Legacy Tremolo

[danno58]

Hey all,

I'd like to loosen the action on my tremolo because it feels too stiff in comparison to my other guitars...
My EBMM Luke is set for floating and it's very smooth and responsive.
I've owned a few Carvin's in the past w/ the Wilky and those were pretty smooth as well...

I've tried adjusting the springs and even removing one of the 3 springs, but it doesn't change much.
Thinking I may have to change out the springs w/ a set of that's not so stiff.

Any suggestions?

Thx - Dan

[Miles Smiles]

Thinking I may have to change out the springs w/ a set of that's not so stiff.

I would say yes, worth a try. The springs of your Luke should be perfect.

The sprint you tried to put out, was the color like of this one in the middle?



That one is very soft and does almost nothing, so basically the 2 springs on the outside do the job and there are for sure strings available with less tension.

[louis cyfer]

post a pic. if it's already floating, different springs won't make much difference if you stick with the same strings.

[danno58]

The current springs are silver....
It's set up w/ 9's and I don't plan on changing that.
I can post pics later when I get home from work....

I did look and compare the Luke's springs and they are a smaller diameter.
Perhaps, I'll toss the Luke springs on the Legacy and see what it does.

Thx - Dan

[louis cyfer]

The current springs are silver....
It's set up w/ 9's and I don't plan on changing that.
I can post pics later when I get home from work....

I did look and compare the Luke's springs and they are a smaller diameter.
Perhaps, I'll toss the Luke springs on the Legacy and see what it does.

Thx - Dan

the stiffness of the tremolo has little to do with the springs, it has to do with the leverage, i.e. the height of the saddles compared to the fulcrum point.

[danno58]

The current springs are silver....
It's set up w/ 9's and I don't plan on changing that.
I can post pics later when I get home from work....

I did look and compare the Luke's springs and they are a smaller diameter.
Perhaps, I'll toss the Luke springs on the Legacy and see what it does.

Thx - Dan

the stiffness of the tremolo has little to do with the springs, it has to do with the leverage, i.e. the height of the saddles compared to the fulcrum point.

Oh okay.
Well maybe lower the fulcrum and raise the saddles?
I'll mess around w/ it..
Thx

[Miles Smiles]

the stiffness of the tremolo has little to do with the springs

Why do you think that?

5 springs are a lot different to 2 springs, simply check it out, and maybe let one try who has not that bunch of muscles you have.

In both cases (5 or 2) the pull of the springs will be in balance with the pull of the strings. The difference is, the 5 springs will be expanded very little, as it takes a lot of force the expand them. The 2 springs will be expanded more for being in balance, as it's easier to expand 2 springs.

If you ever had and I'm sure you had, one of those training devices having 2 handles with springs in between, natural enemy of ones chest hair. You may remember, that one can pull them apart much further with less springs attached as with the full set.

When you press down the tremolo arm, you're just expanding springs.

[danno58]

Quick measurement w/ calipers:
Legacy = .23"
Luke = .33"

[louis cyfer]

The current springs are silver....
It's set up w/ 9's and I don't plan on changing that.
I can post pics later when I get home from work....

I did look and compare the Luke's springs and they are a smaller diameter.
Perhaps, I'll toss the Luke springs on the Legacy and see what it does.

Thx - Dan

the stiffness of the tremolo has little to do with the springs, it has to do with the leverage, i.e. the height of the saddles compared to the fulcrum point.

Oh okay.
Well maybe lower the fulcrum and raise the saddles?
I'll mess around w/ it..
Thx

the other way around. you want the strings break angle lower, and the distance closer to the fulcrum.

[louis cyfer]

the stiffness of the tremolo has little to do with the springs

Why do you think that?

5 springs are a lot different to 2 springs, simply check it out, and maybe let one try who has not that bunch of muscles you have.

In both cases (5 or 2) the pull of the springs will be in balance with the pull of the strings. The difference is, the 5 springs will be expanded very little, as it takes a lot of force the expand them. The 2 springs will be expanded more for being in balance, as it's easier to expand 2 springs.

If you ever had and I'm sure you had, one of those training devices having 2 handles with springs in between, natural enemy of ones chest hair. You may remember, that one can pull them apart much further with less springs attached as with the full set.

When you press down the tremolo arm, you're just expanding springs.

but he doesn't have 5 springs. switching to softer springs of the same number will not make a great difference because within their range the springs are pretty linear.
the difference between 3 and 2 is not that great. between 5 and 2 indeed it is.

[Miles Smiles]

the difference between 3 and 2 is not that great. between 5 and 2 indeed it is.

OK, fine.

