Help! set up troubles

[cporro]

just got my first g&l. 87 asat special. i've done set ups before on fenders. got the v2 g&l manual but some things don't add up.

first i can't get my truss rod to spec (.01-.012"). i will only turn the thing with so much force you know. : ) i tried loosening the strings and adjusting. nope. one option is to take it to the shop. what voodoo will they perform? heat? stream? will that last? i had this issue with 3 strats and it was always a bad neck.

second issue. in the manual the #string dsaddle gets adjusted way high 1/8", then micro tilt adjusted so it have a .062" clearance at the 22nd fret. really? that's more like macro-tilting i think. : ) that's a change of about 1/8" to it's current height. seems so wrong. hold me. i'm scared.

thanks

[Ray Barbee Music]

If you need a manual to do a setup, you should be taking it to a good tech anyway.

As regards the truss rod issue, that sounds.........familiar. There is a trick that works with about 75% of guitars with that problem. Loosen the strings like you did, get the rod completely loose, then manually put the neck into a back-bow (I put the guitar on carpet, hold it between my feet, apply back pressure), then tighten the rod completely tight. You aren't asking the rod to do the work, just hold the shape. Then tighten the strings back up. Hopefully you can now loosen the rod a bit to get it where it needs to be. If that trick doesn't work, you have a bad problem.

The next possible way to address it is heat. If the board is maple, this probably won't work, it is very hard to get a maple neck/board to move much at all. If the board is rosewood, it may or may not work, and if it does work, it will probably be temporary and may go right back where it was the next time it sees thermal stress. It is hit and miss unfortunately. There are other steps you could take, like removing the rosewood board and re-shaping things, but that gets very expensive and unless the guitar is worth a whole lot or you have a huge sentimental attachment, I wouldn't recommend it.

[cporro]

If you need a manual to do a setup, you should be taking it to a good tech anyway.

i just forget things like which feel gauge to use. i don't do them day in day out but i think i know the basics. and fender's set up is bit different from g&Ls. so i like to see how they leave the factory.

i know about the back pressure method. have had limited success with it before. i personally haven't tried anything with heat. i probably won't either. i'll let the pros mess that one up. : )

i like the guitar a lot but frankly my opinion is there will be another one with a good neck i can like just as much. i'm not sentimental. franky, i've had it with bad necks. my next guitar will be new and under warranty.

[helle-man]

If you're not sure, just take it to a good guitar tech. Sometimes they can show you some tricks about truss rod adjustments.

I find G&L truss rods are pretty easy to adjust. A good tech will let you know if something is amiss. That can give you peace of mind.

My 2¢
Will

[cporro]

it's off to be pleked. and i think i just swore off used guitars. 270 and should play like a dream afterwards.

it had the sky jump hump mostly on the bass side. did i read that was from people over using the micro tilt? anyway should be sweet after it's done.

but $850 + $270 = pain in ass = about what i could have gotten a new asat special for with my favorite colors with a warranty. will my '87 sound better then a new one? who knows.

[Ray Barbee Music]

Tongue rise is a common problem, it is probably not from the micro tilt.

I do set up guitars day in and day out, G&Ls are no different from Fenders or even Gibsons for that matter. I set them up for user preference and even everything out, making them play as smooth as they possibly can, something most "techs" don't do and something that is never done at the factory by anyone at any manufacturer. Factory setup is an oxymoron.

[cporro]

Tongue rise is a common problem, it is probably not from the micro tilt.

I do set up guitars day in and day out, G&Ls are no different from Fenders or even Gibsons for that matter. I set them up for user preference and even everything out, making them play as smooth as they possibly can, something most "techs" don't do and something that is never done at the factory by anyone at any manufacturer. Factory setup is an oxymoron.

so what causes the dreaded hump? how can i not get it on a new guitar?

[Ray Barbee Music]

Well a number of things can cause it:

1) Improper fretboard planing on a new guitar. I see this quite a bit.

2) Wood swelling over time, thicker part swells more.

3) The constant pressure on the neck causing it to hump at the end.

