The place to discuss, post photos, video, and audio of the G&L products (US instruments, stomp boxes, etc.) produced after 1991, including the amps & gear we use with them.
There are two significant issues that require this to go back to G&L before I can accept delivery. Gorgeous guitar, sounds great, but the fret dressing was very rough (visible and tactile tool marks all over the frets - they were not finished) and the neck was not sanded properly (quartersawn neck with end-grain runout that was raised and noticeably rougher). I'm sure it will get sorted out in a hurry. Can't wait to get it back!
That's a beautiful Legacy you have there. I'm surprised by the issues that you're having though, as I just got a new Legacy myself and it couldn't be more perfect (note that mine does not have stainless steel frets, nor a quartersawn neck - not that this should make a difference).
Looking forward to you getting your Legacy back so you can enjoy the he*ll out of it - and give us a tone report. - ed
Beautiful looking Legacy and a great color. But I don't understand how the factory can let something like this out the door and/or the dealer not flagging it? These are not minor flaws that can be easily adjusted or touched up, and between Sergio, Patrick and Steve, you think someone would have caught this? If this left the factory with those issues then Darth and team need to tighten things up. G&L has built a great reputation and are building production guitars that are second to none. Especially in woods and finishes, which put many custom shop Fender's to shame. But QC is the lifeblood of a company like G&L and stuff like this really shouldn't ever happen. In any case I'm sure you'll get things worked out to your satisfaction and be able to enjoy that very sweet Legacy.
The dealer didn't open it. He called me to tell me it was in and let me break the seal. I showed him the fretwork first and he offered to have his tech dress the frets, which I was going to do. But then I felt the neck grain and decided the factory should get this back. The neck will have to be at least partially refinished.
When I worked at a local guitar shop I used to do the same for the customers, but after a few surprises I would open the boxes from the bottom, check that the guitar looked right, and then tape it back up. In any case sounds like things will be put right, but I still don't understand how this could be overlooked at the factory. Wonder if it was finished on a Friday?
tomanche wrote:What I don't understand is that a USA G&L gets dressed by the PLEK machine. How could the fret job be less than stellar?? How could it have marks?
From the G&L website:
"After the PLEK Pro process, the G&L craftsman performs fret and nut finish work for a butter smooth feel and lusterous appearance."
Without further hand work the Plek leaves tool marks. They were level, it seemed, but bending strings was like bending across asphalt. The furthest from "butter smooth" I've experienced in almost 30 years playing and performing. Also saw signs of 0000 steel wool on the pole pieces. That's a definite no-no on SS frets.
Last edited by killerburst on Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
I know that this isn't exactly relevant, but I do not like SS frets at all, personally. I think they suck some warmth from each note, and make the "attack" too percussive for my personal tastes. Given their hardness, it seems that they are also more difficult for guitar craftsmen to work with/on as well. - ed
Well fortunately I am able to get the tones I want from SS frets (as well as with nickel silver frets, FWIW), so that is all that is important to me. But perceived tonal idiosyncrasies aside, the reason I prefer SS frets has nothing to do with tone. I love the way a well-dressed, freshly polished fret feels. Nickel silver frets feel that way after they are dressed. And then they oxidize. The oxidation results in a slightly gritty texture to the surface of the fret. I always hated that and durring my busiest playing period (3-5 gigs per week) I was changing strings and dressing my frets once or twice a week. 0000 steel wool was a staple part of my tool kit. Then in 2002 Tom Anderson changed to SS frets. I bought a Hollow Drop Top from Manny's. That was the first of many SS-fretted guitars. I have sold almost all of my NS guitars and won't be buying anymore. The addition of SS frets to the G&L price list is what brought me here. Without that option, I would not have placed this order. So, in a nutshell, their resistance to oxidation is the reason I choose stainless steel frets.
As to the difficulty for craftsmen, that may be. I presume that is why G&L charges such a hefty premium (relative to other companies who offer the option). And now having agreed to pay that premium on my special ordered guitar, I expect that extra effort to result in a fret finish at least comparable to those on standard nickel G&L frets. This guitar fell short.
zapcosongs wrote:I know that this isn't exactly relevant, but I do not like SS frets at all, personally. I think they suck some warmth from each note, and make the "attack" too percussive for my personal tastes. Given their hardness, it seems that they are also more difficult for guitar craftsmen to work with/on as well. - ed
You certainly deserve to have the guitar you want the way you want it, and I'm confident that it will come to be. I'm looking forward to that day as you are. May it be sooner rather than later. - ed
zapcosongs wrote:You certainly deserve to have the guitar you want the way you want it, and I'm confident that it will come to be. I'm looking forward to that day as you are. May it be sooner rather than later. - ed
Thanks, Ed. I have no doubt I will get the guitar back ASAP and will be thrilled with it. Will update this thread with better pics and a review. Maybe even a video.