What I meant at first, was to switch from 3 to 2, but 2 softer ones, which that from the Luke seems to be.

[danno58]

A few pix:

[Greenblues]

I just put some Gotoh Power Springs into my '93 Legacy over weekend. Three was enough to pull the back end of the bridge flush with the top. However TWO is just right! The tremolo feels spongier now, with about the same tuning stability. Still evaluating how it affects tone, but it certainly doesn't sound bad after the mod.

[danno58]

Here's the spring shot:

I did some comparing w/ the Luke, and the Luke is set to float so I can pull up and dive, so the angle is different where the Legacy is almost flat.
I noticed when I pull up on the Luke and bottom out on the body, there is still tension on the springs.
If I try that on the Legacy, the springs have no tension and the whole this is loose like the springs will drop out of the claw.
So I tightened the claw so that when its bottomed out there is still tension.
Really didn't change the action at all......so I'll continue to experiment.
Dan.

[louis cyfer]

just take the middle spring out and rebalance the springs. the bridge plate looks a bit low, raise it to 2/16 or until the high e saddle sits on the bridge plate at the right action. lower the rest of the saddles and you'll be fine.

[danno58]

Cool, thanks I'll give that a try..

Here's the Luke in case anyone would like to see:

[danno58]

Reporting back....

I took the Legacy to a local Luthier for some fret leveling, crowning and general setup.
Also asked him to look at the trem system to see if he could make it smoother / easier to use.
What he found is that there were felt washers on the posts under the bridge plate that were limiting or inhibiting the trem movement.
Not sure if these are factory, or if the previous owner put them on to stabilize it.
He removed them and lowered the bridge plate so that it rests / stops on the body.
The he adjusted the saddles in to the desired height after the frets were finished.

The Trem action is much improved and feels smoother.
Not quite a smooth as the EBMM, but good enough for my liking.

- Dan

[louis cyfer]

your luthier is an idiot. the g&l trem needs the washers and it is supposed to float above the body. he should review how to setup a g&l.

[danno58]

your luthier is an idiot. the g&l trem needs the washers and it is supposed to float above the body. he should review how to setup a g&l.

With all due respect.....this guy is a custom guitar builder, his work and quality rival the PRS's of the world.
He's been at this for the better part of 25 years and making a pretty good living and name for himself, so I trust him.
Especially since the fret work and results of the trem action are enough to my liking and expectation to keep the guitar around for a while.
I'm not afraid to step outside the box if it's going to result in improving the play-ability, and this did just that.....

[Miles Smiles]

There are several ways to set up a vibrato system and that luthier just didn't read the manual for the dual fulcrum. For the Fender dual pivot vibrato some people let the plate be in parallel floating. Some put it down to be not floating and others, maybe the most, handle it like the vintage system and do a floating set up with the plate in an angle to the body.

I prefer them two pivot systems to be floating in parallel with enough room for up bends and so the base plate has to be raised from the body. If the felt washers were in the way it has been probably too low already and the plate should have been raised. The only system were I put the base plate in an angle, is the (outdated) vintage vibrato system.

[danno58]

If the felt washers were in the way it has been probably too low already and the plate should have been raised.

I appreciate the feedback, and it's probable that he didn't read the dual fulcrum setup...
Prior to me taking it in, if I would have raised the plate to clear the washers then the action may have been too high for my liking as the saddles were pretty close to the plate as is. If I decide to make it float again, I'll have to experiment w/ the washers and the saddle height.
For now, it's fine for me not floating which makes it more stable anyway and I'm diggin the feel of it.....

[Boogie Bill]

My two cents...I agree with Louis, a rare thing...your repair guy is an idiot. I think the setup he did could actually damage the guitar in the long run. I've bought several used G&Ls with the DF and the only problems I've EVER had is when they are setup ouside of specs.All of mine use three springs and are smooth as silk and stable as Dr. Phil! I tune less than my friend has to tune his FR system. I like that it floats, that can I pull up and whinny like Hendrix or dive as deep as I need to. And with three springs.

And I'm about as buff as the Pillsbury Dough Boy...LOL! Unlike Louis, who is our rock!

But hey...if it works for you...whatever. I like the DF....it was designed by a genius by the name of Leo Fender, who built a few guitars. And set up properly, it works pretty darn good!

Good luck!

Bill

[louis cyfer]

My two cents...I agree with Louis, a rare thing...your repair guy is an idiot. I think the setup he did could actually damage the guitar in the long run. I've bought several used G&Ls with the DF and the only problems I've EVER had is when they are setup ouside of specs.All of mine use three springs and are smooth as silk and stable as Dr. Phil! I tune less than my friend has to tune his FR system. I like that it floats, that can I pull up and whinny like Hendrix or dive as deep as I need to. And with three springs.

