Kink in strings at nut, tuners appear to be off center?

[jwmallett]

I have a left hand legacy I bought a couple of years ago. I have put more time into this guitar than all of my others put together. I have learned alot from this forum and about this particular guitar in general. I have practiced making a few nuts to remedy the issue of string pinching on the nut. I have come close but still have string binding at one point or another and more so on the g b and e strings. I have noticed the from the bridge to the nut, is perfectly straight. The distance from high E to edge of neck and low E to edge of neck are good, so the neck is straight in regards to how it is bolted to the body.

I feel the root of the problem is that, from the bridge as the string passes over the nut toward the tuners, the edge of the tuner where the string will rest is offset from the nut, causing the string to bend as it lies across the nut. Obviously this causes an unbalance and extra friction on one side which makes string binding very likely, at least logically speaking. I have used graphite and lube and it doesn't solve the issue. Holding the guitar as normal, the D string is perfectly straight and further from that string the problem increases slightly from one string to the next..The g b and e strings bend downward, and the low e and a strings bend upward. I have changed the tuners to locking Schallers, but this issue was present before I changed them.

So assuming strings that are straight from the nut to the tuner will result in less friction better balance and presumable less or no tuning issues, perhaps there is a miscalculation in how the holes were drilled. Since the D string is straight shifting all the tuning holes from that point a couple of degrees or so in a clockwise direction( since I am a lefty), would correct the issue. If this is the case then the angle of the headstock (the straight line that the tuners traverse), would be lessened by a few degrees so the tuners continue to look straight along the headstock.(the last statement would only apply to the factory seeing and correcting the issue prior to holes being drilled)

I was thinking of using a laser to find where the edge of each tuner would need to be in order to correct this, then determining how much material to remove from the holes and possibly fill in the other side with filler, although it probably wouldnt be enough to see it under the tuning washer and my schallers have a screw to fasten it to the neck which should hold fine with the help of the tuning nut being properly fastened...


Looking for feedback on if this is unusual in my case and/or if doing this would be of some benefit. Admittedly, the new tuners shafts are VERY slightly thicker than the old tuners but the misalignment is greater than that, as I said it was this way before they were changed. Thanks for all of your help and time.

[huck]

I'm a lefty too!, and what you are saying is that this miss alignment is a miss drilled tuner holes? I don't own a legacy but have a few
asat's and tele's and acoustics, I'm looking at one of my acoustic guitars and the tuners on those don't lign up strait with the nut slots
so I would think that would not be a issue to worry about? but if indeed it is drilled wrong is it still under warranty?
PS, is it a tribute model or USA?, anyway someone should be along soon that has a legacy to comp' with it!
Good luck on what you find out.. oh, and I would not redrill the tuner holes, that could open a whole new can of worms?

[louis cyfer]

a picture is worth a 1000 words. also, have you taken the guitar to a pro to check out the setup?

[jwmallett]

I tried to take a picture, it won't show on my iphone. No, I haven't taken it to a pro. For one, there are none in the area. I wouldnt jump right in to do the tuner holes, and thanks for the advice. It is a USA legacy, and even if they aren't typically in line perfectly. Why wouldn't they be, I mean, everything else is so perfect and it does seem logical them passing through a slot perfectly straight is far superior to creating a kink. Anyway, if anything this is really about gathering information and advice. As far as a pro looking at it goes, I know this will come off as hard headed, but I have had other guitars and had "pros" look at them, and well, I seriously doubt they would accomplish anything, at least anywhere around here. After several experiences and throwing away $$$ in the process, I have learned how to setup my own instruments and feel I do it well. I admit my Legacy is the first tremolo I owned and had to learn how to set that up, and also shaping and cutting my own nuts.

[Elwood]

I remember Craig mentioning some guitars a while back got out the door
that had a misalignment issue. IIRC it was the low E that was most prominently 'out'.
He reported it was corrected .
It could be that your guitar was part of that batch, I don't remember the dates he
mentioned.