I'm curious about an update on this. The specs you ordered are exactly what I'm about to order and now I'm a bit worried that they aren't finishing or running them properly.
I used to run a Plek machine. You set it at a different speed for SS frets, which maybe they didn't do. A Plek is also just a CNC File for all intents, and you still have to understand what is required for good fretwork when you program the dress or you'll get crap results. Failure to understand how to properly dress frets either by hand or by Plek is the #1 reason I see so many craptastic factory Plek jobs, but it isn't the Plek's fault, its purely operator ignorance.
Update: They sent the guitar back with slightly better fret dressing, still not great, but now they were not level and there was fretting out. Also the rough sanding on the neck was addressed in one area but not near the body, which led me to assume they didn't even take the neck off to sand it. It was returned again and I do not own a G&L at this time. It is a shame because it sounded and felt great to play (aside from the issues described). I hope to see another G&L with correctly finished stainless frets someday and will consider giving it another try at that time. I will say that their standard instruments are exceptional, especially given their reasonable cost.
Wow that sucks. How hard was it to return it? I'm sort of scared now to do the order, I was also going to get a #1a quarter sawn stainless. Can't believe they let it leave the factory not once but twice with major issues. That doesn't speak well to their current QC. I recently saw a 2010, supposedly plekked, with a 1b neck and absolutely atrocious fretwork. It's not hard to do mediocre fretwork with a Plek if you don't know what you're doing, but its exceptionally hard to do horrible fretwork with a Plek unless you just flat out don't give a F.
The situation described here is so outside of what I have personally experienced, I'm not sure what to make of it.
Do you have any better pictures documenting the problems before and after getting the instrument back? I'd love to see more of what you're talking about.
On one hand, my heart goes out to you. On the other, it's not unheard of for competitors to take grievances real or imagined to places like this. I'm just honestly not sure what to make of this; it's virtually unbelievable to me.
The instruments coming from G&L these days really are top notch and a great value as far as I am aware. I'm still blown away by my new-ish Legacy each time I pick her up. Not only did it arrive from the dealer literally perfect in every respect, I have not needed to make a single adjustment - and it's been more than two years (and she's not even quartersawn of neck)!
Regardless, I hope you give G&L another try (seriously). If you have any problems, I hereby promise to help you work with the Company to make it right. I have nothing to lose, and your gain could be epic. You just never know.... Ever tried a Bluesboy??? - ed
Ray Barbee Music wrote:Wow that sucks. How hard was it to return it? I'm sort of scared now to do the order, I was also going to get a #1a quarter sawn stainless. Can't believe they let it leave the factory not once but twice with major issues. That doesn't speak well to their current QC. I recently saw a 2010, supposedly plekked, with a 1b neck and absolutely atrocious fretwork. It's not hard to do mediocre fretwork with a Plek if you don't know what you're doing, but its exceptionally hard to do horrible fretwork with a Plek unless you just flat out don't give a F.
The trick is, not to have emotional connection to the guitar. You get, it has some problems, return it!
Don't do what I did. Keep the guitar, send to luthier, try mods to fix what you think is a minor fix.
My new 2011 SS fret guitar, needed some fret dressing at the luthier. Which made me think, what purpose does Plek have?
Its not the emotional connection, its the issue of how hard is it to return a custom order that has issues.
ABOUT PLEK, READ PLEASE: A Plek machine is capable of amazing fretwork. I used to run one, I know. When I ran guitars to my specs on a Plek, the results were beyond stunning. When other people ran them.....sometimes not. The PROBLEM you see with a lot of plekked guitars is that the tech running it either doesn't know what is required to get great playability from fretwork and so has no frickin idea how to program the dress, or just doesn't give a damn. In a production environment, they run a lot of guitars across these things and often they DO NOT take the time to do it right. That seems to be the problem at G&L, unfortunately.
