~~~Legacy tremelo tuning~~~

hello everyone

I custom ordered a legacy HB and got it in July. Without using the tremelo, the guitar was terrible in keeping tune. However, I recently purchased big bends nut sauce, and I must say it has helped with the tuning, without using the tremelo, of course.
I put the nut sauce in the nut slots, saddles, and string tree. But the damn thing wont stay in tune whilst using the tremelo. It goes completely sharp , all six strings.


Do any of you guys have advice to fix this issue that has been buggin' me since the day I owned this beauty. thanks guys

Last edited by ADYAPOOP on Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

99 times out of 100, if it stays sharp after using the tremelo, the nut slots aren't filed large enough for the strings.

The tension between the tuners and the strings isn't completely relieved when releasing the tremelo bar. The nut sauce helping the situation makes sense.
Unless your hearing a 'ting' sound when you use the tremelo (springs rubbing on something or misaligned bridge posts)
I bet it is the nut.
Does the action of the bar/bridge assembly feel and sound completely smooth ?

Your right ; the weather wouldn't matter unless your nut is made of wood..LOL

600 grit sandpaper wrapped around a string that's a touch smaller than the gauge you use should get you there.
If you don'y feel comfortable getting the break point right as you open the slots a bit, find someone who is, maybe someone besides the guys who blame it on the weather.

elwood

99 times out of 100, if it stays sharp after using the tremelo, the nut slots aren't filed large enough for the strings.

Yep. The weather

I should add the other thing to watch for is if the front bridge plate edge catches the back lip of the pickguard.
Raising the bridge posts equally 1/32"-1/16" can make the difference if that's happening .

elwood:

so you think it's the nut , hmm.. Would you be so kind to write what I should do in steps?
hahaha.. thanks (if you can)

elwood:

so you think it's the nut , hmm.. Would you be so kind to write what I should do in steps?
hahaha.. thanks (if you can)

I'd :
1. make sure it's not the bridge plate contacting the pickguard to be sure it's the nut.
2. if you detune a string slightly so you can gently pull it from the nut slot,it should freely raise from the slot.
That might help you identify the problem area(s).

If I was to do all the slots I'd put a plastic spacer (credit cards,toothbrush,etc) under the back of the bridge,
and pull the strings away from the nut . I've detached them from tuners, I see the guys at the factory have a time saving alternative:


Are you a handy guy with good eyes ( or an illuminated magnifying glass ) ?

You want to be relaxed and patient, it doesn't take much filing...and you don't want t go too low or create an angle forward of the break point.

feeling comfy?

that looks complicated, I do have good eyes, but have never done anything like this before. The bridge plate doesn't seem to be touching the pickguard, it's close, but it's not touching it.

This looks like a good overview;

[youtube]ausMhUcnHsE[/youtube]

hello everyone

I custom ordered a legacy HB and got it in July. Without using the tremelo, the guitar was terrible in keeping tune. However, I recently purchased big bends nut sauce, and I must say it has helped with the tuning, without using the tremelo, of course.
I put the nut sauce in the nut slots, saddles, and string tree. But the damn thing wont stay in tune whilst using the tremelo. It goes completely sharp , all six strings.
The people at the store I ordered the guitar through is pretty lazy actually. I told them about it the first week I bought it, and they said its the weather and that the nut is not worn in yet. So a few months later, still the problem, even with the big bends nut sauce. So it can't be the nut. So i took it in for a setup 2 weeks ago, and it came back exactly the same, after I specifically told the dudes there that the guitar goes sharp after slightly using the tremelo. So I called them again and the guy said its 'THE WEATHER'...I find this hard to believe because the humidity in my room is 48%, so it shouldn't be that, and my guitar is always in the case when I'm not making love to it.

Anyways, do any of you guys have advice to fix this issue that has been buggin' me since the day I owned this beauty. thanks guys

Did you happen to change the string size up from 10's? If so, the nut string slots will need to be enlarged for the larger string guages.

Also, I think you might check the setup first to make sure it's at factory specs. See Current Factory setup for G&L guitars with vibrato bridges

You might look for a good tech (at another shop) who can do a proper setup on a G&L instrument. Where are you located? Maybe someone here
is near you who can recommend one (or two).

Best of luck.

I had a similar problem with my Tribute Comanche - the plastic nut was no bueno.
Had a tech cut me new one from bone and the difference is incredible. Stays in tune with trem use and the open strings sound much, much better.

It's worthwhile learning to do a setup, it's helped me understand my guitar better, but maybe still find a good tech and have them check your work. Once you've ruled out the other things listed above, if it's still not staying in tune then you can talk to the tech about cutting you a new nut.

thanks for all the replies and suggestions.

I have some more updates on the guitar :

When I ONLY push down on the tremelo arm, the only string that goes sharp is the Low E. The rest of them are pretty stable. I have used nut sauce in all the slutes, trees, and saddles.

Okay, now when I PULL the arm , all of the strings go sharp about 40cents (half a semi tone).

My bridge is set at the right level, 3.175mm (2/16th inch).

Could it be that the low E is the major culprit ? and that tension held at the nut throws the whole system out a tad?

The only other thing that comes to mind is tuner windings, but that doesn't make much sense since improper windings would show itself as the notes going flat, not sharp.
If you have some lighter gauge strings (just change out the low E and maybe the A) , that could tell you if those slots are the problem without getting out the files and sandpaper .

How about some well focused pics ? ...nut, tuners,saddles, and tremelo cavity . There are some sharp eyes here on the board that might see something outta whack.

