~~~Legacy tremelo tuning~~~

[Craig]

the tuners are all wrong. the low should be the high e, the a tuner goes to the low e, the d tuner to the a, the g tuner to the d, and the high e to the g. having the high e tuner at the low e puts too much angle on the nut, and it will keep going out of tune, even if the nut is properly cut. i also don't understand why they put string trees with the graduated height locking tuners. it's idiotic.

COuld I do this by myself? Isn't it just a matter of taking the strings off, and taking off the tuners and putting them where they belong? Because if thats the case then it would save me from having to not have my guitar for 2 weeks, (yes, the people at the shop are very slow aswell).

As long as you feel comfortable doing this, I see no reason not to do it yourself.

Thanks for the clarification Craig.
So the high e and low E need to be swapped, then the d and the g .
I'm learning bit by bit too.

elwood

This is exactly how I would do the tuner swapping.

Once you get it all setup and operating as it should, please post after pics of the tuners and bridge.

It sounds like you are almost there!

[louis cyfer]

Wow you guys are good . Im just stumped as to why this sort of thing could happen at all? What would need to happen to get the tuners sorted out correctly, I'm going to take it in the shop today, and what exactly should I tell the guys there about the issue?
Craig, here it is:

i am sure craig will forward the custom built spec sheet along with the picture of the headstock to dave, and alex and ken have some explaining to do.

[ADYAPOOP]

Okay, So as Louis said, the tuners were misplaced wrong. So did what he said, and also reffered to Craig's picture above of his headstock, and matched it. However, I noticed that HIS washers underneath the tuners differ from mine.
This is his headstock : http://www.guitarsbyleo.com/GALLERY/Cra ... _5960s.jpg

and this is mine:




look how my washers at the top three strings are thicker, whats up with that? (if you have any clues) .. the rest of the pictures are below, and the new pics of the bridge level

[Elwood]

Looking good !
I'm still learning about the details of the different tuners etc. , so I can't answer that right away.
You've been working hard at this...good job

elwood

[ADYAPOOP]

Thx elwood, unfortunetaly that didnt solve the problem. When I push on the bar all the strings either go sharp or flat. When I pull on the whammy all of the strings still always go sharp. uuuuuggghhhhh ... It's so frustrating. The people at G&L SHOULD NOT ship out a guitar that has not been properly set up...

[Elwood]

Thx elwood, unfortunetaly that didnt solve the problem. When I push on the bar all the strings either go sharp or flat. When I pull on the whammy all of the strings still always go sharp. uuuuuggghhhhh ... It's so frustrating. The people at G&L SHOULD NOT ship out a guitar that has not been properly set up...

I hear ya. Well, with the tuners the way they were there it would be really tough to isolate other problems.
So your time spent was well worth it even it you haven't got it there yet.
If I come up with any good ideas you'll be the first to know.
elwood

[Elwood]

I would raise the bridge 1/8 of an inch (1/3 to 1/2 a turn counterclockwise on each hex head bridge post) just to see if it helps.

Is the nut glued in tight ? (just trying to eliminate things that would affect the tremelo return)

The nut slots might need to be smoothed a bit, does the low E slot look mis-shaped due to the extreme angle the string was at before?

Are the neck bolts (actually screws) tight? (again ,eliminating any possibility of slack)

If raising the bridge ( just a little) improves the 'pulling up /staying sharp' , then you've identified one problem .

all my best,

[ADYAPOOP]

I would raise the bridge 1/8 of an inch (1/3 to 1/2 a turn counterclockwise on each hex head bridge post) just to see if it helps.

Is the nut glued in tight ? (just trying to eliminate things that would affect the tremelo return)

The nut slots might need to be smoothed a bit, does the low E slot look mis-shaped due to the extreme angle the string was at before?

Are the neck bolts (actually screws) tight? (again ,eliminating any possibility of slack)

If raising the bridge ( just a little) improves the 'pulling up /staying sharp' , then you've identified one problem .

all my best,

hey elwood,..So I did what you recommended with raising the bridge 1/8 of an inch.. and it does seem to help the tuning a bit. WHen pushing down the E still goes sharp, while all the other strings are pretty good. But when im pulling every string still goes sharp. The neck bolts are good, the nut is glued in tight, and as far as I can see there is no mis shaped of the Low E nut slot.

[louis cyfer]

if they go sharp when you pull up, that means the bridge is not returning to zero position. that is an entirely uncommon occurrence with tremolos, a lot of people push slightly down after pulling up as to let the bridge zero itself. it sounds like the e slot in the low e does need work as well. time to take it to a good tech, this is probably beyond your current skill level (skill in trouble shooting that is), but do not go back to the store. they are idiots. also, ask the tech if you can stay and watch, so you can ask questions and have a better understanding.