[louis cyfer]

I tried to take a picture, it won't show on my iphone. No, I haven't taken it to a pro. For one, there are none in the area. I wouldnt jump right in to do the tuner holes, and thanks for the advice. It is a USA legacy, and even if they aren't typically in line perfectly. Why wouldn't they be, I mean, everything else is so perfect and it does seem logical them passing through a slot perfectly straight is far superior to creating a kink. Anyway, if anything this is really about gathering information and advice. As far as a pro looking at it goes, I know this will come off as hard headed, but I have had other guitars and had "pros" look at them, and well, I seriously doubt they would accomplish anything, at least anywhere around here. After several experiences and throwing away $$$ in the process, I have learned how to setup my own instruments and feel I do it well. I admit my Legacy is the first tremolo I owned and had to learn how to set that up, and also shaping and cutting my own nuts.

without a pic it is very difficult to help, as seeing what is happening is needed. i doubt anyone a g&l could help without pics.

[NickHorne]

Whether the tuners are offset and, if so, how they got there, is irrelevant unless you intend to change the neck!
The reality is that it doesn't matter in practice; otherwise, all Gibsons, Martins etc etc etc would be forever hopeless to keep in tune, and it's just not so.
I would suggest that you finesse your nut slots a little more, along these lines (I always do this when I make nuts, even on "straight-pull" pegheads):
First, gently remove any lube you may have put in the slots (I use tiny amounts of lighter fuel - naphtha- be SURE not to use acetone or anything hazardous to your finish), so that you can get to work again without your files being lubed. I am assuming that you have some nut files. You don't need a full set, you can do it all with a .013, a .028 plus perhaps a .046 (these aren't even definitive sizes - anything close will get you there).
You're going to be working on the TUNER end of each slot only, gently flaring its last millimetre or so into a little "trumpet bell" sort of shape, easing the transition from the straight slot into turning the slight angle to the tuner post. You will be working the file somewhat sideways and around, and not just straight down into the slot.
This is NOT a big flare, just an easing.
When you've done, brush the dust well out of the slots, and get some old strings. Cut a length, of around 8 inches, from each, enough to hold an end in each hand and have a 2 or 3 inches free in between, that you can steer with your thumbs. Your going to use these to "floss" and fine-finish the respective slot of each string, with the help of a little metal polish. I use "Brasso" here in UK, it's a gentle abrasive fluid that can be removed easily when you're finished. You only need a very small amount; I just get a little on a cotton bud and transfer from this to the string I'm using, just over an inch or two's length of it. Put the Brasso'd bit of string in its slot, and move it back and forth, being sure of two things:
1: That you work "down" towards the tuners, and never so as to round-over the slot's edge on the fretboard side;
2: That you polish the "flare" shape we just made, with similar motion to what you used with the files, as well as gently polishing the whole slot.
Now clean the Brasso out of the slots, I do this as one pass with dry cotton gently wiped through the slots, then another with a LITTLE naphtha on the cotton.
Let it dry off for a couple minutes, then give each slot a SMALL dose of Nut Sauce as you fit new strings.
Stretch them in gently but repeatedly until they stop drooping, and you should be good to go and go.
I bend all over all my guitars, electric and acoustic, G&L, Gibson, Danelectro, all shapes and sizes, trems and B-bender too, and they have all been made to really STAY in tune by thorough attention to making the string path free-running.
Persistence and patience! You will get there!

[huck]

Whether the tuners are offset and, if so, how they got there, is irrelevant unless you intend to change the neck!
The reality is that it doesn't matter in practice; otherwise, all Gibsons, Martins etc etc etc would be forever hopeless to keep in tune, and it's just not so.
I would suggest that you finesse your nut slots a little more, along these lines (I always do this when I make nuts, even on "straight-pull" pegheads):
First, gently remove any lube you may have put in the slots (I use tiny amounts of lighter fuel - naphtha- be SURE not to use acetone or anything hazardous to your finish), so that you can get to work again without your files being lubed. I am assuming that you have some nut files. You don't need a full set, you can do it all with a .013, a .028 plus perhaps a .046 (these aren't even definitive sizes - anything close will get you there).
You're going to be working on the TUNER end of each slot only, gently flaring its last millimetre or so into a little "trumpet bell" sort of shape, easing the transition from the straight slot into turning the slight angle to the tuner post. You will be working the file somewhat sideways and around, and not just straight down into the slot.
This is NOT a big flare, just an easing.
When you've done, brush the dust well out of the slots, and get some old strings. Cut a length, of around 8 inches, from each, enough to hold an end in each hand and have a 2 or 3 inches free in between, that you can steer with your thumbs. Your going to use these to "floss" and fine-finish the respective slot of each string, with the help of a little metal polish. I use "Brasso" here in UK, it's a gentle abrasive fluid that can be removed easily when you're finished. You only need a very small amount; I just get a little on a cotton bud and transfer from this to the string I'm using, just over an inch or two's length of it. Put the Brasso'd bit of string in its slot, and move it back and forth, being sure of two things:
1: That you work "down" towards the tuners, and never so as to round-over the slot's edge on the fretboard side;
2: That you polish the "flare" shape we just made, with similar motion to what you used with the files, as well as gently polishing the whole slot.
Now clean the Brasso out of the slots, I do this as one pass with dry cotton gently wiped through the slots, then another with a LITTLE naphtha on the cotton.
Let it dry off for a couple minutes, then give each slot a SMALL dose of Nut Sauce as you fit new strings.
Stretch them in gently but repeatedly until they stop drooping, and you should be good to go and go.
I bend all over all my guitars, electric and acoustic, G&L, Gibson, Danelectro, all shapes and sizes, trems and B-bender too, and they have all been made to really STAY in tune by thorough attention to making the string path free-running.
Persistence and patience! You will get there!

