Strange hollow ringing noise - Tribute Comanche

[patricks]

Hi all,
I have a problem with a strange, hollow-sounding ringing/buzzing noise when I play notes on the E6 string from about the 7th fret upward and the A and D strings, from about the 9th fret upward. It's particularly bad at the 12th fret, at which point it sounds something like a bad reverb or almost like a ring modulator. It's noticeable when playing acoustically; I can't say whether it's noticeable when amplified cos I record direct into a USB interface.

I've had this problem for a while now and I've been trying to troubleshoot it myself to no avail. Here are the specs:
Guitar: 2012 Tribute Comanche
Neck relief: ~ 0.010"
(I don't have a proper gauge, but with a capo on the 1st fret and the E6 string fretted at the 22nd fret, a business card inserted under the 8th fret moves the string very slightly, so the relief is a little less than 0.0125")
String height (measured at the 12th fret on the E6 string): 6/64"
(I have the action set high because I play without a pick and dig in fairly hard with the right hand)
Tremolo height: 2/16" (stock height)
Strings: Dunlop heavy core, all strings tuned a half-step down (A = 415Hz)

At first I thought it might be subtle fret buzz, but it happens even when there's no relief in the neck whatsoever. I haven't tried setting the saddles any higher yet, because I don't want the string height to be much bigger and it gets harder to intonate with the saddles set higher.
Next, I thought the trem springs might be resonating, as the spring on the bass side touches the side of the spring cavity. I wrapped some electrical tape around the ends of each of the springs, but this made no difference.

In my internet wanderings, I found a single post that sounded similar: http://line6.com/support/thread/79297 In this case, it turned out to be that the part of the string between the ball and the bridge was resonating. I'm totally aware of the dangers of internet "research", though, so if this is crap, feel free to point it out

Any help would be great!
Cheers
Pat

[louis cyfer]

that sounds like the saddle screws are not both touching the bridge plate and are vibrating in the threads. a little loctite blue and proper tension on the saddle screws, and making sure the saddles are flat. a lot of people tilt the saddles in the direction of the radius, and that will cause this.

[patricks]

Ah, thanks

The tilted saddles thing makes sense, I have noticed that I'm prone to doing that.
Now I just need to remember where I put my loctite...

[Boogie Bill]

And if you can't find the Loc-Tite, you can use a tiny dab of your better half's clear nail polish. Works great, and most women probably have a bottle of Sally Hanson clear in their make-up kit. And it's cheap, if you need to buy your own! And it breaks free easily when you need to make an adjustment.

Bill

[louis cyfer]

And if you can't find the Loc-Tite, you can use a tiny dab of your better half's clear nail polish. Works great, and most women probably have a bottle of Sally Hanson clear in their make-up kit. And it's cheap, if you need to buy your own! And it breaks free easily when you need to make an adjustment.

Bill

that works too.

[patricks]

Oh, sweet! Thanks for that, I'll give it a shot.

I won't use it for the bolts on my motorcycle, though

[patricks]

Quick question - is there likely to be any problem with removing one or more of the intonation springs? To get the low E to intonate properly, the spring is almost crushed against the back of the plate. The intonation for the G is pretty squished, too. If removing the spring is going to cause problems, I'll look for shorter springs but if the guitar will be OK without 'em then I'll remove them and see whether that makes a difference.

[sirmyghin]

>Epic brain malfunction <

[louis cyfer]

No, it shouldn't cause any issue removing a spring, you just need to adjust the claw appropriately to hold the bridge in the proper position. Amount of springs will affect the overall feel of the trem, but as long as the trem is level (tension in springs balances tension in strings) the amount of strings is irrelevant. The tension in a spring is proportional to its displacement. I like 2-3 springs, depending on the stiffness of the spring in particular, or the bridge on the guitar.

he is talking about the intonation spring behind the saddle.

i would cut that spring shorter, as you need some tension so the saddle doesn't move. i would look into why the saddle is so far back, high action, or hard pressure when you play?