Why G&L has a Plek machine if they aren't going to bother to use it right, I don't know, given it is a $100k+ investment. Back in the Dale era and a little beyond, their factory fretwork when new was great. At some point they lost the guys that knew how to do it, and for a while their factory fretwork was awful. So they got the Plek, I thought that would cure it. And it CAN cure it, but you have to 1) Know what to tell it to do in the first place, 2) take the time to do it right. Obviously there is a failure on 1) or 2).
As far as manufacturers who use a Plek, I've seen the best results from Gibson. I've seen perfectly Plekked Gibsons from the factory, I've seen a lot that were extremely good, and only a few that were so-so. None that flat out sucked. Suhr, I've seen only mediocre results (given that it's plekked, for hand results they would be good but not wow great) where I had to touch them up later by hand, and frankly, Suhr has been using one of those long enough to know how to use it properly, they just don't. G&L obviously has issues. I've worked on some newer G&Ls that has pretty bad fretwork, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt and chalked it up to maybe the frets moving after the plek job, etc. Now I'm not sure, I've seen a few stories like this now, there are 2 in this thread alone, and I have to wonder, why even have a Plek if you're going to produce bad fretwork. Just as a marketing tool? Customers won't be fooled after the fact if the fretwork still sucks.
It also speaks to their QC, they obviously aren't catching things like bad neck sanding and poorly leveled frets or even big toolmarks on frets at the factory. I'd expect that in say, Vietnam, but not in Fullerton. I hope someone high up at G&L reads this, takes note, and fixes the issue.
You mentioned Gibson. Would you say their being the source for the best PLEK jobs you have seen is an exception? Were these random models or was there anything that set the guitars apart from the typical construction line? Just wondering because there is so much out there describing their QC problems. I'd like to buy a Les Paul, however, with all of the good and bad periods to know of, inflated pricing and quality issues I am afraid I would be throwing money a lot of away.
I have been following this thread with interest and really wasn't going to comment. But as usual, I take everyones comments seriously and look in to it with my own guitars. Upon inspecting them all closely, here is what I have noticed. I have 9 new American G&L's since 2009. They all have very good fret work. I do not have any stainless steel G&Ls. I use low action and if there are fret issues it shows. I would like to know more about what is considered bad fret work. As I understand and correct me if I am wrong, the Plek machine is used to mill the frets level and the radius. In looking at several guitars tonight I noticed lines on a very few frets that are 90 degrees across the frets. The crown on these frets is smooth and it looks like a fretwire manufacturing issue. I found this on most of my guitars including the G&Ls ,Fenders, the Suhr, Grosh, Gadow and the worst was the Gibson. Yet the crown of the fret is smooth and crowned as it should be. I use a 4" straight edge and check the guitars when I buy them and am to doing my initial setup. This tells me if the frets are level down the fretboard. I do this while adjusting the relief as close to flat as I can. I have one G&L Legacy that was bought by a musician in the cities and he never used it but took it to a Luthier who is reportedly one of the best. He has the frets leveled, pickups replaced, an Ervanna nut installed and did not like the guitar. He had never owned an S type guitar and just didn't like it. It was also a heavy Legacy at 8 lbs 13 oz. I traded him a Music Man JP and he had it on CL the next day. That reworked guitar had the same fret appearance as the other G&Ls that I have. I have a Parker Southern Nitefly with stainless frets and they are perfect to look at, no lines or anything but smooth. It is also one of the best playing necks I have ever played. So I am wondering about the issues we are talking about and specifically what are we talking about. Are the frets not level? The original poster, I believe, thought that they were level but not polished well enough. I guess that I am trying to quantify what the issues really are. There is no doubt in my mind that if G&L has QC issues they will address but what specifically is the issue? Leveling, dress or ?? I have had to dress frets on a couple of Tributes and after dressing, they were very playable instruments. If the problems are on Stainless Steel only, then I have no experience with G&L and apologize for asking the questions. Have a great weekend everyone! -- Darwin
Last edited by darwinohm on Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This thread is weird - it went a year or so without an update? No picks of the bad fretwork?
Now G&L has massive quality control issues and we should believe they are either too stupid to operate their Plek machine or they just don't give an eff?
I'm pretty sure G&L is selling more than a couple guitars a year. This forum is clearly linked from their customer support page. Wouldn't we see a plethora of rage-infused threads if this type of workmanship was the norm?
