Tim Page's interview with George Fullerton in July 2004

[Craig]

Tim had known George Fullerton for many years and has interviewed him about Leo and G&L several times. In July 2004, Tim was asked by several G&LDPer's if he would ask George if he would answer some questions which had come up during various discussions on the G&LDP. George, being the gracious man that he was, was very willing to answer them all. Here is text of the message which Tim posted with the Q&A's:

George Fullerton Answers Monday Lunch Report Q's!
Tim / Buffalo Bros. on July 15, 2004 at 12:57:53:

Hi Folks:
Good ole' Jay ~ this weeks lunch reporter ~ asked me if I could get answers to the "best" question on the Monday Lunch Report. George Fullerton kindly said he'd be happy to answer all of them! So I did arranged a convenient time for him to do a telephone interview and here are his comments!

I've listed the comments in order of each G&LDP member and this interview was done yesterday ~ July 14th in the morning. George is always very humble, open, honest and flattered that you all care so much about the George & Leo story, G&L and all his life experiences. I hope you all get a chance to meet George as he's simply a warm, nice human being.

And now, the answers:


Boogie Bill:

a) Did they ever think of using the Saddle Lock Bridge concept and applying it to a Dual Fulcrum vibrato?

“We talked about it, but never did anything about. The reason why is there never was a need for it. So no time was spent on it.”

b) Pick one detail he is most proud of?

“I’m really proud of the fact that we did it (G&L) and got away from the Musicman thing which turned sour and started our own company. Getting out of one bad into something better is always rewarding.”

Spideyjg:

a) What’s the biggest “looked good on paper” but didn’t get beyond proto-type because it didn’t work?

“Several of those! It’s hard to pick one. You always come up with things that don’t come out as they don’t prove out testing. But I can’t think of one that’s outstanding. Most of the things we worked we made out of proto-types that evolved into another idea. In fact, must of what we did benefited from this. You start with an idea and try to perfect it. But in that process of buiding proto-types and testing it spawns other ideas so it evolves from one to another.”

Zippy:

a) What made Leo word on guitar of all things when everything was becoming electronic?

“Leo’s life was involved in electronics, particularly in making amplifiers ~ but his love was designing pickups. If you go back to Leo and Doc Kaufmann making lap steels, doing radio repair ~ he was making hand made pickups and putting them in hollowbody guitars. I think it was his first love. And that’s why he spent time so much on that at G&L. That really was what he loved to do.”

Tim – asks ~ “Out of curiousity, since you mentioned amplifiers ~ did you ever talk about making amps at G&L?

“We talked and thought we would eventually do it. There again, that’s a BIG thing to go into. And hard to beat to what we had done in the past. At lot of work physically (tools, equipment, space) not much technically really. And there were so many dime a dozen builders at the time, some good, some bad and many solid state which we felt vacuum tube was the best sounding. So in the 1980’s and early 1990’s we stayed out.”

b) What inspired the thought of the wound coil pickup?

“For many years the wound pickup was made prior to Fender.”

c) Did Leo ever get the bug to play and learn guitar?

“ “No he never did. He’d never even let me show him one chord! “I don’t want to spend my time or learn it" were Leo's own words! He didn’t learn to even tune a guitar until electronic tuners came out! He had absolutely no desire for it!”

Gw:

a) What would Leo or George imagined they would have done if the guitar business didn’t pan out as well as it did?

“Leo ~ I think he would have stayed in it, repairing radio’s until he came into a design of amps or something. Leo had a mind for electronics and to work in them as I. He would have stayed in it one way or the other until he succeeded.

“For me, my original plan was to go into electronics and was in school and was studying electronics working for Lockheed Aircraft part time and that was what I was interested in. Going to night school to learn all I could. Then Leo offered me a job which pulled me out of that. But I would have wound up there – no doubt.”


Emmitt O.:

a) We know the baritone was the LAST guitar, but what was next on the drawing board?

