Nut height/action-Legacy Tribute & Ascari

[AP84]

Hi guys
I am an owner of a Legacy Tribute and Ascari. Both models - as well as my brother's identical Legacy Tribute and another I tried in a store - have an oddly high action at the nut.

I have had the Legacy set up and tried myself using the tips I've found here. Basically, on the two guitars I own and my brother's Legacy Tribute, the high action at the nut causes poor playability and even more importantly poor intonation (especially in the first few frets). What am I missing? Why have all these guitars come with a much higher action at the nut than expected or come across?

The tech I tried lowered the action to a good height, but it was buzzing like crazy. I got him to heighten it so that now the buzzing is not a big issue. I wouldn't have the action any higher and would only play certain styles on it (it's not good for anything hard rock or heavier now).

Thanks in advance for any help with these issues.

[Craig]

Hi guys
I am an owner of a Legacy Tribute and Ascari. Both models - as well as my brother's identical Legacy Tribute and another I tried in a store - have an oddly high action at the nut.

I have had the Legacy set up and tried myself using the tips I've found here. Basically, on the two guitars I own and my brother's Legacy Tribute, the high action at the nut causes poor playability and even more importantly poor intonation (especially in the first few frets). What am I missing? Why have all these guitars come with a much higher action at the nut than expected or come across?

The tech I tried lowered the action to a good height, but it was buzzing like crazy. I got him to heighten it so that now the buzzing is not a big issue. I wouldn't have the action any higher and would only play certain styles on it (it's not good for anything hard rock or heavier now).

Thanks in advance for any help with these issues.

Were these guitars purchased new from a G&L dealer? If so, did you take them back to
the dealer to have them checked and setup to factory specs?

What is the measurement of #6E string from top of 1st fret to bottom of string?
What is the measurement of #6E string from top of 12th fret to bottom of string?

And for the Legacy:
What is the measurement of the bridge plate bottom to the body?
Is the bridge plate parallel to the body?

Can you post a photo of TS Legacy and Ascari showing the nut spacing (looking at the side of the neck)?
Please include the serial numbers of both guitars, too.

[AP84]

Were these guitars purchased new from a G&L dealer? If so, did you take them back to
the dealer to have them checked and setup to factory specs?

What is the measurement of #6E string from top of 1st fret to bottom of string?
What is the measurement of #6E string from top of 12th fret to bottom of string?

And for the Legacy:
What is the measurement of the bridge plate bottom to the body?
Is the bridge plate parallel to the body?

Can you post a photo of TS Legacy and Ascari showing the nut spacing (looking at the side of the neck)?
Please include the serial numbers of both guitars, too.

The Legacy Tribs were purchased from the Australian distributor through eBay. It’s too far for me to take the guitars there and I don’t think there are any dealers where I reside (Melbourne, AUS).

The Ascari was purchased second hand. I am the second owner – it was originally brought in to Aus. via eBay.

Both guitars:
1/32” between 1st fret & 6E
5/64” between 12th fret & 6E
(I attempted to set up the Ascari myself whilst the Legacy was done by a tech)

Legacy bridge plate is 5/64” from the body, although it ever so slightly pulled uneven by the springs (it’s 3/32” at the hex screw)

Ascari s/n 110731754
Legacy s/n 110210726

Photos coming shortly

Cheers

[AP84]

PHOTOS

ASCARI 1E
http://s1326.beta.photobucket.com/user/ ... 7.jpg.html

ASCARI 6E
http://s1326.beta.photobucket.com/user/ ... 6.jpg.html

LEGACY 1E
http://s1326.beta.photobucket.com/user/ ... 5.jpg.html

LEGACY 6E
http://s1326.beta.photobucket.com/user/ ... 4.jpg.html

[Philby]

Five Star Music in Ringwood is a G&L dealer though last time I was out there they were in dispute with the distributor over warranty claims. Not an ideal situation. Frontier Music in Ivanhoe was also a G&L dealer last time I was in there, albeit over 12 months ago.

I've had good setups done at Gallins Guitars in Prahran and Blackburn even though they're a Gibson dealer. But you'd have to pay for them to take a look. They're fast and efficient and not shoddy.

[louis cyfer]

what's the relief and the if you fret the second fret, what is the clearance at the first on the 6th string.

[AP84]

Five Star Music in Ringwood is a G&L dealer though last time I was out there they were in dispute with the distributor over warranty claims. Not an ideal situation. Frontier Music in Ivanhoe was also a G&L dealer last time I was in there, albeit over 12 months ago.