Maybe this guitar was not handled well, that could be true, but if you're gonna assert that G&L doesn't care or is too stupid to make a well dressed guitar please provide some proof.
bloodied_fingers wrote:This thread is weird - it went a year or so without an update? No picks of the bad fretwork?
Maybe it is a little odd that the OP didn't post for a year (last post was Sept. 17 2012) but was here to respond to a request for an update that the OP was supposed to provide including pictures. The update does not include pictures and now the guitar is gone. The gap in posting is probably nothing.
bloodied_fingers wrote:massive quality control issues
It doesn't help making such a distorted statement like this.
The thread has been talking about the handling of one guitar. The problem with the other guitar mentioned in this thread was not described in detail so we can't assume it is the same problem, even slipping through the cracks or blatantly missing something. Based on the information presented so far the common link is each had a fret related problem and all guitars are supposed to be QC'd. There isn't anything thus far suggesting a "massive quality control issue."
#1
killerburst wrote:They were level, it seemed, but bending strings was like bending across asphalt. The furthest from "butter smooth" I've experienced in almost 30 years playing and performing. Also saw signs of 0000 steel wool on the pole pieces. That's a definite no-no on SS frets..........the fret dressing was very rough (visible and tactile tool marks all over the frets - they were not finished) and the neck was not sanded properly (quartersawn neck with end-grain runout that was raised and noticeably rougher).... Update: They sent the guitar back with slightly better fret dressing, still not great, but now they were not level and there was fretting out. Also the rough sanding on the neck was addressed in one area but not near the body, which led me to assume they didn't even take the neck off to sand it.
#2
meowmix wrote:My new 2011 SS fret guitar, needed some fret dressing at the luthier. Which made me think, what purpose does Plek have?
I did a search on the forum for a similar guitar to the one I was going to order and found the OP's post. I asked for and update, he responded. He is probably subscribed to the thread and gets an email when someone responds. No conspiracy involved.
He has issues twice that shouldn't have passed QC. 1st time, it had a poorly sanded neck and tool marks and unpolished frets. We can't assume they were level or not as the roughness probably made them unplayable in any case. After the guitar came back the second time, the sanding issue was STILL there, and while the frets were better polished, they weren't properly level.
That shouldn't happen, it wouldn't happen if I were doing the QC, would it happen if you were?
Another poster noted that his plekked stainless frets were so out of level they needed to be leveled after the fact.
Personally, I haven't worked on that many G&Ls made since the Plek was put into service, they just aren't that popular here in Nashville (weird I know, right?). The ones I have worked on did not have good fret leveling, but they weren't new from the factory so I could maybe assume the frets had moved since plekking (which still shouldn't happen if they are properly installed and glued). The out-of-level issues were not due to wear. There was virtually no fretwear on the guitars in question.
So I have to say, that gives me pause.
Is it a "massive QC Issue?" In toto I don't know, it sure was for the OP. It was for the other poster.
Also, when people say "I keep my action low" that doesn't mean anything. I've seen that description applied to a string height of .09" above the 14th. That ain't low, objectively. If you're used to playing a bad import acoustic with action .15" or more above the frets, then it might seem that way. But most people wouldn't call it that. Without a metric, your process is necessarily out of control (Demming). I can tell you exactly what height to the nearest .0025" I set things and what the results are. The guitars I mentioned where I saw big issues still had very unacceptable buzz and fretting out even with the Low E .08" above the fret, which is a medium to high medium action. A properly done fret job, by Plek or Hand, on a 12" radius can give you very clean action with the low E at .05-.055" and the high E at .0375" to .04" at the 14th fret. That is of course, with reasonably good technique. If you flail the strings and use too much pick, even .1" on perfect frets will buzz badly. A Plek is capable of even more than that if you use it to properly taper the radius and add the correct fall-away for a low action setting. But the guitars I saw were worse than Fender USA's hand work, which I already find unacceptable. The Mexican ones tend to be better.
bloodied_fingers wrote:massive quality control issues
It doesn't help making such a distorted statement like this.
The thread has been talking about the handling of one guitar. The problem with the other guitar mentioned in this thread was not described in detail so we can't assume it is the same problem, even slipping through the cracks or blatantly missing something. Based on the information presented so far the common link is each had a fret related problem and all guitars are supposed to be QC'd. There isn't anything thus far suggesting a "massive quality control issue."
