Schaller Locking Tuners Retrofit Issues

[Greenblues]

FIVE strings on my Legacy are now wound up around new Schaller M6 Locking tuners...BUT the high E-string is still stock. WHY? Years ago a sudden impact broke the guide-pin which has stayed lodged in there ever since. At the time, the tuner was still functional. All I had to do was rotate it back into position and tighten the nut, so I didn't worry about it but I never thought this problem would come back to haunt me.This weekend I plan to see a repair guy about this, but otherwise my 'mileage is varied' so far:

• -The G-string is much more stable, but the low-E still comes up a bit sharp though not as much as before. I'm going to have the nut replaced and properly filed for my string gauge too. Last time I had that done was four years ago for 10-46 strings. Now I'm using 10.5-48, but would that really make much of a difference?
  
  -These tuners have a much lower profile that the older ones; so low that there seemed to be barely enough clearance to thread the string through, especially for the low-E. Maybe the set I got off eBay is made for a thinner headstock? I heard they make these with different post heights, but there was no info about that here:
  
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/360466870195?ss ... 1497.l2649
  
  -It could be my imagination, but the guitar sounds darker, now. Unplugged, it almost gets that underwater sound you hear when the guitar is touching a wall, window or wooden table. Or do I need to change my strings for the second time this month?

-

[darwinohm]

One thing to make sure of when installing the Schallers is that usually there are two different post lengths for the 6 tuners. There are normally 3 shorter post and 3 longer although I have seen 4/2 combo. If you have the 3/3 set, the longer posts should go on the lower 3 strings and the shorter on the high 3 strings (closest to the end end of the headstock). The shortest post should always be on the high e string. They do not stick up above the headstock very much and are designed so they can be used without string trees. I am referring to the 6 in line models so I hope the 3/3 isn't confusing but is referring to the post height. I hope this helps. I think if you carefully use a very sharp point (like a dental pick) to elongate the hole beside the broken pin on each side you may be able to pry the broken pin upward. Even if the hole becomes slightly elongated, do the elongation on each side of the pin 90 degrees to the plane of the string and it will not be a problem. This is fixable--Darwin

[meowmix]

I bought my locking tuners at Stewmac
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guit ... -Line.html

I think you should get the gold ones. (j/k)

Read the reviews. These will fit G&Ls or at least most of them.

Even better, read schematics from http://schaller-electronic.com/hp121089/Startseite.htm

Hard to say what might help you, but taking it to a tech sounds like a good idea to me.

[Greenblues]

Cheers, Darwin.

I did notice a very slight difference in the post heights after installing them...so I'll probably re-install. Also, I noticed some markings on the tuners that look like little bars:

"I" x1
"III" x2
"IIII" x3

The stock G&L tuners had these markings, too. But there was no correlation or discernable pattern I could see.

Re the high-E tuner with the broken pin, I tried using a baby pin to get it out, but it just bent the pin. Fortunately my local repair guy says he can fix it for about 4000 yen ($50.)

[louis cyfer]

remember, with locking tuners you want to pull the string tight before locking, and the string should go around the post no more than a 1/4 turn. so even if the whole is low to the headstock, there should be plenty of clearance. as darwin said, some come with 3-3 some 4-2 and some 2-2-2- different height posts, and some come with adjustable post height.

[Greenblues]

Cheers, Louis.

I guess than that those bar markings are for the post heights (except the stock set also have various markings and are all the same height.)

Stupid question, but should I be pulling the string all the way THROUGH the hole?

[louis cyfer]

Cheers, Louis.

I guess than that those bar markings are for the post heights (except the stock set also have various markings and are all the same height.)

Stupid question, but should I be pulling the string all the way THROUGH the hole?

indeed, you pull the string all the way until tight, and then lock it. that is the reason for locking tuners, no complete windings around the post, the strings can't slip on each other, like they do when there are several wraps around the post. that feature is the reason for having locking tuners, otherwise they are not better than regular tuning machines.

[MJ Slaughter]

I put those same tuners from the same seller on my Legacy Special just a couple of weeks ago. When I first strung it up and played with the tremolo I was having trouble with the low E string going flat. I loosened the string, unlocked it, reset the string and it has been fine ever since. The tuners do sit lower than I expected. The first pic is my G&L, second pic is my USA Strat with Fender branded Schaller tuners. Both heads are about 14 mm thick.

