S-500 Frets

[xg5a]

Hello,
This is my first post here, since I am a new G&L owner.
I have been looking at G&L's for a long time, and finally pulled the trigger last week on a white USA s-500 on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT
It arrived today, and while the guitar sounds okay, the frets aren't so good. In fact, most are completely flat on top. Now, i'm new to G&L's, but the legacys and asat's that I played in music stores certainly didn't have completely flat frets. Most distressingly, the flat frets give the strings a strange sitar buzz, and the neck buzzes all over the place. It looks as though somebody tried to level the frets, and then stopped before the crowning them back into shape, although the seller assured me that the frets were level and exactly as they left the factory.

I was wondering if somebody could help me out a bit, and shed some light on this. Did I get a sour deal? Is this some sort of strange fret-finishing method that I don't know about?

I can post up-close pictures if those would help.
Thanks so muchn\,
Dave

[jazzrat]

Dave, I wish I had more to offer but my Legacy is the only G & L I've played. I'm sure more guys will chime in with thoughts.
The frets are certainly NOT flat on my '06 Legacy. Based on the sellers feedback and description I would have trusted him too, but it
does seem like somebody took a flat file to the frets and did not crown them. Can you get some clear close-up pics?
Might help the experts here compare with theirs and offer ideas.

[offplanetfilms]

That sounds like a very familiar story to me. My Legacy originally arrived with flattened frets ....I've just got it back today from my local guitar tech who dressed and re-crowned them. Now they resemble the close up photo's of NEW Legacy frets on ebay!
If they're flat... they've been either worn down or crudely dressed by someone. (I'd say the seller is feeding you BS by the spoonful!) ...If you pay a good guitar tech, he'll put it all right.

[xg5a]

Thanks for the information. I'll get some close-up pictures this evening. I'm thinking a fret crown would be the fix, too. I've done some fretwork recently (including 2 complete leveling and dressings that turned out 100% buzz-free), so maybe after a little practice/refresher on a cheap guitar I'll just crown them. They do seem to be level.
Thanks,
Dave

[MrRoundel]

That does sound rather odd. Being that the guitar has been around since 2004, and that it has suffered a few bruises elsewhere, it tells me it's probably been pretty well-played. The seller described the frets as having "some wear" here and there, which often translates in Ebay-speak to "needs some fretwork". Of course, in a perfect world, the seller would just say, "frets need attention". The statement about "some wear" may be about as accurate as the "near mint" to "excellent" condition report . I've seen a lot of those descriptions on Ebay recently. Yesterday I saw an auction for a guitar that had significant rust on all chrome, a few dings on the body, chrome chipping off knows, but overall minor wear. The seller called that guitar "excellent". Your guitar did not look even close to what most people would call "near mint". I'd say that even "excellent" is stretch.
My take on the auction: The seller gave just enough notice about fret wear so that he/she maintained a small fallback position, however, based on your claim, the description sounds quite "seller-centric". I'd challenge the seller on the guitar being quite far from "near mint". On a scale of 1-10, that guitar would be a 7.5-8.25, no more, so perhaps it's in "very good" shape. However, even that's debatable based on the fret wear. You got a decent deal on the guitar but if you have to do a re-fret, you'll certainly lose the benefit of your bargain. Get it checked out by a luthier. If the luthier says a re-fret is needed, try to send it back or get a credit for 75% of the refret price. If they can be sufficiently dressed, you might just have to suck up the fee. Obviously, IMHO. Good luck.

[xg5a]

Thanks for the replies...pictures are below. The frets are also sticking out a bit on the bottom of the neck, as pictured in the 2nd to last picture. They have this strange box shape to them, like the ends were never properly dressed when put in. It doesn't show in the pictures, but the fingerboard also looks as though it wasn't sanded with anything smoother than maybe 150 grit sandpaper. strange...

I sent the seller an email, and while he was kind of mean, he did offer to kick in $25 for a fret dress. He insisted that this is the way the guitar left the factory, and that if I want good fretwork, I should buy a suhr. ? The worst part is that I emailed him before I "bought it now", and asked specifically if the frets were level and good with no buzzes even when the action is low, and he said everything was great.

Honestly, though, if this is how the guitar left the factory, I'm a bit disappointed. My $100 Chinese SX strat has better fretwork. The odd thing is that I can see a bit of fretwear on top of the flat frets, meaning that the guitar was played a little bit after the frets became flat.

