Metal Pickguards Observations & Looking For Other's Thoughts

[efudd]

I finally found a NOS crinkle metal guard for my '88 ASAT, maple bod, RW neck. It definitely cut the hum, not 100% but it made a real difference. It also changed the sound noticeably and in a way I don't like. I preferred the plastic guard that was on it when I bought it used. With the metal guard it sounded more compressed, less sparkly, a bit darker, fewer overtones, smoother but less interesting. A bit more 80's, more over-wound distortion pickup, more Mesa than Fender. With the Plastic guard it sounded more open, sparkly, twangy, harsher but more nuanced, more traditional Fender. Mind you it's subtle and it's hard describes these things w/o over emphasizing, but I clearly hear it.

For the test I left the guards unscrewed and played a minute and slid them in and out under the strings. Pure nickel strings 10s, pickup heights set as per G&L manual (best sound IMO) and I used two homebrew amps a 5C1 and 5F1 in this case through a G12-30 Anni for the extra range, straight in. The 5C1 uses Edcor iron and is pretty revealing, the 5F1 is crazy good and I know it well. Played back and forth for about 30 min. And the day before when I first installed the guard I heard the difference right away, so I wasn't looking to do a silly experiment.

Beats me, I'm glad I found the guard and restored the ASAT as Leo made it. But I think I'll be playing it with the plastic guard. I'll need to play around more besides in the house and through more amps before I'm 100& sure which I prefer, but I'm pretty sure of what I just heard.

BTW shouldn't a metal guard or any guard with shielding underneath be grounded? Were the original G&L metal guards connected to ground? I tried this with a bit of wire in a screw hole with a touch of paint scraped inside the taper and an alligator clip to the bridge. I didn't hear a sound difference but I did hear a very tiny touch of the highest noise in the hum get knocked off. Very tiny. Still, what's the point of a metal guard if it's not grounded?

Anyone want to discuss this? Anyone have similar / different observations?

[sirmyghin]

The old guards were aluminum, they are non ferrous, so they will not effect the sound of the guitar. I did a stint with a steel blank on it and heck it didn't even make a difference. To get the guard to act as sheilding, yes you should ground it. This sonic difference is likely due to your eyes, not your ears. When grounded it may change the capacitance of the system slightly, differences in capacitance are the reason 2 identical guitars can sound different to the ear. Some folks out there go through lengths to tune the capacitance of their guitar to resonate with the cable. But then you need very specific cable lengths, the whole deal.

[Craig]

Check out this post, which is from long time G&L Historian, Gabe D. (aka GPD): pre-BBE ASAT vs. '07 ASAT Special: Differences?
There are a couple of references to the effect of the metal pickguard.

Hope this helps.

[blargfromouterspace]

I recall reading an article where Bill Lawrence talks about the effect of different metals used as a telecaster bridge mount. Something about eddy currents and high end roll off. If I find it I'll post it here.

Did you notice a difference between the plastic pick guard and NO pick guard at all?

[efudd]

I'm glad Gabe D agrees with me, that's a pretty authoritative article. I've been around guitars and amps for 30 years, paid my dues and earned my ears. I know what I'm hearing. Leo was playing around with alu guards in the '50s, years ago I had a bud that owned a Mary Kay with a gold guard. It would have been a giant p.i.t.a. trying to A-B that one, and it never would have occurred to me to do it, but Leo was definitely looking for a way to mitigate single coil hum from early on. Any shielding that has a worthwhile effect will likely affect the highs - I remember when everyone was taking the covers off their PAFs. What I'm hearing, a loss of openness and sparkle, can definitely be attribute to a loss of highs.

Those anodized start guards got ugly fast from wear and I'm guessing Leo gave up on them for that reason and not because people didn't like the sound. He returned to them with some serious determination at G&L and I'm just curious if I'm the only ASAT owner who's A-B'd the guards and decided Leo had it wrong sound-wise. First time I ever disagreed with Leo - though, honestly, I still have no idea why anyone would ever need 3 pickups

Can anyone from G&L explain the logic behind not grounding the metal guards to the control ground? Or maybe they are and I should do it?

I still need to play around with this some more, and will test it with no guard too. I want to try it through some bigger amps and try it out on friends. Find some youngsters with their full range still intact.

Edit: BTW I understand Al is not ferrous could it be a damping effect on the top?

[sirmyghin]

If anything it would eliminate a damping effect, but any waves that have gone in those directions aren't going anyway near the pickups either way. Considering these waves aren't what the pickup uses it might change feel of the body, but not much else. As pickup covers on humbuckers make miniscule (approaching nil) difference (aside from the slightly higher gradient between the 2 sets of pole pieces w/ slugs farther than they might normally be) I find it difficult to say that the field is going to be affected in a significant manner by anything not directly in the way of the field where it matters (above the pickup).