[sirmyghin]

No, it shouldn't cause any issue removing a spring, you just need to adjust the claw appropriately to hold the bridge in the proper position. Amount of springs will affect the overall feel of the trem, but as long as the trem is level (tension in springs balances tension in strings) the amount of strings is irrelevant. The tension in a spring is proportional to its displacement. I like 2-3 springs, depending on the stiffness of the spring in particular, or the bridge on the guitar.

he is talking about the intonation spring behind the saddle.

i would cut that spring shorter, as you need some tension so the saddle doesn't move. i would look into why the saddle is so far back, high action, or hard pressure when you play?

Gotcha, I was wondering why he was calling them intonation springs. Bit of a brain fart there . Yeah, I would clip those. It takes some pretty heavy strings to drive those saddles back though, so I agree with Louis in evaluating the cause.

[patricks]

Cool, thanks - totally understand about the brain fart

I've got it quite far back for both those reasons, my string height is a little higher than stock and I do press reasonably hard when I play. The Heavy Core low E is 0.048", so I don't think that's hugely thick

[patricks]

Quick update.
This morning, I:
- Put nail varnish on the saddle height grub screws
- Tightened the screws holding the trem block to the bridge plate
- Snugged up the truss rod a bit less than 1/8 of a turn (I checked the neck relief after I did this and it was still adequate)

I tuned the guitar back to pitch between each of these adjustments, but after each one the ringing noise still persisted. I've done as much as I can do now, so I'm putting in a call to my local tech as soon as I finish writing this

[Miles Smiles]

Is the noise noticeable on your recordings?

If yes, forget my post.

If not, did you already check, if the noise is because of the tremolo springs? Just put some stripes of rubber foam inside the springs to damp them!

[patricks]

I record direct and haven't got an amp, the noise is noticeable when I record, though.
I've tried damping the trem springs by wrapping the ends in electrical tape and that didn't help. The posts I read that recommended that method said that it was effective, but I'll try some foam as well in case the un-wrapped portions are still resonating

Edit - just got back from the tech's place. We replaced the heavy core low E (48) with a standard-construction D'Addario 49 and that changed the tone a bit but didn't remove the ringing noise. I'm going to replace the pickup height springs with surgical tubing and see whether that makes a difference. The knob on the push-pull pot was a little loose, so I'll investigate that next.
We tried it through my tech's amp and the ringing noise isn't as obvious through an actual amp so I may just have to live with it.

[louis cyfer]

i would suggest posting a recording, it would be much easier ti help.

[patricks]

Hey, thanks for sticking with me on this.
Here's a link to a short audio clip - the noise comes across more as a whistling sound in this recording, but that's only cos I was using my little portable recorder:
I'm playing a little more forcefully than I usually do, too, just to make the noise stand out. It's noticeable to me at lower playing volumes, but it wouldn't have been apparent on the recording otherwise.

I'm going to try replacing the pickup height adjustment springs with surgical tubing today, to see whether that makes a difference.

[louis cyfer]

that recording is with a mic. now do one with plugging the guitar in, i want to hear the difference it makes. it definitely sounds like something is rattling at this point.

[patricks]

I think it's fret-related - I'll get to that in a sec.

Here's the "amplified" clip - I haven't got a real amp, so this is recorded using Guitar Rig 4 and a Tweed Deluxe amp and cab sim:


The clip above shows the problem at its worst - volume pot at 9, treble at 7, bass at 8; all dials on the Tweed Deluxe sim at noon. I spent some time with different bass/treble settings and different amp sims, though and the good news is that I can almost dial it out, there are just a few settings where it's terrible.

My tech said yesterday that it's probably the combination of heavier strings, higher action and lower tuning that's causing it and I'm inclined to agree. I did notice, though, that when I put a capo on everything changes. When I fret a note at the 9th fret on the A or low E strings, I can hear the ringing noise as clear as a bell. When I put a capo on the 9th fret, the noise is almost inaudible - the major difference, though, is that with the capo on, the note is a semitone higher in pitch than when I fret the note with my fingers.
I think that, when I'm fretting the notes, I'm not putting enough tension on the string for it to clear the next fret, so I'm getting a bit of "1st fret buzz".