Other than the frets, though, the guitar is in really nice shape. He was actually very honest about the other dings, and even exaggerated them a bit. The guitar looks to be barely played...the pickguard isn't even scratched at all. The setup when it arrived was bizarre, though, as the pickups were flush with the pickguard and the action was a mile high. I do agree that the description on ebay, as well as all correspondence, has been very "seller-centric".

I don't want to give up on the guitar, though. My next step, I suppose, is to fix the frets...

[jazzrat]

Nice pics....they tell the story. Looks like it was leveled but not crowned.
Good news is...plenty of fret left to crown and get back in shape.

[MrRoundel]

It's a nice looking guitar, no doubt there. While the seller may not have intentionally misrepresented the condition of the frets, they are undoubtedly flattened out. Did the guitar leave the factory that way? Well, I seriously doubt it. Is the seller the original owner of this 6 year old guitar? If not, is he depending on what the person he got it from told him in his representation? If he is, he shouldn't be. But that's Ebay sometimes, eh?
What would worry me is that you say there is still string buzz after the frets have been leveled, correct? I don't see how that buzz will be eliminated without taking off more height somewhere on the frets. What will be left of them by the time it gets down to a buzz-less height?
I'll suggest again that you take it to a luthier so that you can go back to the seller equipped with a professional assessment of the existing frets. If the professional tells you that it needs more than a crowning, I'd consider sending it back to the seller, based on what you feel was a material misrepresentation. Good luck.

[jazzrat]

As flat as those are I'd say the buzz could be just because there is no "point" of contact or it's just a bad leveling job. At any rate, I agree a luthier evaluation would be a good
idea to either have it fixed or professional confirmation that it needs to be returned.

[xg5a]

One thing the pictures do not capture is the height of the frets. They're very high, definitely high enough to be completely leveled, if need be. I'm thinking most of the buzz is the strings contacting the fret on the back of the square, but also slightly touching on the front and buzzing. Sighting down the neck, no frets look unusually bright or otherwise non-uniform, which would be a sign of high or low frets. I think a leveling wouldn't take much material off at all, and then a proper crowning would take care of the rest. What does this sort of thing cost? I'm sort of inclined to do it myself. I've done a lot of fret work myself, including some complete levelings and crownings, but not on an instrument this expensive. Then again, I really don't want to be putting $100's more into this guitar, because budget wise its not possible.

There is one big disadvantage to returning the guitar, too. The seller charged me $50 shipping, most of which I'm sure he kept, and his return policy states shipping is non-refundable. Plus i'd have to pay probably another $20-30 to ship it back (i'm in PA, he's in CA), so I'd be out upwards of $70. I'd rather just fix the guitar. Of course, this lets the seller "get away with it", so to speak, which pains me too.

Also, the seller claims that he is the original owner. He sent me the certificate, as well as the original price tag and hang tags, and the un-filled-out warranty card. This makes it seem kind of likely that he's the original owner. Is there any way I can get this guitar repaired under warranty, since the warranty was never activated?

[MrRoundel]

As flat as those are I'd say the buzz could be just because there is no "point" of contact ...

That certainly does make sense.

[MrRoundel]

Is there any way I can get this guitar repaired under warranty, since the warranty was never activated?

That's doubtful, being that the guitar was made 6 years ago, and probably sold around the same time. Now, if the guitar sat around the dealer's store as a demo for a few years before it was sold, those frets could've gotten worn down and were subsequently leveled out before the sale. If the dealer sold it to the guy as a new guitar, then the seller might indeed think it came from the factory that way. That is the least likely scenario here, IMHO.

If you do the work yourself, I'm sure that you can forget about returning the guitar if the problem isn't fixed. I don't blame you for wanting to save money, but I don't think a fret level, crown and polish is any more than $75 today. John Wescott, the guy who did my refret on my '86 ASAT post a price of $50-60 on his website. Of course, he's here in California with me and the seller. Good luck.

[xg5a]

Well, I guess this has become more of an eBay issue. I really like the guitar, aside from the frets. I was considering paying somebody else to fix the frets, or buy some good tools to do it, since the seller had offered to put $25 towards it. When I emailed him back, though, he said "the offer has expired several days ago". I really don't want to have to leave him bad feedback, but he misrepresented the item, and now will not cooperate. Plus, he's been super self-serving, and shifty and elusive with his emails. But, am I overreacting?

There seems to be a fair bit of eBay guitar experience on this site. Could I solicit some opinions?