elwood

Could it be that the low E is the major culprit ? and that tension held at the nut throws the whole system out a tad?

The only other thing that comes to mind is tuner windings, but that doesn't make much sense since improper windings would show itself as the notes going flat, not sharp.
If you have some lighter gauge strings (just change out the low E and maybe the A) , that could tell you if those slots are the problem without getting out the files and sandpaper .

How about some well focused pics ? ...nut, tuners,saddles, and tremelo cavity . There are some sharp eyes here on the board that might see something outta whack.

elwood

I'd also like to see a side view of the bridge showing the pivot bolts and felt washers.

For posting photos, see Tutorial: Posting photos.

thanks for all the replies and suggestions.

I have some more updates on the guitar :

When I ONLY push down on the tremelo arm, the only string that goes sharp is the Low E. The rest of them are pretty stable. I have used nut sauce in all the slutes, trees, and saddles.

Okay, now when I PULL the arm , all of the strings go sharp about 40cents (half a semi tone).

My bridge is set at the right level, 3.175mm (2/16th inch).

if it goes sharp when you pull up, it's not the nut for sure, it is the bridge catching somewhere and not settling back into zero position. the nut would cause it to go flat from pulling up, and go sharp from diving.

right, that makes sense. Okay , well I am going to take a bunch of pics soon and post them here.

Here are some pictures:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2crv8fo.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/110jhcj.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/14sntdz.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/27ziucy.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/10f5hfl.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/293u64y.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/amsgif.jpg


http://i43.tinypic.com/29ntdhe.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/ngodqc.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2yvo191.jpg

**when diving the Low E goes sharp half a semi tone while the other strings are pretty stable..
**when pulling, all of the strings go sharp half a semi tone.

Also, I uploaded them 1024x768 and used the code to post it on the forum, but when I submitted it, it said the pics needed to be 1024 wide, which they are, so I don't know why it wouldn't let me post. So sorry about that, If you right click on them, and click 'open link in new tab' it won't close the forum page. thanks guys!

You say that "when diving" the low E goes sharp.
Is it sharp according to a tuner? Or just compared to the other strings?

Please could you tell us which it is?

There is an important difference!
If E6 is just sharp compared to the others, then it's most likely the others have gone flat with the dive, and not come back up because of some stiction somewhere.
The E6 going sharp to a tuner implies a problem specific to that string (which could hang up the system when pulling up).
We're looking for clues to piece together here, and all info is important for the process of elimination.

And of course there may be more than one thing going on here.
But these things are all solvable! Guitars do this kind of stuff to us sometimes, even really good ones.
Best
Nick

Here are the photos inline ( the seventh photo was not included because it was not resized correctly):













NOTE: The seventh photo was not resized correctly. It is 1600px x 1200px.

I wish you had a picture of the high E saddle. The saddles look high to me and it probably needs to have the saddles lowered and possibly a neck shim but it is hard to tell from the picture. In the one picture it looks as though the high E saddle is against the bridge post on that side. Need a side view from that side. I also don't see the felt washers.-- Darwin

more pics :
I tried to get a good shot of the felt washers, but these are the best I could do, thanks for looking guys I really appreciate it. ANd thanks so much Craig for posting the photos on here..

also, Darwin, the high E saddle is very close to the bridge post, but it is not touching it.

I do see the felt washers and I don't think that the High E saddle is hitting the bridge pin but the high E seems to be too far forward. I also think the saddles are a bit high. I would still like to see a side view of the High E saddle. This guitar is fixable.It is just a matter of finding out what isn't right. -- Darwin

Things I'm noticing:

The Low E tuner ferrel washer is upside down , that could be an issue . And * see below


The tremelo claw screws could be tightened a bit, finding that balance is a sort of two steps forward , one step back
experience. detune a little, tighten the screws a bit , retune ...check the bridge plate for tilt, repeat.
Can you see any rubbing of the wood around the springs, against the ground wire, or maybe the whammy bar insert nut?

A picture of the Low E nut slot from above at a slight angle would be helpful.
Also one of the whole headstock , sides and top .
* If these are staggered tuners, they might have been installed out of order maybe ?

Nice pictures by the way...they really show the brilliance in these things.

elwood

Last edited by Elwood on Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

also, Darwin, the high E saddle is very close to the bridge post, but it is not touching it.

Curious, what gauge is the high e string?

the high e is a 10. And I will get you those pics momentarily

Things I'm noticing:

The Low E tuner ferrel washer is upside down , that could be an issue . And * see below


The tremelo claw screws could be tightened a bit, finding that balance is a sort of two steps forward , one step back
experience. detune a little, tighten the screws a bit , retune ...check the bridge plate for tilt, repeat.
Can you see any rubbing of the wood around the springs, against the ground wire, or maybe the whammy bar insert nut?

A picture of the Low E nut slot from above at a slight angle would be helpful.
Also one of the whole headstock , sides and top .
* If these are staggered tuners, they might have been installed out of order maybe ?

Nice pictures by the way...they really show the brilliance in these things.

elwood