I've had good setups done at Gallins Guitars in Prahran and Blackburn even though they're a Gibson dealer. But you'd have to pay for them to take a look. They're fast and efficient and not shoddy.

Cheers - I'll check those two places out. Thing is though - even the distributor has very few guitars at the moment - a few Legacys and ASATs. I wish we had access to more G&Ls - Comanche, S-500 deluxe, Legacy Rustic and F-100 are all on my list, but they'll have to wait until I get over to the US. I'll check them out for service though.

The tech I used supposedly has a good rep, and I'm not up for forking out another $90 odd for them to do something that takes 20 minutes - especially since I got the Legacy for $395. I brought the guitar back to him with these issues and he tried to convince me that it was fine. I'll try another tech I know of for my Ascari though. But first - I will learn as much as I can myself - which is why I posted this in the first place. The tech made little improvement to my own set up for my Legacy. It ain't rocket science, and the little tricks they seem to know ain't worth the money they charge.

[AP84]

what's the relief and the if you fret the second fret, what is the clearance at the first on the 6th string.

How do I measure the relief? Fret at 1st & 14th and measure the gap at the 7th?

As for 6E clearance at the first fret when the 2nd is fretted, probably less then 1/64" on both guitars.

[louis cyfer]

what's the relief and the if you fret the second fret, what is the clearance at the first on the 6th string.

How do I measure the relief? Fret at 1st & 14th and measure the gap at the 7th?

As for 6E clearance at the first fret when the 2nd is fretted, probably less then 1/64" on both guitars.

0.015" is just about right for the 1st fret clearance. all of it is in the instruction manual. relief is checked with 1st and 22nd fretted at the 8th fret. the pics you have provided are not much info, but i have a feeling the relief is too much. g&l recommends .01-.012 at the 8th fret, i prefer much less, less than .0005. the effect of this is lower action between the 1st and 12th fret. the action 5/64 is way too high at the 12 fret, indicating relief issues. it should be 4/64 at the 22nd fret and somewhere around 3/64 at the 12th fret. you need a better gauge than a ruler that measures the 1/64th.

any tech that tries to convince you that the guitar is fine instead of listening and adjusting it to your liking (and telling you what is possible, or if it will have issues like buzzing), is not worth anything. so you have a crappy tech.

i did my own setups for 20 years, i figured it's not rocket science. than i played a guitar setup by a real tech. i was blown away. he has set up all my guitar now, i don't touch them anymore. the difference is incredible. all other tech's i tried before that made little to no difference. i don't think most players have or will ever know what a properly setup guitar feels like, nor will it matter to them unless they are at a certain level of playing. my tech prides himself of being able to satisfy the pickiest sob's. which include eric johnson and christopher cross amog a bunch of others.

[AP84]

0.015" is just about right for the 1st fret clearance. all of it is in the instruction manual. relief is checked with 1st and 22nd fretted at the 8th fret. the pics you have provided are not much info, but i have a feeling the relief is too much. g&l recommends .01-.012 at the 8th fret, i prefer much less, less than .0005. the effect of this is lower action between the 1st and 12th fret. the action 5/64 is way too high at the 12 fret, indicating relief issues. it should be 4/64 at the 22nd fret and somewhere around 3/64 at the 12th fret. you need a better gauge than a ruler that measures the 1/64th.

any tech that tries to convince you that the guitar is fine instead of listening and adjusting it to your liking (and telling you what is possible, or if it will have issues like buzzing), is not worth anything. so you have a crappy tech.

i did my own setups for 20 years, i figured it's not rocket science. than i played a guitar setup by a real tech. i was blown away. he has set up all my guitar now, i don't touch them anymore. the difference is incredible. all other tech's i tried before that made little to no difference. i don't think most players have or will ever know what a properly setup guitar feels like, nor will it matter to them unless they are at a certain level of playing. my tech prides himself of being able to satisfy the pickiest sob's. which include eric johnson and christopher cross amog a bunch of others.

So what are you trying to say? That the action and poor intonation in the first few frets is caused by relief issues? I've adjusted the relief, and the result is way too much fret buzz.

Aside from that (not directed at you but generally speaking), why do my legacy trib, my bros, AND my Ascari have identical problems? Whatever the issues are, that should not be the case.

It's wonderful that you are so happy with your tech. I cogratulate you. Unfortuantely for me, I'm still trying to find a good one and in the mean time, I will try to do some research of my own.

