New DF trem block design

[Zippy]

Hey guys, I'm not new to G&L at all. I've been reading on the new designs, specifically improvements on the trem block. My G&L is a '94 Legacy Special. Currently I must add extra string ends on two strings to keep the string windings off the saddles. On the G&L site it states they're improved the block to allow it to capture more of the string. Again, I've been out of the loop for about 6 years so my question is, did they change the block since about 2006? Also, I assume if I purchase one of these new blocks it will still fit on my old bridge. Is that correct?

Finally, what is that bridge design on jaginthebag's page photo?

Thanks again,
Larry

[Boogie Bill]

My immediate thought is that if you are having the double wrap coming up over the saddle, there is probably somethong wrong with the setup specs. If the geometry is right, it shouldn't do this.

While I don't have this problem with any of my DF Vibrato guitars, I do use the Fender Super Bullets strings and they eliminate this issue. Cheap fix if you want to go that route.

Bill

[Zippy]

Hey Bill. Good to hear from you again. This is Zippy from back in the early 2000's. We went through all this before on the forum many years ago. The guitar is set up perfectly. I know Fender Bullet strings don't have the big winding like the Slinky's or D'Addario's. I just thought they may have updated the trem block. I hope all is well with you and yours. Man, this board has sure changed since the old days.
Larry

[westsideduck]

Hey Larry,

I don't keep up much on what's happening with the new G&L blocks but back in 07-08 Gabe worked with Bill Callaham to design a trem block that fits the old Leo era G&L's, when they came out we did a group buy, I bought two, one is in my 80 F-100 and the other in my 82 S-500, I love them!!! The design puts almost all of the lower end of the string in the block which would solve your problem and helps with sustain, the materials used are very different also which makes a big difference. If I get some time I'll dig up the old posts with the specs.

Gary

[JagInTheBag]

The trem on my photo is a Leo Fender Fine Tuner Bridge, this one features a dual vibrato boss.

Gary- I'd be interested in the retro block redo.

[Craig]

Hey guys, I'm not new to G&L at all. I've been reading on the new designs, specifically improvements on the trem block. My G&L is a '94 Legacy Special. Currently I must add extra string ends on two strings to keep the string windings off the saddles. On the G&L site it states they're improved the block to allow it to capture more of the string. Again, I've been out of the loop for about 6 years so my question is, did they change the block since about 2006? Also, I assume if I purchase one of these new blocks it will still fit on my old bridge. Is that correct?

Finally, what is that bridge design on jaginthebag's page photo?

Thanks again,
Larry

Hi Larry

Good to see you back on the G&LDP.

The DFS trem block design was changed from the DF trem block to fix this. This is the trem block that you can purchase from
the G&L On-Line Store, however, they are currently out of stock. I have not heard back from Dave about when they will be available again.
It will fit in your older DF bridge.

BTW, this bridge block is CNC machined from 1018 cold rolled steel, while the current DF trem block is chome plated brass.

Hope this helps.

[westsideduck]

I here is what I found from gabe's old posts, I haven't played anything with a brass sustain that Craig says G&L is using now but I do remember from that old post I couldn't find that in Gabe's opinion brass wasn't the way to go. I don't understand why G&L would go from the 1080 cold rolled that leo used in the 50's to 60's to the brass except for price.

"It's been quite a few years now that I've been giving rave recommendations for Bill Callaham and his awesome blocks. Of course I've got something like 17 of them now...

Just a little history lesson for you...

I sent Bill a 1983 Cavalier Sustain block many years ago...which is what he used to model the block you bought for your Legacy.

They ain't pretty but there is something to be said for the research Bill has done around inertia blocks in general. He figured out the exact alloy Leo employed in the 50's and early 60's...he even determined that the alloy was missing something normally found in most steel alloys...lead. The lead presents a problem as it acts as a damper...not cool.

Also, as you noticed Bill opted to have the ball ends anchor all the way at the bottom of the block...this matters too.

In my opinion, the Callaham Block is the second most economical improvement you can make to any Dual Fulcrum guitar that has a measurable impact on tone. The 1st best thing you can do is toss the crappy stock plastic nut and replace it with a professionally built and installed fossilized ivory nut."

"
G&L Making Steel Tremblocks now? posted by Muff Wiggler on April 07, 2008 at 11:23:53:


: I just received a replacement DF bridge that I ordered from the G&L Webstore....
: The tremblock on this is a very shiny steel, and marked with the number 41.5

: the block on my stock legacy was a dull color, and appeared to be made of zinc, and had nothing marked on it.

