Tilt Neck / floating tremolo - proper setup?

[magnetbox]

Hi everyone!

A few years ago I lucked into a late 80s Rampage at a garage sale, and I didn't hesitate to shell out the small sum the owner was asking for. It's obviously been kicked around a bit over the years and has its share of chips and scratches. But the neck is super-thin and the frets are in good shape.

However, the setup's been puzzling since day one. It's got a "designed by Leo Fender" floating tremolo bridge (w/ fine tuners and infamous Guitar Tech locking nut) and a 3-bolt tilt neck. When I got it, the neck was very, very pitched back-- big gap in the neck pocket. I've owned my share of strat-bridge-style guitars and this looked suspicious, so I carefully removed the strings and backed off on the tilt-adjust until I could remove the neck screws. I replaced the neck dead flat in the pocket, as it normally would be (in my experience). Thankfully I didn't see any damage, and even took the time to photograph the neck date while I had it apart.

However, since doing this, I can't get that tremolo bridge to behave-- it puts the action way high! Before I adjusted the neck tilt the guitar played great, surprisingly enough. I've played with spring tension a bit to try and make the bridge go level with the body, but I've been unable to get the strings low enough to play well.

What gives? Am I over-thinking this? I've owned plenty of traditional Strat-bridge equipped guitars but never one with a floating style...is the neck supposed to be tilted?

[Katefan]

HI - Nice score on the Rampage. I had one but mine like most had a Kahler trem...

I've never owned a G&L that had Leo's fine tuner bridge so i'm unsure about that specific one...

it sounds to me like the neck or neck pocket may have been originally cut so the neck would need more of a tilt but without seeing it firsthand I can't be sure. I'm also not sure what you mean by low or high action as its all relative but it sounds like the action is extremely high - Obviously, adjusting the tilt adjust back to where it was would be your simplest fix. Otherwise you could have a luthier modify the neck a bit by shaving it down some. I'd opt for the tilt adjust as it wouldn't affect the originality. Original Rampages fetch good $$ these days as you probably know.
Cheers,
KF

p.s. There's a unwritten rule here on this board... without a picture - it doesnt exist.
Folks like to see em!
Cheers

[Craig]

Check out the Owner's Manuals we have in the Gallery: Album: Instrument Manuals and Wiring Schematics.

Katefan is partially correct about photo proof required of a mentioned G&L instrument. It is written about in this post:
Welcome! Read This First.

[Elwood]

What gives? Am I over-thinking this? I've owned plenty of traditional Strat-bridge equipped guitars but never one with a floating style...is the neck supposed to be tilted?

Welcome ,
No , you'll be able to get it to behave if all the parts are solid and within specs.
I have a rampage (sort of) with a fine tuner DF so we could always use that as a reference.

The fine tuner bridge setup is the same as a regular DF assembly, there is a step by step in the FAQ/tech section
I believe. (edit:Craig is the MAN, thanks Craig !)

Can you take some pictures? that will make things go alot quicker I bet,
(besides ...we love old Rampage porn )

[magnetbox]

from when I first got it...



and these days, cleaned up a little.


as the bridge sits, kinda leaning back into the body. strung with 10s.


I know this doesn't look like it's way out of line for action at the highest frets, but this is as low as I can adjust the saddles.

[KenC]

This reminds me of how my '82 SC-2 played when I bought it. Getting the bridge completely parallel to the body and tweaking the truss rod took care of most of the high action, and adding a little bit of micro-tilt got it perfect.

Is the action on your Rampage too high starting at the first fret? If you capo the first fret and fret the string just past the 22nd fret, how much relief is there at the 8th fret?

Ken

[louis cyfer]

traditional strat style trems are supposed to float as well. leo designed them for floating. this trem needs to be parallel to the body, not tilting back. you need to tilt the neck, that is what it's for. a lot of fenders need to get shimmed, the tilt neck function saves you the shimming. by increasing the tilt, you lower the action. just simple geometry. raise the saddles to the middle of the range, radius them and use the tilt to get the action in the ball park. then you'll have enough range in the saddle adjustment to fine tune the action.
you may want to take it to a tech though, it seems that this type of setup is beyond your understanding.

[Elwood]

It looks like there are two felt washers between the bridge plate
around the posts, usually there is just a single felt washer (although I can't
see them creating much resistance , they are somewhat thick ).
Is the bridge plate about 1/4" above the body (3/8" max) ?
In the picture it looks a little high but it could just be the photo angle.
Can you lower the bridge plate a tad without some other problem raising it's head?
if so, I would do that then continue the set-up procedure as louis describes.

(You'll have to lower the pickup some too...I see it's sitting high to accommodate
the present geometry)

Have you adjusted intonation before ? It will need to be done once you or a tech has
adjusted the neck angle/saddles/plate height/etc.

Elwood

[magnetbox]

this trem needs to be parallel to the body, not tilting back. you need to tilt the neck, that is what it's for. a lot of fenders need to get shimmed, the tilt neck function saves you the shimming.