“We didn’t have anything yet that was settled down to build. That baritone we were VERY interested in getting into production. We never started new products until one project was done. Remember, every time you design an instrument there are drawings, engineering drawings, parts tooling and die makers…so that takes a huge amount of time and you don’t spend much time on something else. No idea what we would have done next.”


Bassman:

a) How many proto-types of the Fender Bass were made, and are there any still in existence?

“I don’t think there are any left in existence, Leo ~ when he made a prototype good or bad, as soon as they were done, Leo would have them cut up. He never wanted anyone to see it or have it around. We made more than one ~ the problem wasn’t making a proto-type – it was making every part. Remember ~ the electric bass wasn’t in existence! So we had to not only make pickups, but strings, gears, etc. They didn’t, exist. Making the proto-type was more of a “what to use?” question just to make the parts as there weren't any.”

Bryan T:

a) Did returning to the telecaster shape for the Broadcaster/ASAT bother Leo?

“I think it did a little bit, as Leo said “we don’t want to redo the past” ~ but a lot of people kept asking “when are you going to make a telecaster version”. So we did. Even though the ASAT is better than a Telecaster ~ and I don’t think it made Fender too happy, that we did it. However, the only thing telecaster was the shape on the ASAT Special. Everything else was different.”

b) Does it disappoint you that G&L isn’t as profitable (big?) as Fender?

“Well yes and no. I realize that G&L has good instruments and probably the best you can buy. But to compete against Fender the biggest and largest – it’s hard to go up against a company that size and be equal.

However, I do think if Leo and I had stayed in it, and were younger ~ we would have pressed for it and done it. We came up with a lot of things which Fender even copied. And I believe we would have been the leader of the pack.”

(Tim's comment: I believe that!)

GPD:

a) Leo’s favorite overall design for a guitar?

“I think the Strat was what Leo considered to be his best overall design. The shape, feel, and the way length the strap holder, all about it was comfortable. And he liked the design of the vibrato. See ~ Leo like well made solid parts – regardless of whether it’s a refrigerator or a guitar! He was most proud of the way the Strat was accepted by players.

b) Leo’s favorite overall design for a bass?

“G&L L-2000 was his choice. The P-Bass he was proud of but the L-2000 he liked most. I would definitely say the L-2000.”

c) Leo’s favorite overall design for an amp?

“Hard to say, I don’t know. We made a 4 speaker bassman (4x10) in the early days – Don Randall and Leo wanted to remove it from the line. Freddy and I wanted to keep it. I really think the bassman was a great sounding amplifier. Leo finally agreed with us and it stayed, but he liked the super too. Leo might say the Super.”

d) George – Did you view your job at Fender/Earthwood/Musicman/G&L as a job? Or was it more like a hobby that you got paid to do? Was there ever a time you sat back and said “I’ve got the greatest job in the world?”

"“I looked at it as a job of course ~ because it was a 24 hour a day job! I loved it from the standpoint since as a child I had been into electronics (making radio’s, crystal radios’ and built lots of things) ~ in fact my room was low voltage for all the lights! I had rewired it all using a transformer from 110v to 24v with special light bulbs I could get. I was about 12 years old at the time.”

Tim: So you’ve always loved electronics – it was a job, but a job you loved doing?

“That’s correct.”


Rockchic56:

a) What their favorite band or musician of the last 50 years and why?

“Leo personal favorite was Bob Wills, he did a song called ‘Faded love’ that you may be familiar with. Bob Wills wrote and recorded. It was one of Leo’s favorite songs and they were good friends too. If we could talk to Leo he’s say that ~ Bob Wills.

(George) “I don’t have a favorite, there are so many. Sons of Pioneers of course I know and still am friends with them all. Eddie Dean (cowboy/western actor and singer) I also liked. Western Music has always been my favorite. In fact, if it weren’t for C&W music, Fender NEVER would have gotten off the ground. It was Nashville people like Jimmy Bryant who were the first players to start playing and really took to Fender. This pulled them into Nashville – and Nashville became their biggest selling place in the world. And we give them credit for the quick success we had.”

