2 cents.

Larry

Only the front of the neck was raised to change the string angle slightly. Raising the whole neck and maintaining the original angle would make the problem worse.

[busterfykes]

I have a mid-90s Legacy that is buzzing on the upper frets. I have gone through and done a set-up and it is very mild at this point but it is bugging me and would like to know what others would do. Most of the buzzing is coming from the tongue frets and I think at this point my choices are to add a shim to the front of the neck pocket or lightly file the frets. Obviously, if I file there is no turning back but given the mild condition of the buzz, I think one or two passes on the last 7 or 8 frets should do it. If I shim, it might work but I would have to take the neck off and do another set up. Any thoughts? And what would your material choice be for a thin, thin shim? I can probably dig up some plastic sheets. I can imagine needing more than a biz card thick, probably less. I have already checked the micro tilt and it is all the way out so it is a non-factor in this. Thank you for the help.

First off, have you used a straight edge, to ascertain, that the fingerboard is higher at that point? If so, then shimming isn't really the right approach. if you have a small amount of relief, from using the truss-rod, then, I would dress and re-crown the frets, starting around the 12th fret, but knowing, beforehand, that this will make those frets have an even higher action, with regards to the lower, un-filed and crowned ones. for best action, you'll need to dress all of the fretboard. i've seen this happen, from over-use of the microtilt. it won't really revert back, once the tilt screw has been backed off. usually, a neck heatpress will push the fingerboard back down. if you have a maple fingerboard, then not so much. I know know how frustrating this can be..
sorry, all of these other answers didn't show up, to me, before i posted, sorta redundant, on my part.

[fianoman]

I'm confused. You had fret buzz on the upper frets, but used a shim to raise the neck higher in the pocket and the buzz stopped? That jsut doesn't make sense to me.

Something else is going on here.

Just my 2 cents.

Larry

Only the front of the neck was raised to change the string angle slightly. Raising the whole neck and maintaining the original angle would make the problem worse.

Correct - only the front area was raised. After you bolt it back down, it effectively drops the end of the tongue down making those fret lower than the rest. Buzz gone... Think about it as tilting the whole neck up from the headstock. Not adding relief but just changing the angle.

Buster - I did consider filing the frets but that opens a whole can of worms if it didn't go well. This was quick, painless, reversible and worked!

Difficult for me to put into words but here is a photo. Hope it helps someone else.

I played it about an hour yesterday and really enjoyed it for the first time. I also dropped a set of Dimarzio Area PUPs in it and Clapton boost circuitry with custom switching but that's another story. Great fun!

[Zippy]

Oh, now I see what you did. Seems like it wouldn't give very good contact in the neck pocket but if it works, hey, let's rock.

Larry