I've talked to a lot of other techs about this and I've heard almost as many theories about the "why" of it as people I have talked to. Whatever the specific reason, it is a fairly common problem, and can often be addressed with just a partial level (i.e. 12th fret and up). If it is really bad, i.e. so bad you wouldn't have much fret left after addressing it and adding enough fall-away, you might need a refret. Usually not though. Sometimes it is really only the last fret or two that is the problem.

A quick test: If you hold the string down at the 12th fret and the last fret, ideally what you want to see is the string laying across the tops of all those frets with no space under it. That would indicate a nice sloping, or at least straight, fall-away. Note that the truss rod doesn't affect much of anything down there, so truss rod adjustment can't cure it. What you commonly see is some space under the string, indicating an upward slope somewhere in that range, which will invariably cause buzzing or fretting out unless the action is set quite high. The extent of the problem can be seen by the amount of space under the string. You can expect to take roughly that amount of fret plus a bit more off at the top of the board, and gradually less as you move back to the 12th fret. The question then becomes, do you have enough fret to do that and leave a tall enough fret at the end, or not? Also, if you do the check at various subdivisions between the 12th and last fret, you may find that the rise issue is only at the very end, or that you have low spots etc.

A string held down at two points on the fretboard becomes a straight edge, and you can identify an lot of fret problems very accurately using that tool. Far more so than "sighting down the board", which always makes me shake my head when I see it, because there are so many visual illusions and distortions that come in to play with that method. A straight edge doesn't lie.

Oh as to how you avoid it with a new guitar: Most guitars you pull off the wall have the action set so high that fret problems are obscured. They do that for a reason, I call it the "raise it til it quits 'a buzzin" method of set-up. If you do what I noted above as a quick test, i.e. hold the string down at the 12th and last fret at the same time and look for space under the string, that will tell you if you have that issue on that guitar regardless of the action set, and to what extent.

[cporro]

Well a number of things can cause it:

1) Improper fretboard planing on a new guitar. I see this quite a bit.

2) Wood swelling over time, thicker part swells more.

3) The constant pressure on the neck causing it to hump at the end.

I've talked to a lot of other techs about this and I've heard almost as many theories about the "why" of it as people I have talked to. Whatever the specific reason, it is a fairly common problem, and can often be addressed with just a partial level (i.e. 12th fret and up). If it is really bad, i.e. so bad you wouldn't have much fret left after addressing it and adding enough fall-away, you might need a refret. Usually not though. Sometimes it is really only the last fret or two that is the problem.

A quick test: If you hold the string down at the 12th fret and the last fret, ideally what you want to see is the string laying across the tops of all those frets with no space under it. That would indicate a nice sloping, or at least straight, fall-away. Note that the truss rod doesn't affect much of anything down there, so truss rod adjustment can't cure it. What you commonly see is some space under the string, indicating an upward slope somewhere in that range, which will invariably cause buzzing or fretting out unless the action is set quite high. The extent of the problem can be seen by the amount of space under the string. You can expect to take roughly that amount of fret plus a bit more off at the top of the board, and gradually less as you move back to the 12th fret. The question then becomes, do you have enough fret to do that and leave a tall enough fret at the end, or not? Also, if you do the check at various subdivisions between the 12th and last fret, you may find that the rise issue is only at the very end, or that you have low spots etc.

A string held down at two points on the fretboard becomes a straight edge, and you can identify an lot of fret problems very accurately using that tool. Far more so than "sighting down the board", which always makes me shake my head when I see it, because there are so many visual illusions and distortions that come in to play with that method. A straight edge doesn't lie.

Oh as to how you avoid it with a new guitar: Most guitars you pull off the wall have the action set so high that fret problems are obscured. They do that for a reason, I call it the "raise it til it quits 'a buzzin" method of set-up. If you do what I noted above as a quick test, i.e. hold the string down at the 12th and last fret at the same time and look for space under the string, that will tell you if you have that issue on that guitar regardless of the action set, and to what extent.

thanks. that was very helpful. it made sense to me immediate. yeah, why am i trying to sight down the board when there is a built in straight edge in the strings? i've had troubled necks with every used guitar purchase. i'll either swear off used, get better at picking good necks, or include a plek in the cost. : )