[Greenblues]

Good to know! That is certainly reassuring.

Last night I juggled the tuners, and it looks like I have a 3/3 set. After re-threading the strings, it's definitely much more stable, AND I think I like the sound better with these tuners. It sounds like they are putting back some of the warmth the guitar lost after I put a Callaham tremolo block down there. Of course, I'm also experimenting to find the best bridge set-up for the Gotoh Power Springs I put into the guitar, so the additional resonance it could be a combination of those elements.

Has anyone noticed that the strings are easier to bend with fewer windings?

[Greenblues]

One week and $50 later, the last of the new tuners is in the guitar, and the guitar is staying in tune much better now!

I'm very happy with the stability, but I'm hearing a lot of "pings." These seem to be coming from the bridge. A little bit of pencil lead made it go away for a while, but is there any other lubricant or applicant anyone can recommend as a more effective solution?

[louis cyfer]

One week and $50 later, the last of the new tuners is in the guitar, and the guitar is staying in tune much better now!

I'm very happy with the stability, but I'm hearing a lot of "pings." These seem to be coming from the bridge. A little bit of pencil lead made it go away for a while, but is there any other lubricant or applicant anyone can recommend as a more effective solution?

pings are more likely from the nut, if you changed string gauge, that will happen, need the nut filed properly. buzzy's honeyslick is the best lubricant out there.

[green swirl]

When you change strings, cut a 3-6 inch piece of each old string. Dip the middle of each string in valve grinding compound for cars. (any auto store). Try to keep the string at its playing angle and go back and forth in the saddle groove matching the string. Yaknow... E in E slot, A in A slot, D in D slot etc.This custom cuts the space for that kind and size of string. It gets rid of little unseen burrs or tight spots that hang up the string then release with that dreaded ping. (Some string brands are worse than others). Buy a little squeeze bottle of graphite powder when you pick up the valve grind compound. Do the same procedure with the nut slots but with greater care and tenderness. This is for fine finishing and does not take much in most cases. Graphite under the strings there too. Now the only 'Ping' you hear will be on the golf course.

[Greenblues]

Valve grinding compound? A most interesting technique... I'll give it a try.

My nut was cut for 10-46, but I've gone up to GHS 10.5 -48 recently. In spite of that, the guitar is holding tune really well under heavy wankage, even the low-E which was always coming up sharp before.

The only minor issues remaining are the G-string, which was a bit unstable and the source of the ping. I isolated that to the saddle by muting each string while depressing the bar. The saddle is visibly roughened. I'm no ob-gyn but the only way I can describe it is looking like a robot's labia...

Then there's the high-E. I tried bending the string as far as I could while pulling the bar UP The E-string wouldn't stay in tune after that. I've heard some guys will actually wrap a bit of string around the post even with locking tuners, so I might try that for extra stability.

[louis cyfer]

Valve grinding compound? A most interesting technique... I'll give it a try.

My nut was cut for 10-46, but I've gone up to GHS 10.5 -48 recently. In spite of that, the guitar is holding tune really well under heavy wankage, even the low-E which was always coming up sharp before.

The only minor issues remaining are the G-string, which was a bit unstable and the source of the ping. I isolated that to the saddle by muting each string while depressing the bar. The saddle is visibly roughened. I'm no ob-gyn but the only way I can describe it is looking like a robot's labia...

Then there's the high-E. I tried bending the string as far as I could while pulling the bar UP The E-string wouldn't stay in tune after that. I've heard some guys will actually wrap a bit of string around the post even with locking tuners, so I might try that for extra stability.

that will decrease stability. the point of locking tuners is that you don't have the string windings slip on each other when using the bar. you are gonna basically defeat the whole purpose of the locking tuners.