If the pickups are mounted to the guard not the body the pickup may vibrate in a slightly different fashoin (as to what it vibrates in unison with) but these relative deflections are so small that they would not be significant to the field disturbance.

As stated, if you ground the pickup you will increase the capacitance of the system, which if bringing it away from resonance in terms of the electronics and cable interplay, will make it seem duller and less lively, the opposite effect could also occur. A while ago we have a guy play 2 legacy's and one was noticably hotter and more 'it' than the other, this is also a case of capacitance of the system at work. Capacitors aren't known for terribly high tolerances.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

I recall reading an article where Bill Lawrence talks about the effect of different metals used as a telecaster bridge mount. Something about eddy currents and high end roll off. If I find it I'll post it here.

Did you notice a difference between the plastic pick guard and NO pick guard at all?

Researching previous discussions on shielding G&L guitars I tracked down related comments made by Bill Lawrence in case anyone is/was interested:

http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/ForTeleLovers.htm

Also, here is a post Bill made on a telecaster forum:

"I see there is quite some confusion about the Tele bridge base plate. Everybody tries to explain the reason for this baseplate with only one function, but this baseplate has, in reality, 3 different functions:

A. Ferromagnetic functions,

B. Electrodynamic functions

C. All metal plates provide extra shielding.

#1 -- Only the steel baseplates corresponds to function A, B, and C.

#2 -- Brass, copper and aluminum baseplates have no ferromagnetic functions, and therefore, only correspond to function B and C

#3. Alloys of the 300 series stainless steels have neither ferromagnetic nor electrodynamic functions and therefore, only correspond to function C.

Function A

Leo Fender used copper-plated steel baseplates on the Tele bridge pickup to stabilize and to increase the magnetic force of the relatively weaker Alnico 3 slugs. The ferromagnetic steel plate increases the inductance of the coil ( like increasing the number of turns on the coil). The steel baseplate also transmits from the steel bridge mount via the steel mounting screws some of the body vibrations into the pickup, resulting in that typical Tele twang. As a negative, this is also the cause of microphonic squealing at high volume levels.

Function B

Baseplates made of steel, copper, brass or aluminum are the cause of eddy current interference. Eddy currents shift the resonances toward the lows, resulting in a fatter, more pleasant tone, especially in the bridge position. If you don’t want to increase the inductance of the coil and the magnetic force of the magnets, aluminum and brass baseplates are ideal to fine tune the tone of single coil pickups. These baseplates can be very effective on traditional single coil pickups with alnico slugs, but on many different designs, the result can be disastrous. Also, the thickness of the baseplate is very important -- if the plate is too thin, the effect is very little, but if the plate is too thick, you may end up with a muddy pickup. For excellent results, keep the thickness of the plate between 1/32” and 1/16” and make sure that the plate is firmly attached to the pickup.

Bill Lawrence
http://www.billlawrence.com"
Original post:
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/archive/inde ... 49607.html

[asphalt-abate]

I agree completely with efudd. I don't know the physics behind it but I know I had the same results when I swapped out a plastic pickguard for a tone-guard aluminum pickguard on my ASAT Special. My tone became less thick and more focused. My impression was that my tone had become more telecaster like on the bridge pickup. I switched back to the plastic guard because I like the richness of the large mfd's, its what makes the Special "special". Not that the toneguard pickguard was bad, it looked wonderful on my guitar but it wasn't the sound I was after. I wonder if its the combo of the soft maple body and the aluminum guard that made the early ASAt's sound so good and somewhat unique. I remember listening to a song which featured several guitar gurus. As soon as Carl Perkins launched into his solo on his G & L Broadcaster I knew immediately that I was listening to a Broadcaster, not a tele, not a Gretch, not a Rickenbaker, definately not a Les Paul, just a good ole G & L.

Tom

[Ken Baker]

It makes a difference. I've shielded my share of basses and can hear the difference. Some more than others, but it's there.

http://www.bassesbyleo.com/images/g&l_t ... cavity.jpg
http://www.bassesbyleo.com/images/whs_sb2/copper5.jpg
http://www.bassesbyleo.com/images/whs_s ... dtube3.jpg
http://www.bassesbyleo.com/images/whs_s ... guard1.jpg

Ken...

[Boogie Bill]

Okay Ken, I'll play FWIW.