: Does anyone know anything about this change in materials? And what does the 41.5 mean?

Yes, G&L switched from die-cast zinc to steel quite a few years ago now. Initially, they were painting them black I assume for aesthetic reasons but now they are chrome plated. I too have noted the 41.5 stamping on the new sustain blocks. I’m not sure what these means. It could be an internal numbering system by the vendor making it for G&L so they can keep tabs on the inventory. Or, perhaps a tooling number? I don’t think it is mass related…41.5oz’s is 2.6lbs. I really don’t know…perhaps if Dave McLaren is lurking he might comment?

One thing I do know is that I did cut apart one of the earlier steel G&L blocks and have my buddy who’s a metallurgist figure out the alloy. I have the test data somewhere noting the exact alloy used in my stash-o-stuff but the one finding that stuck out is that it had lead in it. The big deal with the old pre-CBS Fender sustain blocks was that they were made from UNS 1018 cold rolled steel. The big deal with this particular alloy is that it is lead free. This is important because lead actually acts as a damper of sorts altering the resonant frequency of the sustain block. This is one of the big selling points of the Callaham sustain blocks…the alloy used.

That said, employing any alloy of steel in place of the zinc previously used is an improvement.

Another observation I made regarding the modern Dual Fulcrum bridges…

I bought a lefty bridge off of the G&L website and was very pleased when it arrived in less than a week and we equally pleased by the very low price. I took it all apart to take a closer look and broke out my micrometers. As Dave McLaren had stated previously, everything is now metric including the brass pivot post inserts and the pivots themselves. One very obvious difference on the posts is the knurl pattern…it is considerably finer than the knurl found on the inserts used in the past. I don’t view this as a problem…just a difference. Same goes for the conversion to metric…not a problem…just different. I do find it curious that the “Patent Pending” verbage is still stamped into the plate considering the patent was granted a very long time ago and the patent protection for this design had expired years ago.

After a lot of careful measuring, of each piece and part I’m inclined to believe that the bridge I bought from the online store is not coming off the same tooling that the bridges made in the 80’s and 90’s were. There are minor dimensional differences of the plate stamping that I noted during my measuring exercise that lead me to this conclusion. The quality of the new bridge is actually physically better than the old including the plating though without hacking up a perfectly good bridge to determine the metallurgy, I have not confirmed if the steel used for the new bridge plate stamping is different from the old since I don’t really feel like buying a new bridge and hacking it up for metallurgical testing.

I’m totally speculating here but considering the retail price of the entire Dual Fulcrum assembly available on the G&L online store…I’m suspecting every single part of these bridges are being made in the far east these days. Continuing with my speculation…I’d say whoever is making the bridges for the Tribute line is most probably making the same parts used on the USA line.

Don’t get me wrong…I don’t view this as a bad thing…from a business decision perspective it would be a good move on G&L’s behalf. Getting all the pieces and parts of a Dual Fulcrum bridge made in the USA is a much more expensive proposition compared to say China for example. Especially, when you consider a low cost Far East vendor is already making the same stuff for the Tribute line.

Anyway, I only have a couple of complaints with the new bridges.

1. I don’t mind the smaller diameter chrome arm but I sure wish it had a much more aggressive bend in it more like the late 80’s bars. The length could stand to be shortened too.
2. The vibrato springs. The springs supplied with the new DF vibrato I purchased are identical to the low pull-rate springs supplied on countless Fender and Fender copy instruments. The original G&L two heavy duty springs with the special third lower pull rate spring found on G&L’s from 1981 to about 1996 are perfectly matched for the DF bridge. If you run .009’s or smaller you remove the middle spring and the feel and balance is perfect. If you run .010’s - .011’s you leave the special middle spring in place and the feel is a little stiffer but still smooth and balanced. If you like an even stiffer feel…run three of the heavy springs and you’ll be thrilled. With the new springs, I noticed, that the bridge responds much more readily than with the old springs and when you bend strings the bridge moves more readily as well which I really don’t care for.

Anyway, back to the sustain blocks (Leo called them “inertia blocks”) found on G&L’s today are definitely steel and definitely more attractive than the blocks used previously. "

[Zippy]

Guys, thank you so much. Adding the extra strings ends has become so custom to me that I don't mind. I also don't depend on music for my living aside that I repair others guitars. I don't even know if the sustain is changed because of the way I must string my Legacy. However, the thing is for me, I tell my customers about G&L. I let them play my G&L's. When/If they happen to see that thing I do with the string ends, there's usually an issue.