[louis cyfer]

0.015" is just about right for the 1st fret clearance. all of it is in the instruction manual. relief is checked with 1st and 22nd fretted at the 8th fret. the pics you have provided are not much info, but i have a feeling the relief is too much. g&l recommends .01-.012 at the 8th fret, i prefer much less, less than .0005. the effect of this is lower action between the 1st and 12th fret. the action 5/64 is way too high at the 12 fret, indicating relief issues. it should be 4/64 at the 22nd fret and somewhere around 3/64 at the 12th fret. you need a better gauge than a ruler that measures the 1/64th.

any tech that tries to convince you that the guitar is fine instead of listening and adjusting it to your liking (and telling you what is possible, or if it will have issues like buzzing), is not worth anything. so you have a crappy tech.

i did my own setups for 20 years, i figured it's not rocket science. than i played a guitar setup by a real tech. i was blown away. he has set up all my guitar now, i don't touch them anymore. the difference is incredible. all other tech's i tried before that made little to no difference. i don't think most players have or will ever know what a properly setup guitar feels like, nor will it matter to them unless they are at a certain level of playing. my tech prides himself of being able to satisfy the pickiest sob's. which include eric johnson and christopher cross amog a bunch of others.

So what are you trying to say? That the action and poor intonation in the first few frets is caused by relief issues? I've adjusted the relief, and the result is way too much fret buzz.

Aside from that (not directed at you but generally speaking), why do my legacy trib, my bros, AND my Ascari have identical problems? Whatever the issues are, that should not be the case.

It's wonderful that you are so happy with your tech. I cogratulate you. Unfortuantely for me, I'm still trying to find a good one and in the mean time, I will try to do some research of my own.

your 1st fret clearance is about double than what is called for by g&l, your action is way higher too, and i don't know your relief numbers. any new tribute is gonna need a fret level and dress. unlike the usa ones that are plekked, these guitars are not setup to the same level.

[AP84]

your 1st fret clearance is about double than what is called for by g&l, your action is way higher too, and i don't know your relief numbers. any new tribute is gonna need a fret level and dress. unlike the usa ones that are plekked, these guitars are not setup to the same level.

Lol, so what you're saying is, Tribute series guitars aren't set up to anywhere near G&L standards.

So my relief is around 1/64" on the Legacy and a little more on the Ascari. I'll take them both to another tech, and if they need too much spent on them to get them up to scratch, they're gone. I had a Mexican Fender (Blacktop) that didn't need anything like this to get it up to scratch - I set it up myself and only got rid of it due to the neck radius. It has the same street price as the Ascari in the US and although the bridge p/up was for the tip, it played in a different league. The whole point in buying these cheaper guitars for me was to have back-ups, to learn about set-ups and to use them for teaching. Not to have to spend through the arse so that by the time they're up to scratch it would cost nearly as much as a US model. It's counter-productive to spend that kind of money on cheaper guitars.

Maybe it was presupposed that the target market for these guitars wouldn't care too much about playability?

[louis cyfer]

your 1st fret clearance is about double than what is called for by g&l, your action is way higher too, and i don't know your relief numbers. any new tribute is gonna need a fret level and dress. unlike the usa ones that are plekked, these guitars are not setup to the same level.

Lol, so what you're saying is, Tribute series guitars aren't set up to anywhere near G&L standards.

So my relief is around 1/64" on the Legacy and a little more on the Ascari. I'll take them both to another tech, and if they need too much spent on them to get them up to scratch, they're gone. I had a Mexican Fender (Blacktop) that didn't need anything like this to get it up to scratch - I set it up myself and only got rid of it due to the neck radius. It has the same street price as the Ascari in the US and although the bridge p/up was for the tip, it played in a different league. The whole point in buying these cheaper guitars for me was to have back-ups, to learn about set-ups and to use them for teaching. Not to have to spend through the arse so that by the time they're up to scratch it would cost nearly as much as a US model. It's counter-productive to spend that kind of money on cheaper guitars.

Maybe it was presupposed that the target market for these guitars wouldn't care too much about playability?

mexican strats need their frets leveled and dressed as well. most usa strats as well. you need tools and knowledge though, some feeler gauges to be able to measure more accurately. but from what you have described, you don't yet have the knowledge or tools for good setups.

[AP84]

mexican strats need their frets leveled and dressed as well. most usa strats as well. you need tools and knowledge though, some feeler gauges to be able to measure more accurately. but from what you have described, you don't yet have the knowledge or tools for good setups.

This Mexican strat was fine for playability, and as I said, much better than both G&Ls. That also goes for other Mexican strats I've played. I don't need "tools and knowledge" to know what I want my guitars to feel and play like. Clearly I do to get the G&Ls up to scratch though, which is where a good tech would come in. I'm not that much of a handy-person and when it gets to the point of needing fretwork, that's where I draw the line. I shouldn't need to know how to do fretwork to make what should be a decent new guitar playable and intonating well.