Hmm.. maybe I read Ray's comments incorrectly, but here is what he said - and it seems to me more an indictment of G&L's fretwork and quality control in general.
Ray Barbee Music wrote:Why G&L has a Plek machine if they aren't going to bother to use it right, I don't know, given it is a $100k+ investment. Back in the Dale era and a little beyond, their factory fretwork when new was great. At some point they lost the guys that knew how to do it, and for a while their factory fretwork was awful. So they got the Plek, I thought that would cure it. And it CAN cure it, but you have to 1) Know what to tell it to do in the first place, 2) take the time to do it right. Obviously there is a failure on 1) or 2).
...snip...
G&L obviously has issues. I've worked on some newer G&Ls that has pretty bad fretwork, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt and chalked it up to maybe the frets moving after the plek job, etc. Now I'm not sure, I've seen a few stories like this now, there are 2 in this thread alone, and I have to wonder, why even have a Plek if you're going to produce bad fretwork. Just as a marketing tool? Customers won't be fooled after the fact if the fretwork still sucks.
It also speaks to their QC, they obviously aren't catching things like bad neck sanding and poorly leveled frets or even big toolmarks on frets at the factory. I'd expect that in say, Vietnam, but not in Fullerton. I hope someone high up at G&L reads this, takes note, and fixes the issue.
Ray flat-out states these faults are exclusively due to one of two systematic and willful decisions: either G&L is too stupid to understand the Plek machine, or G&L doesn't care.
I don't see his comments to refer to just this guitar, or even these two guitars. These statements are being cast the the integrity of the workers and at least the QC system of G&L.
Ray Barbee Music wrote:I did a search on the forum for a similar guitar to the one I was going to order and found the OP's post. I asked for and update, he responded. He is probably subscribed to the thread and gets an email when someone responds. No conspiracy involved.
He has issues twice that shouldn't have passed QC. 1st time, it had a poorly sanded neck and tool marks and unpolished frets. We can't assume they were level or not as the roughness probably made them unplayable in any case. After the guitar came back the second time, the sanding issue was STILL there, and while the frets were better polished, they weren't properly level.
That shouldn't happen, it wouldn't happen if I were doing the QC, would it happen if you were?
Another poster noted that his plekked stainless frets were so out of level they needed to be leveled after the fact.
Personally, I haven't worked on that many G&Ls made since the Plek was put into service, they just aren't that popular here in Nashville (weird I know, right?). The ones I have worked on did not have good fret leveling, but they weren't new from the factory so I could maybe assume the frets had moved since plekking (which still shouldn't happen if they are properly installed and glued). The out-of-level issues were not due to wear. There was virtually no fretwear on the guitars in question.
So I have to say, that gives me pause.
Is it a "massive QC Issue?" In toto I don't know, it sure was for the OP. It was for the other poster.
personally, I'm not going to continue on here, I guess you were maybe talking about this one or two guitars. Doesn't sound like it to me, but I've been wrong before. (once)
As regards Gibson, I see a lot of those since I'm in Nashville. I've worked on a ton of Gibsons, mostly Les Pauls with the odd SG etc thrown in, and I personally own 6. I have no affiliation with the company.
I'll comment on the ones I've seen made in the last couple years. Their QC has become outstanding and the fretwork is stellar. Before that they were more hit and miss, but even in the last say, 7 years, I've seen far more excellent results from Gibson that anyone else
They are doing the best factory fretwork I've seen of any manufacturer currently. They seem to have got the Plek process down. I've seen a number of examples I'd call perfect, most I'd call extremely good. Even the ones I'd consider so-so by what I've come to expect from them are very good by most companies standards.
Their necks/truss rods also work right and I have yet to see one have issues with not straightening out properly, even with very heavy strings (I personally use 13-62 and only play skinny necks).
You see a lot of Gibson bashing on the web, and I attribute it to the following:
1) People pissed they can't afford one. The "hater" syndrome. I don't get this one so much as Gibson makes some excellent guitars under $1000. Also, there are reasons they are expensive. Nitro is expensive to shoot due to hazmat laws and the equipment required to do it legally. They also still use real mahogany, not the fauxhogany other manufacturers call "mahogany" using furniture industry conventions, where the tone of your kitchen chair doesn't matter. That stuff is harder to source and more expensive. Not that all fauxhogany sounds bad, African khaya and Asian agathis (really a species of pine) sound just fine, but they don't sound like swietinia. They sound like khaya and agathis. But if companies said "Hey this Gibson looking/inspired thing is made of Khaya!" they wouldn't sell as many. I'm more into honesty than marketing.