On another point. Does nobody fight, scream, and yell here anymore?

[Fumble fingers]

good thread !! .... I've been wanting to up grade my new Legacy and SC 2 to the DFS this thread really makes me want to, wish I would have order them with it , I just didn't know better ...... I also don't make a living playing guitar , if I did I would have to change my log name to "Skinny" from lack of food

[westsideduck]

On another point. Does nobody fight, scream, and yell here anymore?

Since the format change in 2010 all the old timers left, now this place is about exciting as white bread

[Zippy]

The trem on my photo is a Leo Fender Fine Tuner Bridge, this one features a dual vibrato boss.

Gary- I'd be interested in the retro block redo.

Wow. I have never seen one of those. What is the purpose in two trem ports?

[Zippy]

On another point. Does nobody fight, scream, and yell here anymore?

Since the format change in 2010 all the old timers left, now this place is about exciting as white bread

I noticed that. Back in the day there were players chomping at the bit to solve problems and answer questions. Of course, we fought like brothers and sisiters sometimes, but that was kinda fun. The format is kinda strange. Is there still a Marketplace?
Larry
p.s. Good to see you're still here.

[Boogie Bill]

We occasionally have a few dust ups, but Craig makes us behave! I do wish Dave McL would hang out more.

It is good to have you back Zippy. My response got a little truncated as I'm having to do these on my phone until my new computer gets set up.

Bill

[Craig]

The format is kinda strange. Is there still a Marketplace?
Larry
p.s. Good to see you're still here.

Yes, the Marketplace is still on the GbL, see Welcome! Read This First as it should help you navigate the current G&LDP
and GbL.

[Craig]

The trem on my photo is a Leo Fender Fine Tuner Bridge, this one features a dual vibrato boss.

Gary- I'd be interested in the retro block redo.

Wow. I have never seen one of those. What is the purpose in two trem ports?

See this post in the G&L Knowledgebase: Any info on the Leo Fender Fine Tuner Vibrato?.

For the purpose of the dual trem bosses, see this 1987 Ad Slick for the LF Fine Tuner bridge:

[Craig]

I here is what I found from gabe's old posts, I haven't played anything with a brass sustain that Craig says G&L is using now but I do remember from that old post I couldn't find that in Gabe's opinion brass wasn't the way to go.

I found the other post of Gabe's with his discovery of the brass trem blocks:

News Flash! New Dual Fulcrum Inertia Blocks are not Steel!!!
GPD on April 08, 2008 at 16:58:02:

Hey Gang,

So...last night, after the KU/Memphis game I spent an hour or so working on the mini X-Body guitar father/son project. I decided to go with a body thickness of 1.500" instead of the normal pre-BBE 1.625" with the intention of making the guitar as comfortable as possible for my 55lb, 7 year old son.

In doing this, I knew that the factory Dual Fulcrum, which was originally designed for a 1.625" thick body was going to have a fit problem do to the length of the inertia block.

Last night, I determined what length I needed the block to be and proceeded to set it up in my surface grinder in order to mill .168" off of the top so it would not interfere with the vibrato access plate.

Much to my shock, as I milled the excess material off the block was the reality that the friggin' thing is solid brass!!! Of course, the wheel I used for the grinding was designed for milling steel so, of course, it is now loaded up with melted brass.

To me, this was a rather startling discovery for a couple of reasons...

1. Brass, regardless of the alloy, is rather expensive...quite a bit more pricey than steel.

2. Why would G&L upgrade to brass and not make mention of it? Seriously? When the crappy zinc saddles were upgraded to billet brass, G&L was very quick to mention this.

After thoroughly inspecting the block it appears to be either investment cast or perhaps extruded. It definitely shows no evidence of being machined out of a solid billet. On the bottom, where the string thread-through holes are located you can see how the block was parted which was using a cut-off saw.

Very interesting indeed...

Keep in mind that brass, which has substantial mass compared to some other metals, is also quite soft meaning the resonant frequency will be quite different when compared to say cold rolled steel. One could swap out the three different blocks (zinc, steel and brass) and most certainly be able to audibly notice a difference in the sound of the same instrument.

I'm going to have to buy myself a few more DF's off the online store so I can do some more experimentation. In the past, I've found that brass actually works quite well, particulary on Floyd Rose bridges which with a steel block on them tend to really impart a harshness to the overall sound of any guitar. The Gotoh Floyd rose with the brass blocks don't do this. Also, because of the mass (greater than zinc or steel) most guitars equipped with a brass block tend to sustain quite well.