If that's the case, could a fret dress go some way to solving the problem?
Other than that, I spose my options are:
- live with it, knowing that I can go a long way to dialing out the noise
- change my strings (lighter), tuning (back to A = 440Hz) and string height, then try to be a little less heavy-handed with my right paw

Man, I hate troubleshooting...

[Boogie Bill]

Next string change, make sure all of the tuner bushing nuts are SNUG. Just don't over-tighten them--you could crack the headstock.

Try a piece of foam rubber or cloth under the strings at the headstock behind the nut. Sometimes...

Bill

[patricks]

Thanks, Bill

I did tighten the tuner bushing nuts last time I changed the strings and the tech loosened all the strings and checked them yesterday, too. I'll give the foam rubber trick a try, thanks!

[louis cyfer]

I think it's fret-related - I'll get to that in a sec.

Here's the "amplified" clip - I haven't got a real amp, so this is recorded using Guitar Rig 4 and a Tweed Deluxe amp and cab sim:


The clip above shows the problem at its worst - volume pot at 9, treble at 7, bass at 8; all dials on the Tweed Deluxe sim at noon. I spent some time with different bass/treble settings and different amp sims, though and the good news is that I can almost dial it out, there are just a few settings where it's terrible.

My tech said yesterday that it's probably the combination of heavier strings, higher action and lower tuning that's causing it and I'm inclined to agree. I did notice, though, that when I put a capo on everything changes. When I fret a note at the 9th fret on the A or low E strings, I can hear the ringing noise as clear as a bell. When I put a capo on the 9th fret, the noise is almost inaudible - the major difference, though, is that with the capo on, the note is a semitone higher in pitch than when I fret the note with my fingers.
I think that, when I'm fretting the notes, I'm not putting enough tension on the string for it to clear the next fret, so I'm getting a bit of "1st fret buzz".

If that's the case, could a fret dress go some way to solving the problem?
Other than that, I spose my options are:
- live with it, knowing that I can go a long way to dialing out the noise
- change my strings (lighter), tuning (back to A = 440Hz) and string height, then try to be a little less heavy-handed with my right paw

Man, I hate troubleshooting...

go to a different tech. that is a rattle, not a fret buzz.

[patricks]

Cool, thanks. We've only got one guitar tech in Davis, but there'll be others close by in Sacramento so I'll start checking out who'd be good.

[patricks]

Tried changing the pickup height strings for surgical tubing and the rattle's still there. I tried Bill's suggestion of damping the strings at the headstock and it didn't take away the rattle, but it tamed some of the wayward harmonics, so I think I'll get some pipe cleaners and make that a permanent addition.
I'll let you know when I find a tech and they trace the rattle

[Miles Smiles]

Strange, must be something near the pickups. On a guitar with cheap tuners I had a rattle caused by one of the tuners, the rattle was never heard through the pickups and it stopped while I was touching that tuner.

But this must be something else. Is the rattle always hearable in the recording, regardless which in which position the pickup selector is?

[Boogie Bill]

One other thing I thought of...make sure you have some positive tension on the truss-rod nut. If you have relaxed the tension, the nut might be loose and cause some vibration. Check it and make sure it is at least snug.

And God forbid there should be something wrong with the rod itself. You might try playing a chord that will make it buzz and have someone put a little pressure on the truss rod nut. You'll want to apply pressure down the axis of the neck--not L/R torque.

That's about all I got.

Good Luck!

Bill

[patricks]

Thanks Miles and Bill,

The noise is less audible with the pickup selector at some positions, but it's always there to some extent. I'll check the truss rod tonight, there's no free play in the nut so I'll put some pressure on it down the axis of the neck and see what that does

Cheers
Pat

[Philby]

I had a loose fitting pick guard on my ASAT semi-hollow Tribute that caused the kind of rattle you describe. When I took it off I found that 2 or 3 screws had stripped their holes leaving the pickguard free enough to resonate. Probably left the factory that way.

