Leo's legacy?

[bloodied_fingers]

I read that the Leo Fender did not want to make an s-type guitar (Legacy) with G&L because he had already covered that territory and that G&L (BBE?) introduced the Legacy only after Leo Fender's passing.

This led me to do some wondering and looking about a little and I'm wondering mostly about the S-500 and the Legacy. But this spills over to the Comanche somewhat and even little less to the ASAT style guitars.

It seems these changes all came after Leo passed away:

1. bathtub route
2. Legacy was added with 'traditional' single coil pickups
3. S-500, Comanche and Legacy bodies became all the same
4. 4-bolt necks
5. Tribute series
6. no bi-cut necks

I'm really not sure which ones were phased out before/after Leo's passing and I'd appreciate anyone who can set me straight or point to a comprehensive reference. thanks.

[Craig]

I read that the Leo Fender did not want to make an s-type guitar (Legacy) with G&L because he had already covered that territory and that G&L (BBE?) introduced the Legacy only after Leo Fender's passing.

This led me to do some wondering and looking about a little and I'm wondering mostly about the S-500 and the Legacy. But this spills over to the Comanche somewhat and even little less to the ASAT style guitars.

It seems these changes all came after Leo passed away:

1. bathtub route
2. Legacy was added with 'traditional' single coil pickups
3. S-500, Comanche and Legacy bodies became all the same
4. 4-bolt necks
5. Tribute series
6. no bi-cut necks

I'm really not sure which ones were phased out before/after Leo's passing and I'd appreciate anyone who can set me straight or point to a comprehensive reference. thanks.

Search the G&L Knowledgebase.
And, in case you have not read this post by Gabe, check it out: http://guitarsbyleo.com/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=8351

[bloodied_fingers]

Thanks Craig.

Well that presents a wholly different perspective on "G&L." That post makes the "Guitars by Leo" seem like a misnomer and it completely discredits the "Would Leo have wanted it this way?" sentiment.

In a nutshell; the ASAT and Legacy are the two most popular guitars from G&L (correct me if I'm wrong) and Leo Fender didn't want anything to do with either???

[Fumble fingers]

thats why you want to suround yourself with good people when you own a buisness , chalk one up for the guy's , Leo must of knew deep down they were right

[bloodied_fingers]

thats why you want to suround yourself with good people when you own a buisness , chalk one up for the guy's , Leo must of knew deep down they were right

agreed. It's sounds like its really a good thing people stopped only doing just the guitars Leo wanted, else there might not be a G&L still around.

And even though the phrase is utterly disingenuous I can understand the need for marketing hype.

[Ray Barbee Music]

ASATS were around before Leo Died. S bodies, Alnico pups, no.

[Elwood]

... S bodies...

Except for late model SC-3's (87-91) ,older S-500's (82-87ish),newer S-500's(88-now),
and the F-100 might not have single coils, but if your talking body ergonomics...they have an old strat feel like not much else.
The Interceptors (last incarnation) had alot of Stratocaster DNA in the design.
Invader,Rampage,Cavalier...
edit: (looked at my avatar) ...and the Skyhawks !!!

[bloodied_fingers]

ASATS were around before Leo Died. S bodies, Alnico pups, no.

they were around, but as I read it he really didn't want them.

... S bodies...

Except for late model SC-3's (87-91) ,older S-500's (82-87ish),newer S-500's(88-now),
and the F-100 might not have single coils, but if your talking body ergonomics...they have an old strat feel like not much else.
The Interceptors (last incarnation) had alot of Stratocaster DNA in the design.
Invader,Rampage,Cavalier...
edit: (looked at my avatar) ...and the Skyhawks !!!

I think its safe to say he definitely liked the S-type of shape.

It seems like after Leo many of them were 'homogenized' to the same body with the bathtub route and 4-bolt necks

[Ray Barbee Music]

3 bolt necks survived Leo by 6 years ish. I don't consider SCs or F-100s etc a real S. I'll give you the newer style S-500, was that as early as 88? My impression was it was more like '91.

[Elwood]

3 bolt necks survived Leo by 6 years ish. I don't consider SCs or F-100s etc a real S. I'll give you the newer style S-500, was that as early as 88? My impression was it was more like '91.