[Craig]

if they go sharp when you pull up, that means the bridge is not returning to zero position. that is an entirely uncommon occurrence with tremolos, a lot of people push slightly down after pulling up as to let the bridge zero itself. it sounds like the e slot in the low e does need work as well. time to take it to a good tech, this is probably beyond your current skill level (skill in trouble shooting that is), but do not go back to the store. they are idiots. also, ask the tech if you can stay and watch, so you can ask questions and have a better understanding.

+1

And take a copy of this post and give to the tech so he/she will know the G&L specs: Current Factory setup for G&L guitars with vibrato bridges.

[ADYAPOOP]

I think I'd have to take it to those guys because I'm broke at the moment, but ill be sure to let them know it is their responsibility to have it setup as it was intended to, as I purchased the guitar through them.. thanks for all your help guys.I really appreciate it. I

[ADYAPOOP]

if they go sharp when you pull up, that means the bridge is not returning to zero position. that is an entirely uncommon occurrence with tremolos, a lot of people push slightly down after pulling up as to let the bridge zero itself. it sounds like the e slot in the low e does need work as well. time to take it to a good tech, this is probably beyond your current skill level (skill in trouble shooting that is), but do not go back to the store. they are idiots. also, ask the tech if you can stay and watch, so you can ask questions and have a better understanding.

also, how would I do the nut slot by my self? just the low E

[NickHorne]

Please excuse me for repeating my little diagnostic query which probably went unnoticed back on page 1:

Either leave the low E string off, or slacken it right off to looseness.
Now tell us what the other five strings do when you dive, and when you pull up.

It seems extremely likely that something relating to the low E is a major contributor to your problem.
Before filing your nut slot(s), which is irreversible and will require a replacement nut if it is not done right, PLEASE make this simple check.

And fiing nuts carries a significant risk of damaging your finish on the headstock unless you're very aware and careful, even if you have suitable materials available for masking off the vulnerable areas. And masking tape alone is NOT enough! The file will go straight through it in one sorry slice.

Nuts are cut with special files of various sizes in order to create the accurate slots for the various strings. The slightness of the filing required, as well as the care and patience involved, are surprising to anyone doing it for the first time.

You seem to have been adjusting a lot of adjustable things, when you are probably needing to focus on finding one, or at most two, key issues.

[Elwood]

Please excuse me for repeating my little diagnostic query which probably went unnoticed back on page 1:

Either leave the low E string off, or slacken it right off to looseness.
Now tell us what the other five strings do when you dive, and when you pull up.

This might be a worthwhile experiment , as long as you consider that the whole system will be sharp once you slacken the Low E, and you'll have to retune a few times before your back to a relatively tuned and tension balanced system.
There will be a bit more tension on the other five strings while you are doing this, so things won't be quite the same as
having it set up with 6 strings. If you have the time and want to experiment a bit, you might learn something.

It seems extremely likely that something relating to the low E is a major contributor to your problem.

I agree.

And fiing nuts carries a significant risk of damaging your finish on the headstock unless you're very aware and careful, even if you have suitable materials available for masking off the vulnerable areas. And masking tape alone is NOT enough! The file will go straight through it in one sorry slice.

Nuts are cut with special files of various sizes in order to create the accurate slots for the various strings. The slightness of the filing required, as well as the care and patience involved, are surprising to anyone doing it for the first time.

Excellent warnings,
Someone who does this alot has developed the muscle memory as well as the wisdom to tackle a job like this without touching the finish or the fretboard.

You seem to have been adjusting a lot of adjustable things, when you are probably needing to focus on finding one, or at most two, key issues.

I'd suggest we stay specific ; everything done so far has been to do just what you are suggesting .
1. Fixing the tuner order
2. getting the bridge plate parallel with the body
3. readjusting saddle height and intonation due the correcting the bridge plate
4. raising the assembly to check for imperceptible rubbing
( it'll be up to whoever set's it up to determine whether to lower the saddles now or to bring the assembly back down that 1/8" once the key issue (most likely the nut slot) has been fixed )

Nick is so right about how it takes the lightest touch when working on nuts.

Now that the Low E tuner is correct, showing you the angle that will work best for the Low E slot ,
a tech can properly file it for best performance.
If someone in the past filed the nut to "work" with the angle it was at before...that might just be sharp enough to stop the string from freely moving.
Unless the slot needs to be lowered, that's not going to leave much material directly behind the break angle,
and some enthusiastic filing could lower that slot quick.