This might be a pain, but try removing the pickguard from the guitar body with the electronics still attached. Tune the guitar back up and see if the resonance is gone. If it has then the pickguard or something attached to it is causing the rattle. I can also recall having a particular Seymour Duncan pickup that needed really stiff mounting springs to stop it rattling against the pickguard.

Stray rattles and resonances are a bitch to track down sometimes.

[Elwood]

This might be a pain, but try removing the pickguard from the guitar body with the electronics still attached. Tune the guitar back up and see if the resonance is gone. If it has then the pickguard or something attached to it is causing the rattle.

Stray rattles and resonances are a bitch to track down sometimes.

You might find that allen wrench the tech at the factory couldn't find after lunch (recalling a recent thread).LOL

It took me a while to find the rattle on my L-5000 bass. It ended up being the key handle had loosened from it's post. Some clear thick superglue was the fix...but it drove me nuts as I couldn't narrow it down until the third or fourth examination.
I'm sure your patience and persistence will be rewarded ,
keep at it ...soon the only fretting you'll do will be the best kind of fretting
( unfettered and on a G&L )

elwood

[Miles Smiles]

It ended up being the key handle had loosened from it's post.

Sorry, but what is the key handle on a bass guitar?

[Elwood]

It ended up being the key handle had loosened from it's post.

Sorry, but what is the key handle on a bass guitar?

I struggled with the terminology, never described that part before;

The cloverleaf part of the tuner handle had loosened from it's post,just enough to rattle but otherwise you wouldn't noticed the slight play it had.
not the string post (which is usually the post we talk about on tuners).

elwood

[patricks]

Some great new ideas, thanks guys!
I've had the pickguard off a few times since I bought it and the screws all seat nicely (no stripped threads), but I'll try taking it off again and if the rattle's gone with the guard off I'll put some foam strips under the guard around the edge.
I've had a cursory look at the tuning keys, Elwood, but like you said it took a few checks to notice yours so I'll have a closer look

[Elwood]

a bizarre but reasonable thought I had would be to play the most offending frequency
as a recording through a speaker that you could place a soft cotton cloth over and use that to
vibrate the guitar . That would allow you to listen and observe from many angles.
Increase the volume a little and the rattle just might become an audible resonance that is found easier.

( reminds me of searching for vacuum leaks in a carwith a small hose to the ear )
...that could help too ...never tried it with a guitar.

just a wacky thought...happy hunting !!

elwood

[patricks]

Interesting idea, I'll give it a shot!

[patricks]

Just got the guitar back from the second tech, so I'm reviving the thread (is there a zombie smiley?). Learned a few things:

1) There definitely is a buzz/rattle. We couldn't find where it's coming from, though. Added extra foam to damp the trem springs some more, taped over the intonation springs, removed the grub screw that keeps the trem bar in place, no luck.
2) Part of the problem really is me. I tried a couple of other guitars, with different body woods, pickups, action and bridges, both acoustically and amplified and I could still identify a similar noise on them, too. So, part of the noise that's related to the normal harmonics generated by steel strings, but then there's definitely another buzz/rattle contributing to it
3) The noise isn't as bad when playing amplified, so I'm going to do more of that (I'll either fire up the recording software when I play or get a little practice amp)
4) Changing my setup changes the quality of the sound - doesn't get rid of it, but makes it easier to live with. When I got home, I dropped the bridge down by 1/32" and it changed the quality of the noise so it was less noticeable.

Now for the questions...
Can strings buzz against the saddles? After playing around with it at home, the buzz seemed most prominent over the bridge when playing the open low E. I'm wondering whether the string might not be seated properly on the saddle.
How about the ball ends where they seat in trem block? I don't think this one is as likely, but I might try putting some electrical tape around them and see what that does.

I'm also wondering whether something's rattling against something else inside the pickguard. I'll try taking it off again, re-tightening the strings and see whether that solves things.
Apologies for the long post!