REally?
An 88 SC-3 is nothing but a Strat, I didn't realize we were sorta guessing at impressions.

Caveat for G&L newbs...do you own research, threads like this is how misinformation spreads.

I'm out.

[Ray Barbee Music]

Dale era and later S types, sure. Previous? Nah. I'm hardly a "G&L" newb, and I agree you should be out on this one.

[Elwood]

Caveat for G&L newbs...do you own research, threads like this is how misinformation spreads.

This is for everyone but Ray Barbee.

[Craig]

Dale era and later S types, sure. Previous? Nah. I'm hardly a "G&L" newb, and I agree you should be out on this one.

Hey Ray, just curious what time period you consider the "Dale era" and what is your definition of an S type?

[bloodied_fingers]

Caveat for G&L newbs...do you own research, threads like this is how misinformation spreads.

This is for everyone but Ray Barbee.

Threads like what? Where people ask questions and discuss when things were changed?

Research where?

So far this "newb" has been pointed to the a forums search facility that would, well, search more "threads like this" for the information.

Kind of a recursive problem. Maybe I could keep searching and finding this thread.

[Elwood]

Caveat for G&L newbs...do you own research, threads like this is how misinformation spreads.

This is for everyone but Ray Barbee.

Threads like what? Where people ask questions and discuss when things were changed?

Research where?

So far this "newb" has been pointed to the a forums search facility that would, well, search more "threads like this" for the information.

Kind of a recursive problem. Maybe I could keep searching and finding this thread.

My apologies bloodied fingers, I sorta saw that confusion in my intent coming.I should have said post, not thread...referring to Ray's certainty in his view.
I like that folks are looking back at G&L's founders intent and creations.


elwood

[bloodied_fingers]

Caveat for G&L newbs...do you own research, threads like this is how misinformation spreads.

This is for everyone but Ray Barbee.

Threads like what? Where people ask questions and discuss when things were changed?

Research where?

So far this "newb" has been pointed to the a forums search facility that would, well, search more "threads like this" for the information.

Kind of a recursive problem. Maybe I could keep searching and finding this thread.

My apologies bloodied fingers, I sorta saw that confusion in my intent coming.I should have said post, not thread...referring to Ray's certainty in his view.
I like that folks are looking back at G&L's founders intent and creations.


elwood

Thanks for clearing that up elwood and no worries - the Navy & Marine Corps left me with pretty thick skin

The lore and history of `guitardom` in general, and G&L specifically, is very interesting to me but unfortunately it seems like there is not a consolidated and verified source to get this information.

And now it seems like some of the best G&L historians are getting older and the information might just be lost when they pass on.

The knowledge-base is cool but forum software is an intrinsically bad system for storing authoritative information. This thread is a microcosm of that: the real truth is often buried by time and intermingled with conjecture, FUD, misinformation and off-topic chatter.

It would be awesome if there was an unofficial wiki. It seems like there would be enough members here who actually know this stuff to support creating a G&L wiki. Several pages could be devoted just to the life & times of Leo, Dale, George et al. Then pages for each guitar model with a history section, sound clips and images.

[KenC]

BF,

Try George Fullerton's book "Guitars by George and Leo" for a good overview of the company's history up through the early '00s, the transition from CLF Research/MusicMan to G&L, and a broad overview of the way each model evolved. Greg Gagliano's website is another great overview of how most of the models developed; it's mostly photos and descriptions, but you can piece together a lot of history from it. Those were my go-to sources when I was getting into these instruments.

Regarding Strat-type G&Ls: Leo didn't want to rehash his old designs from the Fender days, but it was what the market wanted. The first one to enter production was the S-500 (1982), which was followed by the original SC-3 (1982), Nighthawk (1983) and Skyhawk (1984). I have all four of these models, and can attest that they are very much "S-types". Some might argue that they don't have the controls aren't the same as a Fender Strat's, but to me that's a technicality. I've never heard anybody claim that a current Fender isn't a real Strat because the five-way switches weren't around in 1954. The S-500 and 'Hawks were designed as upgrades/updates to the earlier Fender models (e.g., separate control plates for ease of repairs), and the SC-3 started out as a stripped-down Nighthawk. For that matter, the S-S-S Interceptors were just Skyhawks with a different body shape.