And it's possible that too much material has been removed from behind the break angle for this nut to ever work
properly .

I would recommend playing it ( we all need practice, eh?) while saving up for the best tech you can find.
Maybe G&L would even send you a new nut of your choice of material if this left the factory 'not right'.
I'll leave that to you and Craig et al to determine and resolve.

my best,elwood

[ADYAPOOP]

Okay, so I have took off the low E, waited a bit for ze tension to be balanced. And I dived a few times, and it was perfectly in tune.... BUT when I pull, the A D G B go sharp while the high e staying in tune.

[NickHorne]

Thanks.
I'll be thinking about this one today!

[NickHorne]

Could I ask one more question, to help complete my picture of what's going on?
How far (approximately) are you pulling up? A semitone, or a few?
Thanks.

[louis cyfer]

Could I ask one more question, to help complete my picture of what's going on?
How far (approximately) are you pulling up? A semitone, or a few?
Thanks.

pulling up all the way should give a minor third on the g string and a minor second on the high e.

[louis cyfer]

Please excuse me for repeating my little diagnostic query which probably went unnoticed back on page 1:

Either leave the low E string off, or slacken it right off to looseness.
Now tell us what the other five strings do when you dive, and when you pull up.

It seems extremely likely that something relating to the low E is a major contributor to your problem.
Before filing your nut slot(s), which is irreversible and will require a replacement nut if it is not done right, PLEASE make this simple check.

And fiing nuts carries a significant risk of damaging your finish on the headstock unless you're very aware and careful, even if you have suitable materials available for masking off the vulnerable areas. And masking tape alone is NOT enough! The file will go straight through it in one sorry slice.

Nuts are cut with special files of various sizes in order to create the accurate slots for the various strings. The slightness of the filing required, as well as the care and patience involved, are surprising to anyone doing it for the first time.

You seem to have been adjusting a lot of adjustable things, when you are probably needing to focus on finding one, or at most two, key issues.

the low e is extremely unlikely to cause the strings to go sharp after pulling up. it is very unlikely that the nut would cause that at all. it would cause it to go flat. diving down would cause going sharp.

[ADYAPOOP]

Could I ask one more question, to help complete my picture of what's going on?
How far (approximately) are you pulling up? A semitone, or a few?
Thanks.

well, when I took off the low E, there was way more tension on the strings (ovbiously), so the bridge was way lower than when it had six strings on, so I pulled as much as I could ( which wasn't much really), and it still caused all of them to go sharp.

[NickHorne]

It seems the low E is an isolated problem when diving; it sticks in its nut slot and goes sharp when the bridge comes back up.

I had hoped that the low E might also be responsible for at least some of your pulling-up symptom (again sticking in its slot, reducing the available string tension to bring the bridge back down).

But it seems there are two separate problems at work, since the pull-up-stays-sharp symptom remains when the low E is taken out of the equation.

The low E is very likely a nut issue. And even once the nut is optimised, you may find it can be good practice to leave enough string, before locking, to take a full turn around the low E peg, but wind it above the hole, rather than below. This can fix a common problem of Fender-type headstocks, where the the low E takes a very extreme angle at the nut unless wound in this way.
Too steep an angle very often leads to the E6 getting caught at the nut.

But the sharpness after pulling up has to be in the bridge system. if there is no rubbing of block, springs etc against the body, then there are really only the pivots left for suspects.

This ought to be a warranty issue. But your dealer doesn't inspire confidence. Perhaps Craig could advise further?

[ADYAPOOP]

It seems the low E is an isolated problem when diving; it sticks in its nut slot and goes sharp when the bridge comes back up.

I had hoped that the low E might also be responsible for at least some of your pulling-up symptom (again sticking in its slot, reducing the available string tension to bring the bridge back down).

But it seems there are two separate problems at work, since the pull-up-stays-sharp symptom remains when the low E is taken out of the equation.

The low E is very likely a nut issue. And even once the nut is optimised, you may find it can be good practice to leave enough string, before locking, to take a full turn around the low E peg, but wind it above the hole, rather than below. This can fix a common problem of Fender-type headstocks, where the the low E takes a very extreme angle at the nut unless wound in this way.
Too steep an angle very often leads to the E6 getting caught at the nut.

But the sharpness after pulling up has to be in the bridge system. if there is no rubbing of block, springs etc against the body, then there are really only the pivots left for suspects.

This ought to be a warranty issue. But your dealer doesn't inspire confidence. Perhaps Craig could advise further?

thanks for the prompt response, Nick. So as far as the Low E, i should wrap it once around the peg ABOVE the hole, the pull tight and lock it?