That is some great advice for all of us!, I'm not the original poster of the Q, but just wanted to say Thanks!

[Elwood]

Good stuff Nick !!
I've recently found that a magnifying glass on a stand ( and extra good lighting )
makes shaping nuts and frets a joy.

[Craig]

I remember Craig mentioning some guitars a while back got out the door
that had a misalignment issue. IIRC it was the low E that was most prominently 'out'.
He reported it was corrected .
It could be that your guitar was part of that batch, I don't remember the dates he
mentioned.

This only applied to the F-100 Revisited model, see: Re: Friday July 6th.

[Craig]

I tried to take a picture, it won't show on my iphone. No, I haven't taken it to a pro. For one, there are none in the area. I wouldnt jump right in to do the tuner holes, and thanks for the advice. It is a USA legacy, and even if they aren't typically in line perfectly. Why wouldn't they be, I mean, everything else is so perfect and it does seem logical them passing through a slot perfectly straight is far superior to creating a kink. Anyway, if anything this is really about gathering information and advice. As far as a pro looking at it goes, I know this will come off as hard headed, but I have had other guitars and had "pros" look at them, and well, I seriously doubt they would accomplish anything, at least anywhere around here. After several experiences and throwing away $$$ in the process, I have learned how to setup my own instruments and feel I do it well. I admit my Legacy is the first tremolo I owned and had to learn how to set that up, and also shaping and cutting my own nuts.

Please do post a photo showing the alignment. Best would be shooting straight down on the headstock, included the first fret and the top of the headstock in the shot. Make sure to have plenty of light on the headstock.

Here is what my 2008 Legacy with locking tuners headstock looks like:

[Elwood]

This only applied to the F-100 Revisited model, see: Re: Friday July 6th.

Thanks for the memory freshener... I couldn't recall which model/timeline it was.

[yowhatsshakin]

But it wasn't on all F-100 Return Editions. Mine (#2) doesn't have the problem!

- Jos

[darwinohm]

Nor is it on my #21. It is perfect.-- Darwin

[NickHorne]

To briefly revisit nut-making, if I may:
I think I should have mentioned that before the flossing with strings and metal polish, it's a good idea to smooth off the slots a little more abrasively than that. It's often done by wrapping fine wet-or-dry around a narrower nut-file and, while this can work OK, I do find that the paper can fold into a V instead of a U, and not always be doing as much good as one might be thinking. And you need to work out the right file size, based on the paper thickness.... Nowadays I usually just finish up with a few very gentle file strokes, just skimming the tops of any roughnesses, and then on to flossing, and I find this works fine virtually all the time.
Totally agree with Elwood's magnifying glass and lighting. I have a LED fishing-fly-tying light on a little gooseneck, that gives a nice light and virtually zero heat, and I love that.

[jwmallett]

Got a bit of a storm coming in the area so Ive been tied up at work and home, I will get a pic asap. The pic that was taken above looks great and definitely something is happening. I see some interesting stuff on nut finishing, thanks very much for the information, I will definitely give it the attention it deserves when I have more time. I will revisit in the next couple of days or so and thanks so much for the help y'all!