~~~~the locking tuners were instsalled in the factory as I ordered them when I chose the guitar specs. And there isn't any rubbing of the wood around the springs,wire, or whammy bar.

You say that "when diving" the low E goes sharp.
Is it sharp according to a tuner? Or just compared to the other strings?

Please could you tell us which it is?

There is an important difference!
If E6 is just sharp compared to the others, then it's most likely the others have gone flat with the dive, and not come back up because of some stiction somewhere.
The E6 going sharp to a tuner implies a problem specific to that string (which could hang up the system when pulling up).
We're looking for clues to piece together here, and all info is important for the process of elimination.

And of course there may be more than one thing going on here.
But these things are all solvable! Guitars do this kind of stuff to us sometimes, even really good ones.
Best
Nick

hello NIck,

yes, when diving, after I check my tuning with a tuner. And only the Low E goes sharp half a semi tone. The other ones are good, sometimes the others go flat a tiny bit. When pulling on the bar, EVERYTHING goes sharp about half a semi tone.

I do see the felt washers and I don't think that the High E saddle is hitting the bridge pin but the high E seems to be too far forward. I also think the saddles are a bit high. I would still like to see a side view of the High E saddle. This guitar is fixable.It is just a matter of finding out what isn't right. -- Darwin

http://i41.tinypic.com/302nfiu.jpg


http://i40.tinypic.com/rk99pd.jpg


these are the pics of the high e saddle from side view.

the tuners are all wrong. the low should be the high e, the a tuner goes to the low e, the d tuner to the a, the g tuner to the d, and the high e to the g. having the high e tuner at the low e puts too much angle on the nut, and it will keep going out of tune, even if the nut is properly cut. i also don't understand why they put string trees with the graduated height locking tuners. it's idiotic.

the tuners are all wrong. the low should be the high e, the a tuner goes to the low e, the d tuner to the a, the g tuner to the d, and the high e to the g. having the high e tuner at the low e puts too much angle on the nut, and it will keep going out of tune, even if the nut is properly cut. i also don't understand why they put string trees with the graduated height locking tuners. it's idiotic.