And I'm about as buff as the Pillsbury Dough Boy...LOL! Unlike Louis, who is our rock!

But hey...if it works for you...whatever. I like the DF....it was designed by a genius by the name of Leo Fender, who built a few guitars. And set up properly, it works pretty darn good!

Good luck!

Bill

thanks bill. yeah, setting it up to spec and trying that should be the first step by a tech, and if the client doesn't like that, go on and try other things. they should also point out the the client that the setup done by goes against everything g&l suggests. doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, but the client should be informed. also, just because someone can build great guitars, doesn't mean they can do good setup work on others. the link the two is a fallacy. this luthier obviously has not dealt with g&l's and he should have at least investigated first, and also inform the client of the lack of experience. either he is an idiot, or dishonest. i don't want my guitar with either.

[danno58]

My two cents...I agree with Louis, a rare thing...your repair guy is an idiot. I think the setup he did could actually damage the guitar in the long run. I've bought several used G&Ls with the DF and the only problems I've EVER had is when they are setup ouside of specs.All of mine use three springs and are smooth as silk and stable as Dr. Phil! I tune less than my friend has to tune his FR system. I like that it floats, that can I pull up and whinny like Hendrix or dive as deep as I need to. And with three springs.

And I'm about as buff as the Pillsbury Dough Boy...LOL! Unlike Louis, who is our rock!

But hey...if it works for you...whatever. I like the DF....it was designed by a genius by the name of Leo Fender, who built a few guitars. And set up properly, it works pretty darn good!

Good luck!

Bill

thanks bill. yeah, setting it up to spec and trying that should be the first step by a tech, and if the client doesn't like that, go on and try other things. they should also point out the the client that the setup done by goes against everything g&l suggests. doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, but the client should be informed. also, just because someone can build great guitars, doesn't mean they can do good setup work on others. the link the two is a fallacy. this luthier obviously has not dealt with g&l's and he should have at least investigated first, and also inform the client of the lack of experience. either he is an idiot, or dishonest. i don't want my guitar with either.

Well, if that's the case then it would have been nice if someone actually shared the set up spec w/ me in the first place instead of all the prior suggestions on springs, height, etc.....
I typically work on all my guitars, setup, electronics, etc...it's not rocket science....
I decided to take it to a pro who knows what he's doing for the fret work, because I'd hate to mess up the sweet tinted BEM neck and FB. As a favor, he looked into the trem set up and did what I asked, and that was to make it work smoother.
The trem action was terrible before he made the changes. And it paled in comparison to the Music Man trem.
That was my benchmark, and he improved it and made it usable to me.

I'm 55 and playing for 40, and know who Leo Fender is. I've owned a handful of his guitars, and they always needed something because of a poor or substandard design. He's not God.....and there are better designs out there, you know it and I know it.
I would appreciate at least a little respect in my decision and the bottom line is that it works and is way better than it was.

[louis cyfer]

the set up spec should come in the manual with the guitars. i don't think it occurred to any of us that you didn't read that. the df tremolo is probably the best tremolo out there actually. both for tone and function. it is an improvement on the previous designs of leo.

[danno58]

I bought it used and it did not come w the manual
Is it available on the G&L site?
Thanks

[louis cyfer]

here on this forum actually. in the gallery, and more in the knowledgebase.

http://www.guitarsbyleo.com/GALLERY2/ma ... emId=10418

http://guitarsbyleo.com/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3371

[danno58]

Okay thanks I'll check it out

[danno58]

The pics certainly help....
I'll have to experiment w/ it.
Hoping that raising the bridge plate still allows for the low action that I currently have.

Sure would be nice if they had the manual available in one pdf for downloading and printing.

[Craig]

The pics certainly help....
I'll have to experiment w/ it.
Hoping that raising the bridge plate still allows for the low action that I currently have.

Sure would be nice if they had the manual available in one pdf for downloading and printing.

Look at the FAQ on the G&L main website.

BTW, what year is your Legacy? If you aren't sure, check this post from our G&L Knowledgebase: How do I determine an instrument's age?

[danno58]

It's an 08'.
I did re install one set of the washers and am experimenting w/ the bridge height.
I think if I go all the way to 2/16" to the bottom of the plate, the action is going to be too high.
The high E string saddle is resting on the plate, so I'm just going to set it so my action is where I want it then the bridge will just have to fall in wherever to make that work.
The Trem action seems fine so far... I don't understand why it felt so stiff before. Oh well....

Thanks ! - Dan