I will definitely bring the pictures of the headstock with the tuners misplaced and show them, so maybe they can do something about fixing the nut slot, since they did SELL me the guitar.

[NickHorne]

I have often found it helps to wind the low E this way, and not just with trem systems. I bend all the strings quite a bit, and find this helps with stability on non-trems too (with Fender-type headstocks).
But it will probably be too late to "pull tight" once you have wound the string around the post. I would just (without the string) first turn the tuner so that the hole is in line with the direction of the strings, and then insert the E string in the hole. Pull it through as far as you can, and then pull it back by around 3/4" (or almost 2cm), then lock the tuner. Now wind so that the string wnds upwards on the peg instead of down. I find it is always good to keep a little back-tension on the string, with my free hand, whilst winding; this helps keep the wrap from having any looseness.
This may well help your low E issue, but its nut slot may need skilled help too.

[Craig]

It seems the low E is an isolated problem when diving; it sticks in its nut slot and goes sharp when the bridge comes back up.

I had hoped that the low E might also be responsible for at least some of your pulling-up symptom (again sticking in its slot, reducing the available string tension to bring the bridge back down).

But it seems there are two separate problems at work, since the pull-up-stays-sharp symptom remains when the low E is taken out of the equation.

The low E is very likely a nut issue. And even once the nut is optimised, you may find it can be good practice to leave enough string, before locking, to take a full turn around the low E peg, but wind it above the hole, rather than below. This can fix a common problem of Fender-type headstocks, where the the low E takes a very extreme angle at the nut unless wound in this way.
Too steep an angle very often leads to the E6 getting caught at the nut.

But the sharpness after pulling up has to be in the bridge system. if there is no rubbing of block, springs etc against the body, then there are really only the pivots left for suspects.

This ought to be a warranty issue. But your dealer doesn't inspire confidence. Perhaps Craig could advise further?

thanks for the prompt response, Nick. So as far as the Low E, i should wrap it once around the peg ABOVE the hole, the pull tight and lock it?

I will definitely bring the pictures of the headstock with the tuners misplaced and show them, so maybe they can do something about fixing the nut slot, since they did SELL me the guitar.

If you want to handle this as a warranty issue (that would be my suggestion), you will need to contact the selling dealer. See G&L's Support page.

[ADYAPOOP]

hey Craig,
I will bring it into the store. Do you think i should show them the picture of how the tuners were previously placed , or not ? thx

[Craig]

hey Craig,
I will bring it into the store. Do you think i should show them the picture of how the tuners were previously placed , or not ? thx

Yes, show them those and tell them the whole history of the issue you had when you first received the guitar and then this last time that
you had them attempt a setup (twice?) and concluded that weather was the cause of this guitar not returning to pitch after using the vibrato.
If they cannot (well not) get it operating the way it should be, request that they return it to the factory for further inspection and resolution under warranty.
Also, I suggest that you ask them for a loaner G&L Legacy while yours is being worked on. BTW, who is the selling dealer?

[ADYAPOOP]

BTW, who is the selling dealer?

Right, thank u for the advice, and the dealer is KAOS MUSIC CENTRE. I will print the photos of how the tuners were previously placed, and explain to them the issues with the guitar. Thanks again for all of the help

[Elwood]

BTW, who is the selling dealer?

Right, thank u for the advice, and the dealer is KAOS MUSIC CENTRE.

That explains it

kidding of course,
after reading the review below (from google reviews), I'm thinking the less time the guitar is there the better...you might end up with some cheap tuners installed with no explanation, while some unscrupulous worker gets some new Schallers


"I purchased a fairly expensive guitar amplifier from this store. The customer service I received throughout the process was excellent and communication was prompt both pre-buy and post-buy/return. When I received the amp I noticed that the some of the original tubes had been removed and replaced with cheaper ones. Also, someone had tried to screw the back wood panel into the wrong place causing extra screw holes. This amplifier comes with a nice foot switch to turn the vibrato on and off - they did not send me the original foot switch - they sent me a cheap piece of crap Roland switch worth about $5. And finally the vibrato function of the amp did not work properly. I don't usually write reviews about anything but in this case I had to because it cost me $150 to ship the defective "not as advertised" amp back to them and all I got from them was a "sorry you didn't like it". It's not that I didn't like it - it wasn't what I paid for. So, great customer service before I bought, quick shipping, item received was not as described (defective actually) and a large cost to return it. Quick refund on their end as well. "

If they cannot (well not) get it operating the way it should be, request that they return it to the factory for further inspection and resolution under warranty.

The folks at the factory are probably the best ones to get it right once they know there's a problem.

which ever way it goes..wishes of less chaos coming your way, hehe
elwood