2) People who see stuff posted and mindlessly repeat it without personally having any frickin idea what they are talking about. Mindless sheep. There is more of that on the web than not. Sheep 1: "Gibson sucks!" Sheep 2: "Yeah Gibson sucks!"
3) The finishes. Nitro doesn't have that perfect "soaked in plastic" look. It doesn't shine like poly and doesn't feel like poly and it's a bitch to get "perfect looking" like poly. It does however have it's advantages, and they are well documented and discussed elsewhere. But if people are used to the soaked in poly look, and the vast majority are, they might think at first that nitro doesn't look as 'refined' and therefore there must be a qc issue.
4) Nuts. Gibson still uses, for whatever hair brained reason, plastic (corian) nuts. Stupid IMO. It would cost them maybe another $1 per guitar, if that, to use graphtech or bone. Plastic is sticky and doesn't stay in tune well and doesn't sound great either. Why they continue to put the equivalent of $50 budget tires on Lamborghinis, I have no idea. They also don't cut the slots correctly, but then again, I have yet to see any guitar from any make where I thought the nut slots were good from the factory.
5) Factory "setup". This isn't just a Gibson thing. This is also an oxymoron. There is no such animal, it's a myth. All new guitars need a setup, like all off-the-rack suits need a tailoring. If you buy one and find it plays the way you want, congrats, you have an off-the rack taste and happened to hit the random jackpot, because no two are even the same. The question to me as a tech is, how well is it made such that I can set it up any way a customer wants without having to do additional fretwork, bridge work, etc etc. So off the rack, a Gibson or any guitar plays pretty meh or just bad. But with very little work, a newer Gibson will play incredibly well. When a customer brings me a Gibson to set up, I know its going to be a painless job. When I see a Fender walk in the door, I know its going to be a pain and more than likely require a phone call from me recommending fretwork of some sort unless they like the action particularly high.
6) The past. There was certainly a time in their history they were making sub par guitars. That sort of thing can stick with you. Currently they are making truly excellent guitars, and you don't have to buy an expensive one to get that. 2 I own were under $1K new and both are outstanding, and I don't hand out praise lightly. If the girl used to be large with lots of zits but she is the prom queen now, would you still talk about how ugly she is, or would you bang her if you got the chance? Damn right you'd bang her!
bloodied_fingers wrote:Ray flat-out states these faults are exclusively due to one of two systematic and willful decisions: either G&L is too stupid to understand the Plek machine, or G&L doesn't care.
I don't see his comments to refer to just this guitar, or even these two guitars. These statements are being cast the the integrity of the workers and at least the QC system of G&L.
Because Ray says there could only be one possible explanation we should accept your experience as an example of what has been the case with every other G&L with stainless steel frets?
Ray Barbee Music wrote:Is it a "massive QC Issue?" In toto I don't know, it sure was for the OP. It was for the other poster.
It should be quite obvious that there is a huge difference between suggesting there is a massive quality issue with a company vs. one person feeling their experience is a massive quality issue.
Making such an argument serves only to cloud responsibility for a potentially inflammatory accusation.
We all need to take care and act responsibly when making statements about what has actually occurred and been said.
There are a lot of innocent people that could feel the consequences of loose talk.
personally, I'm not going to continue on here, I guess you were maybe talking about this one or two guitars. Doesn't sound like it to me, but I've been wrong before. (once)
No, I'm talking about a sample and the results of that sample. Is it representative? I don't know, it isn't a very large sample, but it is the sample I have seen personally or seen posted about. I wish I had a larger sample, but like I said, I just don't see that many G&Ls come through the door. You might consider that inconsequential. I'd consider it something to think about because I'm getting ready to order one and I can tell you, in no case should those things have got by QC. The OP was very polite about it the 2nd time around.
I would ask you again, should a guitar like the one the OP posted about have left the factory not only once but twice? None of the fret issues I've seen should have passed QC either, and they were not stainless frets. Also, given G&L charges $400 retail for stainless, they should spend the time to get it right the first time.