[darwinohm]

I agree with Louis but I also want to make a comment on GS's thought of using string wire and valve grinding compound (yes, I have used it on valves). I believe that method would not only widen the nut grove but also make it deeper by the same amount with the result of lowering the string in the nut, maybe not what we are trying to accomplish. Valve grinding compound is designed to cut metal to fit valves. Then a lapping compound is used to seat the valve. It would seem to be a bit harsh for plastic. There is a reason for nut files, and they are not cheap. if it were me I would take it to a competent tech and have it done for the string size I was using. -- Darwin

[green swirl]

darwinohm: I think the words valve gringing compound are self explanatory but mankind has multi tasked many objects for tasks other than their namesakes. We all use 'Electrical' tape, 'steel dental picks', 'tooth' picks, 'lathe' files etc for maintaining guitars. How do you steam out dents without a 'clothing' iron or 'soldering' gun and a 'dish' cloth? If anyone is unsure about doing something or has no mechanical skills then I agree...take it to a luthier...otherwise using your ingenuity is normal for most of us.

[louis cyfer]

darwinohm: I think the words valve gringing compound are self explanatory but mankind has multi tasked many objects for tasks other than their namesakes. We all use 'Electrical' tape, 'steel dental picks', 'tooth' picks, 'lathe' files etc for maintaining guitars. How do you steam out dents without a 'clothing' iron or 'soldering' gun and a 'dish' cloth? If anyone is unsure about doing something or has no mechanical skills then I agree...take it to a luthier...otherwise using your ingenuity is normal for most of us.

i don't think this is about a misunderstanding of terms, darwin is suggesting that using that method might accomplish more than desired. the issue is not with the name, or even that it is meant for something else, rather, it may not be appropriate. i think we a agree that many things that were meant for uses other than guitar repair/maintenance can be effectively used for such purpose.

[darwinohm]

otherwise using your ingenuity is normal for most of us.

This forum has demonstrated many occurrences of this and is a wealth of information. I have been doing this all my life and sometimes I get burned but a well thought out plan usually works! -- Darwin

[Greenblues]

Anyway, I don't know how to ask for valve grinding grease in Japanese. So should I just use a file on the saddles?

The G-string is making this phasing/flanging sound, and closer inspection reveals that it's not seated snuggly in the middle of saddle grove like the others.

This has actually been a recurring issue for years. It first occurred after I put a Roland GK-2A pickup on the guitar. So I thought the cause was the magnetic field, but I got rid of that moustache and wart on my guitar years ago. It probably doesn't have to do anything with the tuners. Sorry if this thread is digressing too far from the original topic.

[darwinohm]

GB, now were making progress! We are moving to the saddles. Hide that file for a while. The sounds you are describing are most likely coming from a saddle. First of all are the saddles worn a lot? Until that is determined we are only speculating. Saddles will make this noise, I refer to it as a sitar sound, although the most common is the high E. Visually look at you saddles and going across the bridge plate they should be parallel to the plate. This noise will ocure if the saddle is slightly tipped and it is barely touching the adjacent saddle. A good test for this is to pinch the saddles together with you fingers and see if the noise changes. If it does you have the culprit. I have seen people adjust the saddles in a plane like the radius so they are tipped a bit as they go across. they should all be level or the same plane as the bridge plate and then raised or lowered to get the correct radius but the whole saddle should be adjusted level, not just one side. I would check this first and then get back and we will proceed from there. If a saddle has been incorrectly adjusted for years and has a grove worn to one side or the other is should be replaced. Let us know what you find. Hide the file for now!-- Darwin

[Greenblues]

Thanks, Darwin. I saw your post elsewhere about the "sitar sound" and wondered if it might be the same thing I'm experiencing.

Actually, the angle of my saddles is all over the place. I had been setting the saddle of the high-E at an extreme angle to try to get it aligned with pole-piece on the neck pickup, and setting the others to compensate. This always bothered me because it looks terrible -- nothing like the pictures you see of other guitars, and nothing like I remember it looking when I took it out of its case for the first time 20 years ago. So last night, I raised the bridge, flattened all the saddles, and then adjusted to taste. Now flanging sitar is gone for the most part! I think it's staying in tune better, too.

Also, it occurred to me while setting up that the first step with the using the spacer block to level the bridge is not really "set-up" -- it's calibration. That may just seem like semantics, but it might be why so many of us (like me) get our G&L set up wrong. For years I thought it was ok to skip this step. Probably this was because it's not easy to find a 3/16 inch spacer block especially in a country that uses the metric system. Only AFTER the height and angle of the bridge plate are 'calibrated' can you proceed to setting-up the guitar.