Aside from all of this nonsense, since the guitar has been around for a few days, and I'm getting used to it, I'm finding myself loving it. Thats even with the buzz, so I just can't wait to see what its like when its fixed!

[offplanetfilms]

That is a seriously beautiful guitar... it's definitely worth fixing up and keeping. I just scored another new USA Legacy myself, ...she hasn't arrived yet, but I scored at a similar price to yours. I'm bracing myself for a couple of similar fixing issues, but I'm truly over the moon about the bargain. (Particularly for Australia) ...Yes, I'll post pics when she arrives... Candy apple red, rosewood with white pickguard, black covers & knobs. Reminds me of a 50's soda shop decor!)

[MrRoundel]

... since the seller had offered to put $25 towards it. When I emailed him back, though, he said "the offer has expired several days ago". I really don't want to have to leave him bad feedback, but he misrepresented the item, and now will not cooperate. Plus, he's been super self-serving, and shifty and elusive with his emails. But, am I overreacting?

In my opinion you may be under-reacting. However, I do understand that in matters of Ebay deals, transacted over great distances, one must try to stay level-headed, and keep the desired result in mind.

If I were you, I'd contact the seller and tell them that you like the guitar, but that, based on his description, you didn't think that you'd need to spend more money to make the guitar playable. I'd then tell him that as much as you don't like leaving bad feedback for people on EBay, he's leaving you no alternative. If he didn't give you an expiration on his rather meager $25 offer, it would probably fall into what would be a reasonable time period in which to respond. Certainly, 3-5 days would seem reasonable to me. I suspect that he's feeling a bit more powerful because you can't reverse the Paypal payment at this point, as he's already got his money. I do think that you should contact Ebay and send along the email in which he agreed to pay $25 toward the work required, along with his unannounced retraction. Good luck.

[Jim P]

I think a leveling wouldn't take much material off at all, and then a proper crowning would take care of the rest. What does this sort of thing cost? I'm sort of inclined to do it myself. I've done a lot of fret work myself, including some complete levelings and crownings, but not on an instrument this expensive. Then again, I really don't want to be putting $100's more into this guitar, because budget wise its not possible.

Seriously, if you've done some fret work in the past, and if you have the proper tools, I would say to go ahead and do the work yourself if you feel comfortable enough with the work you've done in the past. It really isn't all that difficult. But, I can't stress enough why having the proper tools is extremely important.

From what I can tell in the photos, it looks as though you have more than enough height in the frets so that you could start with a very light leveling just to be certain that all the frets are level. Then, just crown and polish them as necessary. If you're unsure about the process, feel free to PM me, and I can give you some links for some very informative threads that show step-by-step processes.

I wouldn't think that this guitar would come this way from the factory, but one never knows for certain. Someone at the factory may have been in training or just had a bad day. If the frets were flattened from wear, I would think that the frets would be much more uneven than they are. In other words, one would think we'd be seeing some grooves or isolated wear, but that doesn't appear to be the case. The notion that someone may have leveled the frets without finishing the job appears to be the most likely, but this could've been by an individual owner or someone from the factory. Also, I doubt that you'd have warranty coverage after all this time, but it probably wouldn't hurt to write or call G&L to ask.

Nice looking guitar, by the way, and welcome to the forum!

[xg5a]

Jim, I'll definitely take you up on that. Truthfully, I trust myself to do the frets right more than somebody else. I've done it a couple of times on other guitars recently. The process you've outlined is exactly what I have in mind. I've always used a triangle file to crown frets, but I'm thinking I want to buy a fret crowning file for this job, just for safety and to make sure it comes out right. Do you have any recommendations?

If the frets were flattened from wear, I would think that the frets would be much more uneven than they are. In other words, one would think we'd be seeing some grooves or isolated wear, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Also, if I had taken a picture of the first couple of frets, you'd see very slight separate fret wear grooves. So I think you're right. Its not fret wear, but a lack of a crowning job.

I'm still thinking about the bad feedback issue. I'm thinking I'm going to email the seller one last time, and say that if he doesn't help me out to make me feel like I got a good deal, then I'm going to be forced to tell the truth and leave bad feedback, about how he misrepresented the item and wouldn't help. I feel like I'm probably underreacting, but then again, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't think I'm going to get my $25, but at least I can steer future buyers away from being lied to.

[yowhatsshakin]

Incidentally, this months Acoustic Guitar issue (June 2010) has a feature "DIY Fret Dressing" by Rick Turner on page 72. Lots of helpful tips on how to solve your problem.