So the moral of the story is - don't buy a Tribute unless you can do the fretwork or are willing to fork out the extra cash to someone who can? That would be the case if I am to take your word for it.

[louis cyfer]

mexican strats need their frets leveled and dressed as well. most usa strats as well. you need tools and knowledge though, some feeler gauges to be able to measure more accurately. but from what you have described, you don't yet have the knowledge or tools for good setups.

This Mexican strat was fine for playability, and as I said, much better than both G&Ls. That also goes for other Mexican strats I've played. I don't need "tools and knowledge" to know what I want my guitars to feel and play like. Clearly I do to get the G&Ls up to scratch though, which is where a good tech would come in. I'm not that much of a handy-person and when it gets to the point of needing fretwork, that's where I draw the line. I shouldn't need to know how to do fretwork to make what should be a decent new guitar playable and intonating well.

So the moral of the story is - don't buy a Tribute unless you can do the fretwork or are willing to fork out the extra cash to someone who can? That would be the case if I am to take your word for it.

you are correct that you don't need tools and knowledge to now what you want your guitar to play and feel like. you need those to achieve such.

from one of the premier guitar builders " ALL necks made MUST have this treatment to achieve optimum playability. My thoughts are, a finished guitar that has not had the frets leveled and crowned is not finished at all.

Why do the Big Guys not do it as a matter of construction? Because it is labor intensive. Labor costs money and spending more money to build their guitars is not where the large manufacturers want to go."

"Next a complete fret leveling and crowning is done. Some will argue such treatment should not be required on a new neck. This is completely incorrect. All necks made require this process and this is why. When the frets are pressed into the neck by any one of a number of accepted methods they will encounter varying densities within the same fingerboard. This will cause some frets to settle in further than others. A difference of only .001 inch at the 14 th fret would require an action of over 1/16” at that fret if the note played at the 13 th is not to buzz. By leveling, that action can generally be reduced to a few thousandths of an inch."

only the higher end guitars receive this, not the ones made in mexico or asia. most of the big guys are moving to plekk to get this done, such as USA GIBSON AND USA G&L.

[AP84]

you are correct that you don't need tools and knowledge to now what you want your guitar to play and feel like. you need those to achieve such.

from one of the premier guitar builders " ALL necks made MUST have this treatment to achieve optimum playability. My thoughts are, a finished guitar that has not had the frets leveled and crowned is not finished at all.

Why do the Big Guys not do it as a matter of construction? Because it is labor intensive. Labor costs money and spending more money to build their guitars is not where the large manufacturers want to go."

"Next a complete fret leveling and crowning is done. Some will argue such treatment should not be required on a new neck. This is completely incorrect. All necks made require this process and this is why. When the frets are pressed into the neck by any one of a number of accepted methods they will encounter varying densities within the same fingerboard. This will cause some frets to settle in further than others. A difference of only .001 inch at the 14 th fret would require an action of over 1/16” at that fret if the note played at the 13 th is not to buzz. By leveling, that action can generally be reduced to a few thousandths of an inch."

only the higher end guitars receive this, not the ones made in mexico or asia. most of the big guys are moving to plekk to get this done, such as USA GIBSON AND USA G&L.

Which guitar builder said that? Makes sense =)

As for plekk, I've played a new '08 LP Std. It played like a bag of dicks and buzzed all over the place - this leads me to believe that there's more to it.

[louis cyfer]

you are correct that you don't need tools and knowledge to now what you want your guitar to play and feel like. you need those to achieve such.

from one of the premier guitar builders " ALL necks made MUST have this treatment to achieve optimum playability. My thoughts are, a finished guitar that has not had the frets leveled and crowned is not finished at all.

Why do the Big Guys not do it as a matter of construction? Because it is labor intensive. Labor costs money and spending more money to build their guitars is not where the large manufacturers want to go."

"Next a complete fret leveling and crowning is done. Some will argue such treatment should not be required on a new neck. This is completely incorrect. All necks made require this process and this is why. When the frets are pressed into the neck by any one of a number of accepted methods they will encounter varying densities within the same fingerboard. This will cause some frets to settle in further than others. A difference of only .001 inch at the 14 th fret would require an action of over 1/16” at that fret if the note played at the 13 th is not to buzz. By leveling, that action can generally be reduced to a few thousandths of an inch."

only the higher end guitars receive this, not the ones made in mexico or asia. most of the big guys are moving to plekk to get this done, such as USA GIBSON AND USA G&L.