Last night, inspired by the "toothbrush trick," I improvised the spacer block with the lid of a little sample cigarette case I got at a club event years ago ( I knew it would come in handy someday) stacked on an old train pass. Together, they measured just under the 5mm mark on the callipers -- close enough. However, the set-up saga continues because now it's going out of tune when I pull UP. Teflon-tape time?

[darwinohm]

GB, it looks to me like you are getting a handle on the situation. I would recommend using the G&L setup procedure for the starting height on the bridgeplate and make sure that it is level, then adjust string height on low E and high E,adjust the rest of the saddles for your radius and finally intonation and you should be in good shape. Hang in there and you will be your own tech! In the end the pole piece alignment is not that critical. before you do any more adjusting, I would make sure the strings are centered on the neck and that can sometimes be adjusted by loosening the neck screws -- Darwin

[louis cyfer]

if it's going sharp when you pull up, the nut is the problem.

[Greenblues]

When you change strings, cut a 3-6 inch piece of each old string. Dip the middle of each string in valve grinding compound for cars. (any auto store). Try to keep the string at its playing angle and go back and forth in the saddle groove matching the string. Yaknow... E in E slot, A in A slot, D in D slot etc.This custom cuts the space for that kind and size of string.

Anyone ever use this Mitchell Abrasive Cord stuff to smooth their saddles?

http://www.stewmac.com/tsarchive/ts0109 ... _Cord.html

[louis cyfer]

When you change strings, cut a 3-6 inch piece of each old string. Dip the middle of each string in valve grinding compound for cars. (any auto store). Try to keep the string at its playing angle and go back and forth in the saddle groove matching the string. Yaknow... E in E slot, A in A slot, D in D slot etc.This custom cuts the space for that kind and size of string.

Anyone ever use this Mitchell Abrasive Cord stuff to smooth their saddles?

http://www.stewmac.com/tsarchive/ts0109 ... _Cord.html

the best success i have had with saddles is using a dremmel tool with the small fine sandpaper head, and then the polishing wheel on the dremmel tool with a little polishing compound. i have not broken a string since i have started doing that. i start with the 320 sandpaper, then polish it up.

those abrasive cords look like you can use them from g to low e, but not n the b and high e saddles. or nutslots.

[Greenblues]

I continue to be amazed at how stable tuning is with these tuners, even with the deepest wanking, however I ran into some trouble last night after playing for a few hours. The guitar suddenly when way out of tune, and the high-E string wouldn't not stay in tune, and when I say wouldn't stay in tune, mean not even for a second. It looked like a ghost was playing slide-guitar. Eventually the string snapped out of the post.

This is actually the second time this has happened before. Visibile inspection reveals there is barely any string coming out of the other end of the hole, whereas the others have abt a 1/4" of string coming though. Maybe this is the problem. Too short?

[louis cyfer]

I continue to be amazed at how stable tuning is with these tuners, even with the deepest wanking, however I ran into some trouble last night after playing for a few hours. The guitar suddenly when way out of tune, and the high-E string wouldn't not stay in tune, and when I say wouldn't stay in tune, mean not even for a second. It looked like a ghost was playing slide-guitar. Eventually the string snapped out of the post.

This is actually the second time this has happened before. Visibile inspection reveals there is barely any string coming out of the other end of the hole, whereas the others have abt a 1/4" of string coming though. Maybe this is the problem. Too short?

no

[Miles Smiles]

My experience is, that it's better to have still at least a full winding of the string around the tuner post, especially for the blank strings. How much is left on the other side, doesn't count as long as the string doesn't slip through the clamp. I think that's happening to your e-string, it slips through. So if tightening the clamp isn't possible without damage or cutting through the string, leave more string on the inner part, before you tighten the clamp!

[louis cyfer]

My experience is, that it's better to have still at least a full winding of the string around the tuner post, especially for the blank strings. How much is left on the other side, doesn't count as long as the string doesn't slip through the clamp. I think that's happening to your e-string, it slips through. So if tightening the clamp isn't possible without damage or cutting through the string, leave more string on the inner part, before you tighten the clamp!

i think 1/4 to 1/2 turn is plenty, more is counter productive.
after i tighten (i prefer self locking tuners btw), the lock, i sharply bend the string and cut it right after the bend. that creates a natural lock that prevents slipping.

this definitely indicates slipping by the high e, and it broke when the bend that was at the entry point of the tuner slipped enough to straighten, the other end coming through was short because of the slipping.