Hardheated Bill:

a) The development of the MFD pickup and how their design is different from other ceramic pickups?

“Well, pickups – like all the Fender pickups, we have pole pieces as the magnet themselves. That is a magnet within itself. There is a north and a south pole. In the center is a dead spot. And if you wind a coil on those magnets like we did at Fender, and you’ve winding some on the north pole, and some on the south pole. We got to thinking wouldn’t it be better if it were all on one pole and that’s how we got to the field coil design.”

Ches:

a) Why did you pick 7.5” and 12” radius?

“We started out with 7.5” radius, then went to 12” because (a) wider space for people with bigger hands, and (b) flatter neck to bend strings. We also made on 24” radius at one time. It’s hard to bend strings on the small sharp radius neck and it frets out. On a flat neck it’s easier. Of course, you can’t cover all the radius possible. You can’t have dozens of different radius necks – it’d be a headache to handle that in a factory!”


Jonbo:

a) Why did you make those funny looking Musicmans after creating one of the most elegant looking guitar designs ever ~ the strat?

“Well (laughs) ~ of course, those guitars at Musicman we made changes as did not want to copy a Strat. And keep in mind we were building it for someone else who also had their ideas. They were fine instruments but I agree certainly not as pretty as a Stratocaster.”

Eddie Guitarman:

a) Why did Leo come to the decision to sell Fender originally?

“Leo was sick. For a long time he would be in bed. He wouldn’t take vacation, didn’t even feel like coming down to the office. I think he felt he was going to die. Leo didn’t want anyone else at the top spot, or running the company at that time. And Don Randall felt, since Leo thought he would pass away and didn’t want anyone to run it, he’d find a buyer. And he did ~ that’s how CBS came into the picture. After Leo got out of it. He found a doctor who was able to find out what the problem was, treat it and solve it.”

b) How did he move to start G&L?

“Musicman was pressing Leo to build instruments for them. We talked to them and designed and set-up a factory. Now, we owned the factory. And built instruments for them. We had 65-70 employees at the time when the separation came about (which is another story).”

“Essentially what Musicman tried to do was buy the factory. We said no. They then tried to talk to Leo into practically giving it to them for free ~ Tom Walker and Forrest White were crazy in Leo’s and my eyes. We said no. After we said no, they tried to force the sale. They knew we worked by the order, so they cut the orders down and they got smaller and smaller to force a sale.”

“We had to lay off people due to the cut backs and finally we had just one employee left. There were just the 3 of us left. Here we had a factory, all this equipment, all set up and bills to pay. Leo and I had already talked about having our own company. And we knew we were going to have to reach that decision.”

Tim: And the Fender non-competition clause with CBS was about to expire.

“Yes. Leo reached the decision on his own. So we started our own company and I’m glad we did.”

c) How did they determined which neck radius to use and why not offer more variations?

(See reply to Ches for Eddie’s answer!)


John B:

a) How would Leo feel about the Tribute line?

In my opinion, the tribute IS a nice guitar, and I am not opposed to it. And to stay afloat you have to do it. That’s the way it is in the business these days.

b) What took so long to make G&L’s ~ which I think are the best guitars?

“After Musicman we had idea’s, but you don’t all of a sudden have an instrument. You have to have ideas, then prototypes, then drawings, get tooling done, have dies made, then build an instrument, then get in the field and field test, plus it takes time to catch on. Of course, we had experience from Fender and Musicman and knew how! But it still took time!”


West Side Duck:

a) Did Leo ever regret selling Fender to CBS?

“I think he did eventually. Not at the time when he was sick. At that time he thought it was the right decision. Leo wanted to be in charge and would never at that time have given in to letting someone else run it. And he was willing to sell it due to health. It was sold not because he wanted to ~ but I think he felt he was dying.

Later on, he definitely regretted it, especially after he saw CBS run it down. He was so angry that’s why he never used his office that CBS had for him at Fender and had one down the street. He wouldn’t have an office at that factory he was so upset.”

b) How did George feel being behind the scene at Fender even though he made major contributions?