We have only heard the OP's version of one side of what happened with that guitar. What doesn't support the assumption that this is a widespread problem is that there are only a few random complaints about G&L's QC and everyone is not reporting that their guitars have problems when they receive a brand new G&L. In my unrelated work and in more than several fields I have observed one unfortunate owner's item mishandled in a series of atypical events as if it was cursed. It does happen and more often than you would think. We don't know why this happened to this guitar. As far as I can tell there is no evidence that it is typical of G&L.
I wasn't going to continue on here, but I like you Salmon, so I wanted to clarify -
I was not ever saying there were quality control issues with G&L. I was saying quite the opposite.
I was saying that calling out the QC, competence or diligence of G&L is irresponsible when based two issues.
If you read my whole first post in this thread the 'massive quality control issues' was a question - based on Ray's assertion that either G&L don't care or are incompetent. I thought that was clear in my post when I asked for evidence.
I never made a distorted statement - I asked a question in disbelief. I don't believe G&L has chronic quality issues.
"Ray did an amp mod for me and when I got it back, it was spitting sparks and had no clean headroom. I sent it back. When I got it back, there were fewer sparks flying out of the back but it sounded like crap and had only slightly more clean headroom"'
I'd be all over it. First of all, it wouldn't have happened in the first place. Second, if it had somehow been damaged in shipping, and I got it back, it for damn sure wouldn't go out again like that.
So it may be "only a few ever went out like that" (doubt it), or more likely, only a small percentage go out like that, but honestly, NONE should go out like that, especially twice. Unfinished frets and bad sanding don't happen in shipping. We aren't talking about tributes, or Mexican fenders, etc. We're talking about an expensive, custom ordered USA made guitar. There shouldn't be lapses in QC like that, even if it's only a small percentage of the time.
based on Ray's assertion that either G&L don't care or are incompetent
But obviously in the OP's case they certainly were one, the other, or both, not once, but twice.
I never said they were *ALL* the time, or even most of the time. As I noted above, its probably a small percentage. But obviously, things are getting through that shouldn't.
For anyone who was concerned about the elapsed time between my posts, the explanation is simple (as one poster already guessed - I got an email that the thread had received a reply). I posted initially because I was excited about getting my new guitar and wanted to share my excitement with (other) enthusiasts of G&L. The guitar turned out to be less than acceptable and I eventually returned it. I didn't think to update the thread until I just got the email and saw the post asking for an update. I have no ill will whatsoever to G&L, nor do I wish to cast aspersions on their customer service or workmanship, beyond what I already reported here. I think the guitars they make are excellent, as a rule, but in this case I was let down. Having played many of them with nickel silver frets and not experiencing any issues like this before (or since), I can only assume that stainless steel frets are/were posing some difficulties for the G&L techs. Hopefully it was a learning experience for them, and as I already said, I look forward to seeing another example in the future and I will reevaluate with an open mind, when that time comes.
Ray Barbee Music wrote: But obviously, things are getting through that shouldn't.
Agreed.
Fact: I bought 4 new G&Ls in the past 3 years. 1 has problems.
2 have SS frets. The second one I have not brought to the luthier for a setup. It seemed fine to me right out of the box, so I did not feel the need. I can always go, and see what he says.
The problem child needed minor SS fret dressing. The problem child has a bigger SS fret issue than dressing. I do not know how G&L operates so I can't comment more than than.
This thread started in August of 2012, it is now November 2013. The build sheet on the guitar in question states that Sergio Curioso was the Plek and Fret Tech, Steve Grom was the Evaluation Technician and Patrick McKee was the assembly and setup guy.
Steve is no longer with the company. Patrick is one of the best assembly and setup guys G&L has, if I was having a guitar built, he'd be the guy I'd pick. Sergio is still there and well regarded to the best of my knowledge. SS frets have been a challenge for them, but they are resolute about not letting stuff leave that isn't working. I have been waiting for my own special build WR for some time. It has a #2 neck and originally spec'd with SS frets- a combination they don't typically offer. Two things; one they were willing to trying to accommodate me even though they exclude the combo in their catalog. The other, they would not let the guitar hit the door until it was perfect. We ended up deciding to go with nickel, the round radius of a #2 doesn't allow the stainless to laydown right. All things considered, my customer service experience is unparalleled.