I had my old 1975 Gibson Les Paul '55 Special Re-Issue sheilded back in the late Seventies, early Eighties. The luthier used carbon-conductive paint throughout the routed areas; under the pickguard, and under the P-90's pickups "soapbar" covers; and additional copper foil in the control cavity. It did minimize some of the noise. But only some.

Audibly, there was a very, very slight loss of high end. Insignificant to me.

And certainly insignificant to any patron listening in whatever bar I was playing it it.

But though it may be insignificant, if I were to have another LP Special, I would probably have it sheilded.

And then I'd get a Rocktron Hush!

Bill

[Ken Baker]

Okay Ken, I'll play FWIW.

Emphasis is mine.

That is really very important. The value of shielding will vary a lot with the player and the environment where he/she plays. Whether or how well it works is a technical issue. But value; that's human.

Ken...

[Boogie Bill]

Okay Ken, I'll play FWIW.

Emphasis is mine.

That is really very important. The value of shielding will vary a lot with the player and the environment where he/she plays. Whether or how well it works is a technical issue. But value; that's human.

Ken...

EXACTLY. I don't mind the hum of single coils with my Legacys and S-500s, even with my high gain Mesas, but it drives some people crazy. If you are recording, and noise is an issue, then moving your guitar in relationship to your amp can help you find a "null" point where noise is minimized. Eliminating fluorescents, neons and unsheilded cheap dimmers really help. And then there is help from outboard processing. And you can do all that--and some players will still be horrified with the noise.

Good point, Ken!

Bill

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

Okay Ken, I'll play FWIW.

Emphasis is mine.

That is really very important. The value of shielding will vary a lot with the player and the environment where he/she plays. Whether or how well it works is a technical issue. But value; that's human.

Ken...

EXACTLY. I don't mind the hum of single coils with my Legacys and S-500s, even with my high gain Mesas, but it drives some people crazy. If you are recording, and noise is an issue, then moving your guitar in relationship to your amp can help you find a "null" point where noise is minimized. Eliminating fluorescents, neons and unsheilded cheap dimmers really help. And then there is help from outboard processing. And you can do all that--and some players will still be horrified with the noise.

Good point, Ken!

Bill

Also consider the effect of 60-cycle hum on the listening non-players around. That extra noise can do all sorts of things to perception no matter how well the playing is.

[Tundra]

Hello! I've a '86 Asat with plastic pickguard and its fine with me. But the question I have is on the 80's S-500, I've one with mahogany and would wonder if I changed the metal pickguard would the tone be noticible. The S-500 does sound different but I don't mind that. I guess I could try it myself but be a matter of finding one that will fit with no modification. Has anyone replaced their 80's S-500 to plastic?

[willross]

For me, there is no turning back. It made my S-500 virtually noiseless. I've yet to try a 500 Dlx, so I'll reserve any other judgements.
Cheers!

[Elwood]

Has anyone replaced their 80's S-500 to plastic?

The closest experience I have had is by replacing a Comanche plastic guard with a
thick steel version.
The Steel guard darkened the overall timbre noticably(but looked reeeeal coool !),
and the Z3's are already a little dark .
I went back to the plastic , it's noticably lighter ( that steel one is a beast).

I'd prefer the metal , I'd recommend it for a bright sounding ax or if you can keep the highs in the mix with
changing caps, playing with all the other knobs...etc.

elwood

[NickHorne]

I do believe the whole answer is in the Bill Lawrence "Tele lovers" link further back up this thread.
I personally like the sound of .015 (or thereabouts) aluminium foil under the guard of lighter-pup'd guitars, it just sweetens the top in a way I like, while removing a useful amount of noise.
It may be better with light-wound stratty pups than with chunkier Special-type ones, and in any event is absolutely personal.
It seems to have been part of CLF's tweak toolkit for a long time. We can experiment until we are satisfied...

[westsideduck]

I'm not a Tele guy, I prefer the darker sound of the ASAT with the metal guard on my 91. As far as grounding the guard, I've never removed it from my ASAT but all of my early S-500s' have a spot ground off where you pinch the wire between the plate and body. And you know, a BIT of hum adds to the vibe of the single coil pickup, I wouldn't want to remove it 100%.

[Tundra]

I got into Pickguard Heaven and they do list 80's S-500 and do not mention metal so I'm thinking its plastic. Maybe 3 or 4 ply. Will also be on a look out for NOS stuff. My opinion for whats its worth is, the hum is part of the tone.. at least for live playing. It probably could pass for studio work as long as its not too loud. I've read somewhere that SRV liked the cheap radio shack coil wire. Anyway its interesting the use of aluminum versus plastic.