Thanks, that's what I needed confirmation on. The guy who I bought it from said he'd bought it new when he was a teenager, so I didn't know what to think of the neck angle. I'll give it a shot.

I've shimmed necks to correct problems, usually on mismatched "partscaster" builds. Obviously in this case the tilt-neck feature is something the manufacturer put there for me to use, but also it seems that there are a lot of other guitars out there that have it, but don't need it. Guess it all depends on what you want out of the guitar, in terms of action, as well.

[magnetbox]

It looks like there are two felt washers between the bridge plate
around the posts, usually there is just a single felt washer (although I can't
see them creating much resistance , they are somewhat thick ).
Is the bridge plate about 1/4" above the body (3/8" max) ?
In the picture it looks a little high but it could just be the photo angle.
Can you lower the bridge plate a tad without some other problem raising it's head?

I was curious about the overall height, too. I'll take a look. Not sure if the studs are adjustable or not, that's something I guess I haven't investigated.

It looks like there are two felt washers in there...will take a closer look tonight and post measurements.

Yes, intonation, radius and pickup height will get sorted as soon as I get the action under control. Thanks!

[Elwood]

Not sure if the studs are adjustable or not, !

They are , if the second felt washer makes things tight you'll have to either carefully cut through one
to remove it, or since I covet any Leo-era part...I would pull the bridge off completely and pull the washer off the bottom of the stud once it's out . That's alot of work to keep two little felt washers intact...if you choose to cut it off be sure to protect the body in case you slip. You could raise the bridge a bit just to make it easier to get some little scissors in there.
...just trying to be pro-active.

[Craig]

Not sure if the studs are adjustable or not, !

They are , if the second felt washer makes things tight you'll have to either carefully cut through one
to remove it, or since I covet any Leo-era part...I would pull the bridge off completely and pull the washer off the bottom of the stud once it's out . That's alot of work to keep two little felt washers intact...if you choose to cut it off be sure to protect the body in case you slip. You could raise the bridge a bit just to make it easier to get some little scissors in there.
...just trying to be pro-active.

First off two felt washers per pivot stud is factory standard for this era guitar.

My recommendation is to get the setup back to factory specifications, see my previous post for pointer to
the two versions of the Owner's Manual and follow the procedures in the appropriate manual which
is based upon build year. Once you get it dialed to factory specs, then adjust it to your personal
preference.

Also see this post in the G&L Knowledgebase, G&L Tech Tips sub-forum: Can you tell me which allen wrenches I need for my G&L?

Hope this helps.

[Elwood]

First off two felt washers per pivot stud is factory standard for this era guitar.

D'oh,
Thanks for the correction...I guess I've removed a few and forgot...maybe more ginko biloba ?

Sorry for the bad info magnetbox.

Elwhoops

[KenC]

...be sure to protect the body in case you slip.

I would also suggest placing a 3/8" shim under the end of the bridge before making ANY adjustments, to protect the finish in case of mishap. This also gives a gauge for when the bridge is the correct height above the body, as the shim will slide out with minimal resistance. I have seen recommendations to stack two popsicle sticks for this, or I have used one popsicle stick wrapped with a scrap of t-shirt material.

Ken

[Boogie Bill]

I think you want the bridge plate floating level to the body, 3/16" above the plane of the body, not 3/8", which would be way too high.

I agree with Craig: print off those setup instructions, follow them to the letter, no shortcuts, and get it back to factory specs. Take it to a luthier if you need to, but take the instructions to him with the guitar. And be clear with him that the instructions be followed to the tee.

The radius of the saddles need to be matched to the radius of the fingerboard. The height of the individual saddles need to be in proper relation to the height of the bridge plate, and that plate to the neck angle.

This is not a vintage Strat; you must follow the G&L procedure, or you will have problems, somewhere down the line. You should have a great playing guitar when it is properly set up. And, there will be room for modest adjustments for your playing style.

Let us know how it comes out. I wish you all the best.

Bill

[KenC]

I think you want the bridge plate floating level to the body, 3/16" above the plane of the body, not 3/8", which would be way too high.

D'oh! 3/16" it is...

One other thing that should be mentioned... Using the micro-tilt and then over-tightening the neck screws is a recipe for a "ski jump" at the end of the fretboard after a while. Take the neck screws to the point of being just screwdriver-tight, and leave them there. This is covered in the instructions Bill mentioned. I second printing them off and following them to the letter.

Ken

[Elwood]

I think you want the bridge plate floating level to the body, 3/16" above the plane of the body, not 3/8", which would be way too high.

I think I better avoid numbers in the morning, your right of course...let's not set our DF's at 3/8",

Err-wood

[RampageFan]

Great looking guitar, thanks for sharing! As you can tell by my username, I am a Rampage freak! Awesome guitars. I want to add one with the Leo Fender vibrato to the collection one day.

I can't help you with the setup because I've never owned one with that bridge, but the guys here really know their stuff, so follow their lead.

Here's my Rampage collection, as you can see, it's an addiction!


Thanks,
Dave