Regarding bi-cut necks: It's true that these were phased out a couple of years ago by BBE, but for historical perspective the earliest G&Ls (up through mid-1982) didn't have them either. The early F-100, L-1K and L-2K models had skunk stripes.

Regarding Alnico pickups: G&L used them a couple of times in the '80s. The humbuckers in the Superstrats (Rampage, Superhawk and Invader) and the split P-types used in '85-'86 SB-1s were alnicos built by Schaller to G&L's specifications. IMO, what's new is that the recent Alnico models have come about through market demand rather than for production reasons.


Ken

[Ray Barbee Music]

I'd consider an S type to be the same size, shape, with belly cut and tummy cut. Others might consider it to be anything with two upper cutaways, including thin slab bodies, etc.

That doesn't make anyone holding either opinion a newb, or misinformation. However, I'll stand by my point that if someone thinks anyone who doesn't agree with them that a thin slab body with two upper cutaways is an "S type", then they should do as they said and "be out on this one".

I'd consider the Dale era to be the last few years before BBE bought the company.

And if I'm a newb, please remove the years-old sticky thread I wrote on setups in the tech forum, before these current boards even existed. Thanks.

Also Craig, if only sycophantic fan boys can post there, please add that to the forum rules.

[bloodied_fingers]

KenC, Thanks for the tip! I had forgotten about that website.

It does have a lot of good information.

[Craig]

I'd consider an S type to be the same size, shape, with belly cut and tummy cut. Others might consider it to be anything with two upper cutaways, including thin slab bodies, etc.

That doesn't make anyone holding either opinion a newb, or misinformation. However, I'll stand by my point that if someone thinks anyone who doesn't agree with them that a thin slab body with two upper cutaways is an "S type", then they should do as they said and "be out on this one".

I'd consider the Dale era to be the last few years before BBE bought the company.

And if I'm a newb, please remove the years-old sticky thread I wrote on setups in the tech forum, before these current boards even existed. Thanks.

Also Craig, if only sycophantic fan boys can post there, please add that to the forum rules.

Ray,

Well instead of toning it down like I asked you earlier, you managed to turn it up and now have gone over the line.

I don't see where anyone has called you or implied that you are a newb. I think you have mis-read some previous posts.
Members are entitled to their voice their opinions but "Participants are expected to treat others with respect, kindness, and consideration, including G&L and other
manufacturers. " You seem to have ignored this on many of your posts and then to call the members who do not agree with your comments "sycophanic fan boys",
you have offended many of our membership (me included). If you wish to remain a member here, you must abide by these rules immediately.

[Craig]

I read that the Leo Fender did not want to make an s-type guitar (Legacy) with G&L because he had already covered that territory and that G&L (BBE?) introduced the Legacy only after Leo Fender's passing.

This led me to do some wondering and looking about a little and I'm wondering mostly about the S-500 and the Legacy. But this spills over to the Comanche somewhat and even little less to the ASAT style guitars.

It seems these changes all came after Leo passed away:

1. bathtub route
2. Legacy was added with 'traditional' single coil pickups
3. S-500, Comanche and Legacy bodies became all the same
4. 4-bolt necks
5. Tribute series
6. no bi-cut necks

I'm really not sure which ones were phased out before/after Leo's passing and I'd appreciate anyone who can set me straight or point to a comprehensive reference. thanks.

Search the G&L Knowledgebase.
And, in case you have not read this post by Gabe, check it out: http://guitarsbyleo.com/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=8351

While doing some other research on the G&L Knowledgebase, I came across these posts which might be of interest:

S500s: 1984 vs. 1994 vs. 2004???
S-500 single coil size pickups on early 80's model
When and why did G&L switch to a four-bolt neck?
What is the new Tribute series which G&L announced in 2003?
My question would be WHY do G&L's all have a Bathtub Route?

Also, when Greg Gagliano and Gabe Dellevigne publish their book on G&L, which has been in the works for several years now, it will be THE definitive book on G&L.
Surely, it will be a must read by anyone interested in G&L instruments.

[bloodied_fingers]

Thanks Craig.