Which guitar builder said that? Makes sense =)

As for plekk, I've played a new '08 LP Std. It played like a bag of dicks and buzzed all over the place - this leads me to believe that there's more to it.

ron kirn said it. as good as it gets. i highly recommend reading his website to learn how a guitar should be built. there is more to it than plek, it's only as good as its operator, but it is faster and they require less training than a craftsman doing thew job manually. also turn out more guitars with a single operator. if you read ron kirn's site, you'll learn that he takes at least 3 days just for setting up his guitars before he considers them ready. it should not be 20 minutes.

[AP84]

ron kirn said it. as good as it gets. i highly recommend reading his website to learn how a guitar should be built. there is more to it than plek, it's only as good as its operator, but it is faster and they require less training than a craftsman doing thew job manually. also turn out more guitars with a single operator. if you read ron kirn's site, you'll learn that he takes at least 3 days just for setting up his guitars before he considers them ready. it should not be 20 minutes.

Great! Thank you!!

I wonder if Mr. Craig has anything to add?

[Craig]

I contacted the factory about current setups specifically to the set neck models and models
with the non-G&L bridges and here is the reply from Steve Grom (Director of Manufacturing):

Craig,

String height and 1st fret nut height are basically the same for all guitar models regardless of the bridge

String Height -- 4/64" @ 12th fret for the 1st string
5/64" @ 12th fret for the 6th string

1st Fret -- .020" (+/- .002")

Pickups should be 3/32" (+/- 1/64") This can vary somewhat depending on personal taste

The details on how to setup a Floyd Rose, Tone Pros or Kahler bridges can be found on the individual web
sites for each company. These companies also have various "user" sites that will also provide useful
information on the care and feeding of these bridges (especially the Kahler bridges)

Thanks

Steve

Hope this helps.

[AP84]

Hey guys

Well, I found a fantastic tech. He has my Ascari "playing like a demon", as he puts it haha.

I got an SD JB put in to the bridge position for my heavier tastes. The split coil sound with both pickups on isn't as nice or twangy (I thought the split coil sound with the original pickups was great in this position as well as the neck), but overall it is playing and sounding awesome... I love it!!

I may have gotten rid of it had the responses in this thread not convinced me to get it set up once I found someone decent. So for that - thank you!! Now I'm getting a little keen on an ASAT deluxe... hmm?

If you're in Melbourne, Australia and would like to know who the <censored word> tech was, and who the awesome one is - just let me know. Otherwise I won't go internet bashing. The good one doesn't seem to need any promo anyway since he always seems to be inundated with work.

Cheers

[louis cyfer]

Hey guys

Well, I found a fantastic tech. He has my Ascari "playing like a demon", as he puts it haha.

I got an SD JB put in to the bridge position for my heavier tastes. The split coil sound with both pickups on isn't as nice or twangy (I thought the split coil sound with the original pickups was great in this position as well as the neck), but overall it is playing and sounding awesome... I love it!!

I may have gotten rid of it had the responses in this thread not convinced me to get it set up once I found someone decent. So for that - thank you!! Now I'm getting a little keen on an ASAT deluxe... hmm?

If you're in Melbourne, Australia and would like to know who the <censored word> tech was, and who the awesome one is - just let me know. Otherwise I won't go internet bashing. The good one doesn't seem to need any promo anyway since he always seems to be inundated with work.

Cheers

i am really happy for you that you found a good tech, and now you can appreciate the difference. and what a difference it makes. i think now you understand what i mean that most guitarists never have the pleasure to know what a really well setup guitar feels and plays like. unfortunately it's one of those professions that is full of people claiming to know what they are doing , yet know less than nothing. i see this in my line of work (training) everyday. for maybe every 1000 trainers who know very little and do more damage than good, there is one who is at least competent. a very sad ratio, and so many people are getting ripped off daily, not even realizing it most of the time.

[AP84]

i am really happy for you that you found a good tech, and now you can appreciate the difference. and what a difference it makes. i think now you understand what i mean that most guitarists never have the pleasure to know what a really well setup guitar feels and plays like. unfortunately it's one of those professions that is full of people claiming to know what they are doing , yet know less than nothing. i see this in my line of work (training) everyday. for maybe every 1000 trainers who know very little and do more damage than good, there is one who is at least competent. a very sad ratio, and so many people are getting ripped off daily, not even realizing it most of the time.

Totally understand what you mean mate. I guess all we can do is live and learn - I know it's a cliche but they ring so true - when there's a will there's a way! I've wasted $$$ on so called experts at this and that over the years, but I think it's unfortunately an essential part of finding the right people and the right way. Or maybe I'm just easily duped? lol

Thanks again.