I think you'll see once the tuners are put right (with the washers right side up ) and with the right tension balancing your
strings (trem claw adjustment), you'll have the guitar working better than it has ever.


The guys at the factory should have caught that.
The good news is that you might just need an open ended wrench for the tuners and screwdriver for claw ,
no files necessary.

Alright. Elwood: Could you guide me through step by step in adjusting the trem claw?

ok I detuned the guitar a bit, tightened the 2 screws about two whole turns , but I'm trying to tune it and it keeps slipping out of tune :/

maybe it just needs a few minutes in setting in

ok I detuned the guitar a bit, tightened the 2 screws about two whole turns , but I'm trying to tune it and it keeps slipping out of tune :/

That's the two steps forward , one step back thing that I mentioned. If you place a 1/8" space under the rear of the bridge plate,
(maybe next time) that will minimize the time spent retuning.
You'll just have to go back and forth , maybe tuning the strings a hair sharp , knowing that the next string is going to make it drop...if that makes sense.
The break angle on the E string due to the wrong staggered tuner being there should make a huge difference once fixed.
It's creating undue tension at the nut . The tremelo won't work right until that's addressed.
You'll have to tune it all over again (this time using a plastic spacer to save time) once you've got those tuners
in the right place.

waters boiling...gotta make some coffee,
elwood

I have turned over the washer now, the bridge is the correct height from the body, after tiny bit of tightening of the 2 screws, but now when I push down on the wammy all the way down, then let it come back up, I check my tuning and the Low E is half a semi tone sharp, and the A,D,G,B are flat, but the high E remains stable. Now, when I pull the whammy everything still goes sharp, the Low E, A,D,G go a little bit more sharp than the b and e ( if that's helpful to you guys to know)... anyways, appreciate it as always

LOL I am a total n00b at this...What am I trying to accomplish by adjusting the trem claw? Do I want the string tension to match spring tension? If so, how do I do so? And how could you explain it to a n00b like me?

Do I want the string tension to match spring tension? If so, how do I do so? And how could you explain it to a n00b like me?

Normally I'd advise a noob to see a good tech, but you've been very attentive ..and there's nothing like knowing your ax ;
so let's continue:
Yes, your matching the string tension to the springs, it will be matched when you are tuned up AND the bridge plate is level.

The washer was the first thing I noticed , and it could have been creating slack in the system. I figured if someone installed it wrong, who knows how well things were tightened, on that tuner and the others.
That's when I noticed the misplacement of the tuners. Follow louis' advice to get them the way they should have been installed.
You'll find the trem action to be smoother as well as staying intune.

Once you've done that , checked for bridge plate tilt (again)...things should get easier from there..
A minute or two of playing using the tremelo will help settle things in ...though it's not always necessary , it will show if any problems in the system are present.

elwood

Okay I have two questions:

The misplacement of tuners that Louis is talking about I dont quite understand. What does he mean when he says "the low should be the high e, the a tuner goes to the low e, the d tuner to the a, the g tuner to the d, and the high e to the g"?

...

my next question is what is bridge plate tilt and what am I checking for?

thanks you

Okay I have two questions:

The misplacement of tuners that Louis is talking about I dont quite understand. What does he mean when he says "the low should be the high e, the a tuner goes to the low e, the d tuner to the a, the g tuner to the d, and the high e to the g"?

...

my next question is what is bridge plate tilt and what am I checking for?

thanks you

He means that there are specific places for each tuner, you'll notice a slight difference in height of the hole where the string
goes through the post. The Low E and A should have the hole higher than the D and G, the D and G higher than the B and high e.
* see the image I just posted *
The guys at the Factory ( or your guys at the shop?? ) got these all mixed up.
Louis has a sharp eye and I trust his evaluation.