Very interesting discovery indeed! So the short-lived steel blocks appear to be history...a magnet will tell you for sure if you have a steel block. I don't know for certain when the steel blocks started getting used. The new blocks have a nice quality chrome plating on them so visually, they are easy to identify.

Very interesting...

I'll post some pix of my late night discovery for you all sometime tomorrow.

Gabe

From this, I don't see that Gabe's opinion of brass was not the way to go.

[westsideduck]

From this, I don't see that Gabe's opinion of brass was not the way to go.

Yeah, memory ain't what it used to be!!

[Zippy]

We occasionally have a few dust ups, but Craig makes us behave! I do wish Dave McL would hang out more.

It is good to have you back Zippy. My response got a little truncated as I'm having to do these on my phone until my new computer gets set up.

Bill

Bill, I just bought the new HP Chromebook for $279! This thing rules for what I need. Litttle solid state hard drive since everything is kept on the cloud. Super fast and never gets hot. It charges off my phone charger too. Just my 2 cents.


Larry

[Zippy]

Man, it's good to come back here and get good knowledge from people who care about their instruments.

I replaced my OEM saddles years ago when the chrome plated brass became available and I love them. I've set up countless DF's for friends and customers. You couldn't make my guitar go out of tune if you tried. It freaks out traditional Strat guys. I also upgraded the nut years ago. So, the only thing left in my opinion would be to swap out the trem block.

I gotta tell ya, this has been one great and versatile guitar. I love G&L's. I'm of afraid of the "new" 4 bolt necks with no tilt trim adjustment. No logical reason for this fear. I guess I'm an old softie for the traditional.

My Legacy is actually loaned to a friend while I do some work to his Strat. He and his son don't want to give it back. I may have to fight them for it!

Have some fun today,
Larry

[Ray Barbee Music]

Whether 1018 or brass sounds better depends on the ear of the listener and the guitar. I have the calaham 1018s on all my G&Ls, but while they sound great on some, on some they are just too bright. I'm going to switch those to brass, wish G&L offered the brass blocks in the store but they don't....would be a good upgrade for the old zincs.

Any change of them adding that? Wonder if I could bribe a dealer.

So is anyone SURE the new blocks fit the old trem plates? It's not just the thread, metric screw spacing is different. For instance, the Kahler Steeler is a great FR type trem, made of very solid steel the whole way around, but you can't upgrade the block because it uses Imperial measurements, so the screw holes for the block are ever so slightly different than metric. I wonder if the same applies to older G&L trem plates vs. the new metric ones.

[Craig]

So is anyone SURE the new blocks fit the old trem plates? It's not just the thread, metric screw spacing is different. For instance, the Kahler Steeler is a great FR type trem, made of very solid steel the whole way around, but you can't upgrade the block because it uses Imperial measurements, so the screw holes for the block are ever so slightly different than metric. I wonder if the same applies to older G&L trem plates vs. the new metric ones.

Until I hear otherwise, assume that the DFS trem block will only fit on the 2006 and later DF trem plates.

[Zippy]

So is anyone SURE the new blocks fit the old trem plates? It's not just the thread, metric screw spacing is different. For instance, the Kahler Steeler is a great FR type trem, made of very solid steel the whole way around, but you can't upgrade the block because it uses Imperial measurements, so the screw holes for the block are ever so slightly different than metric. I wonder if the same applies to older G&L trem plates vs. the new metric ones.

Until I hear otherwise, assume that the DFS trem block will only fit on the 2006 and later DF trem plates.

Well, that leaves me out. No big deal though. My guitar works great for what I do and it amazes people.
Thanks for the information.
Larry

[Craig]

So is anyone SURE the new blocks fit the old trem plates? It's not just the thread, metric screw spacing is different. For instance, the Kahler Steeler is a great FR type trem, made of very solid steel the whole way around, but you can't upgrade the block because it uses Imperial measurements, so the screw holes for the block are ever so slightly different than metric. I wonder if the same applies to older G&L trem plates vs. the new metric ones.

Until I hear otherwise, assume that the DFS trem block will only fit on the 2006 and later DF trem plates.

Well, that leaves me out. No big deal though. My guitar works great for what I do and it amazes people.
Thanks for the information.
Larry

Good news, see New Trem Blocks fit Old bridge plates.