“Well, it bothered me. Leo was out front and kept out front ~ which was proper, but I felt bad sometimes I didn’t get credit as there were things that were my ideas. However, I also know this is the way it works and it happens to folks in other businesses as well.”

“In those early days I missed credit ~ because Forrest (White) was so jealous, he wouldn’t give me credit for anything I did. Forrest was a very jealous person. He was brought in afterwards and wasn’t there for the Tele, P-Bass or the Strat. Those first 3 we done before Forrest was on the scene. Yet he’d say he helped design him. Which wasn’t true.

It bugged him that Leo and I were friends, and he would put me down as he was jealous of the friendship Leo and I had. He would even try to stop me from going fishing with Leo. It was silly. But he’s passed on and I think it’s best to let it lie. But it is true that I was bothered by some of it.”

(Note: It's real obvious that George was being very honest here. He has told me in the past he hates to answer these kind of questions as he doesn't like to talk bad of other people, he prefers to concentrate on the accomplishments of the company. But he answered it very openly.)

c) Tell George we hope he’ll be in the Hall of Fame beside Leo one day.

“Well, I really would like to be. After all, I stood the days and the times, held things up and pressed Leo out front too. You know, Leo wasn’t the kind of person who wanted fame. He liked it, but didn’t want to accept it (the praise) and deal with it. He didn’t want to be in a showcase.

In fact, for many years, during early Fender days ~ lots of people didn’t know Leo Fender existed! Since they talked to Don Randall as he was their street guy ~ early on, a lot of people thought Don Randall was the guy behind it all.

Leo didn’t even go to the early shows (NAMM/Conventions). Later on Forrest ~ did go, and so Leo and I started to go as well. That’s when Leo became known.”

Tim/Buffalo Bros:

a) How did Leo get his ideas? Dreams? Fooling around with different things? How did he create?

“Leo just had a creative mind. Not only for guitars and amps – but everything. For example, a guy told me he was in the hardware store, looking for a new refrigerator and this guy told him which one was best and why. The guy went on to explain all the technical reasons and the design and construction of it ~ I asked if it was a salesman. He said ~ No, some guy named Leo Fender.

Leo had a knack for looking at designs from anyone and improving it.

Leo loved boats – he bought several. He’d buy a boat and start looking over it. He would immediately do a drawing and start making ideas of improvements. He bought Stevens Boats ~ built up in Oakland, California. By the time a year came by, he’d turn over the drawings and ideas he had to improve their boats and they adopted them. Next thing you know, Leo bought another boat and did it again. Every time.

Leo redesigned the ribs, hull, and all the new design was Leo’s idea. He’d make pictures of every thing – the screws, the nails, bolts, and then add his own thoughts to it. And they’d incorporate it into their designs. Eventually the designs were practically all Leo’s! You’d think they would have given him a boat for free to field test after that!

Leo had an eye for everything.

Another example – cars! Leo would not buy a car unless he could get underneath it, He’d have them run it up a grease rack and he’d go under and make notes on it or he wouldn’t buy it. Then he would ask things to be changed or corrected or he wouldn’t buy the car.

I remember one time a guy tired to sell a new Cadillac ~ me, Forrest and Leo went to see this new Cadillac. Forrest and I sat in the back. Leo was driving with the salesman in front. Of course, the salesman was pitching the car and the quality. When Leo got out he slammed the door shut and the interior handle flew off and landed into the salesmans lap! Leo said “Is this the good quality you were telling me about?”

Then Leo proceeded to question everything. He asked the salesman what kind of cloth did they use to cover the seats ~ “oil cloth?” The salesman assured it was high quality covering, which Leo replied it was “felt too thin to be of good quality. That was Leo.”

As a final note ~ I would like to thank George Fullerton on for not only his time, but his years of devotion to the music industry. I think West Side Duck is correct ~ George should be in the Hall of Fame ~ maybe we all ought to write letters to suggest that!