What I mean by 'tilt' is the amount the bridge plate is deviating from being level with the body .
Flat is great, a couple degrees angled back is acceptable...but not ideal. Angled forward as it was means the springs need a touch more tension (as you have started to address ).
You might find that once you have the tuners in the right order and the springs adjusted properly, you will need to set
saddle height and intonation again...but let's not think about that until you have fixed the tuner order.

I'll take a pic of my Skyhawk tuners for illustration, you'll see the break angle at the Low E on mine is much less than how
yours is presently.
(google "staggered tuners" in the meantime )
The first guitar I had these on (15 or so years ago) it was new to me too .

elwood

Last edited by Elwood on Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

before I disappear for an hour or two ( gotta play) -here's an image that illustrates what your guitar should look like after you get the tuners sorted:



elwood

If the tuners were installed wrongly, that will almost certainly have been part of your problem.

It would help the detective thought-process if you could tell us what happens if you leave the bottom E6 string off altogether.
What do the other five do now?

the tuners are all wrong. the low should be the high e, the a tuner goes to the low e, the d tuner to the a, the g tuner to the d, and the high e to the g. having the high e tuner at the low e puts too much angle on the nut, and it will keep going out of tune, even if the nut is properly cut. i also don't understand why they put string trees with the graduated height locking tuners. it's idiotic.

louis is correct about the tuners being installed incorrectly and this is likely to be the cause of your problem.

before I disappear for an hour or two ( gotta play) -here's an image that illustrates what your guitar should look like after you get the tuners sorted:



elwood

Elwood is showing the Sperzel locking tuners which have three different height posts. However, the tuners OP has are Schaller locking tuners.
Schaller tuner posts have two different posts, three of each type. The string hole for the low E, A, and D are located higher on the post,
while the B, G and high E have the string hole located lower on the post. Also note that the top of the post on each type is different.

Here is my Legacy SH which also has the Schaller locking tuners, correctly installed:



Now look at OP's tuners and you should be able to see the difference, only the A and B string tuners are installed correctly:



My recommendation to OP is to return the guitar to the selling dealer and show them the issue. Ask them to correct the tuner setup and then do
a complete setup (including saddle adjustment to set the proper intonation of each string) and insure the proper operation of the tremolo under
G&L's warranty (so no cost to you).

I would be interested in seeing a copy of the Custom Specification Sheet which should be included with the COA. Please email me a photo copy of it.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the clarification Craig.
So the high e and low E need to be swapped, then the d and the g .
I'm learning bit by bit too.

elwood

Wow you guys are good . Im just stumped as to why this sort of thing could happen at all? What would need to happen to get the tuners sorted out correctly, I'm going to take it in the shop today, and what exactly should I tell the guys there about the issue?
Craig, here it is:

the tuners are all wrong. the low should be the high e, the a tuner goes to the low e, the d tuner to the a, the g tuner to the d, and the high e to the g. having the high e tuner at the low e puts too much angle on the nut, and it will keep going out of tune, even if the nut is properly cut. i also don't understand why they put string trees with the graduated height locking tuners. it's idiotic.

COuld I do this by myself? Isn't it just a matter of taking the strings off, and taking off the tuners and putting them where they belong? Because if thats the case then it would save me from having to not have my guitar for 2 weeks, (yes, the people at the shop are very slow aswell).

COuld I do this by myself? Isn't it just a matter of taking the strings off, and taking off the tuners and putting them where they belong? Because if thats the case then it would save me from having to not have my guitar for 2 weeks, (yes, the people at the shop are very slow aswell).

Yes, not sure how this would affect future warantee work, but I'd hate to be without my axe for two (more)weeks.

As best I can tell this would fix it:
(quoting myself)
"the high e and low E need to be swapped, then the d and the g ."

Saddles and intonation will need adjustments after , things that are good to know how to do.
It is your decision whether to wait and have someone else do it , or to proceed your self.

Craig might have some advice.
I'm glad it seems like your getting real close to have your Legacy in top form.

elwood

great , ok, I will wait to see what Craig has to say. I always adjust the saddles and intonation myself, I do it for my friends too.