BLUES SCALES BOOKS

[asantange]

Hi all,

I'm a recent member and a recent G&L owner. Just picked up an ASAT special in Butterscotch blonde and I love that guitar.

I'm looking to improve my guitar skills, more specifically my awareness of the fretboard and scales knowledge.

I really love blues music and was wondering if anybody had some blues scales books to recommend...

Cheers.

[louis cyfer]

i would highly recommend a good instructor. it will speed up the learning curve in measurably. knowing the scales doesn't mean much, it's how to apply them. you don't want to approach it with scales anyway, much better approach it from a harmonic point of view, targeting the chord tones and elaborating on that.

[asantange]

Thanks for the tip Louis.

I was hoping to find an alternative to getting an instructor, my last instructor was just teaching me songs and I didn't think it really helped my overall knowledge/ability. So I was hoping to use a bit of an aid to refer to when I'm in my room jamming.

But I'll definitely look into other instructors in my area again. I fear that I'm becoming a person that can play songs on my guitar as oppose to knowing how to really play the guitar.

[Ches]

Take a look at Blues You Can Use. They have a series of 2 or 3 books that teach you licks in different styles of blues, and you can play along with a CD. I found them to be very helpful. As an added benefit, I went through them with a teacher. Another book you might enjoy is Fretboard Roadmaps. That one pretty much lays out where the notes fall on the fretboard, along with some other helpful stuff. I never made it too far in that book because I started taking theory lessons. (Put a bullet in my head, please.)

[Dr B]

Its difficult to answer as it depends on your skill level. I would not be against getting a teacher on the basis that one was bad for you.

A good teacher may well be hard to find but they are worth the effort.

I've spent a couple of years learning minor pentatonics / blues scales in a few keys (the shapes). I'm now moving onto major pentatonics and something known as the CAGED system - which everyone tells me helps to open up the fretboard in a new way.

I'm very limited due to being older and only having played for a few years. I have trouble remembering all this stuff, more than playing it.

Check books / resources on the caged system and see how you go - though it might be a stretch if you dont already have the minor pentatonics down.

[louis cyfer]

Thanks for the tip Louis.

I was hoping to find an alternative to getting an instructor, my last instructor was just teaching me songs and I didn't think it really helped my overall knowledge/ability. So I was hoping to use a bit of an aid to refer to when I'm in my room jamming.

But I'll definitely look into other instructors in my area again. I fear that I'm becoming a person that can play songs on my guitar as oppose to knowing how to really play the guitar.

instructor that only teaches songs is a bad one. i tell my students, i can teach you songs, one song at a time, or i can teach you every song. use songs to illustrate specific theory points, and after a couple of months i never teach a song again. i have given them the tools, i make them figure it out.

[meowmix]

Thanks for the tip Louis.
But I'll definitely look into other instructors in my area again. I fear that I'm becoming a person that can play songs on my guitar as oppose to knowing how to really play the guitar.

What about online teachers? Via Skype.
I agree with Louis. Scales? Learn the harmony and play over with melody.

[asantange]

Again, thank you all for your help.

I'll definitely look into the CAGED method, I've heard of it before and heard it helped out quite a bit from others.

I've been playing for about 7 yrs now. I can learn a song, but once I start to hit a solo in it, my abilities break down I can learn it if I dedicate the time, but as I've said I want to know the instrument and not just songs.

Perhaps the recommendations of getting an instructor will be the best route.

In the meantime, does anybody know of any learning aids to then learn the harmonies and melodies?

[meowmix]

Again, thank you all for your help.

I'll definitely look into the CAGED method,

CAGED is the worst system ever. It invites more confusion into the mix.
Stay away from those who teach it.

If you are serious about learning, you are going to have to pay $$$ to get a good teacher.
I have well over 100 music/guitar books. They are used as a supplement to my studies with my teacher. Not the other way around. Get a good teacher.

[louis cyfer]

Again, thank you all for your help.

I'll definitely look into the CAGED method,

CAGED is the worst system ever. It invites more confusion into the mix.
Stay away from those who teach it.

If you are serious about learning, you are going to have to pay $$$ to get a good teacher.
I have well over 100 music/guitar books. They are used as a supplement to my studies with my teacher. Not the other way around. Get a good teacher.

i agree. the caged sucks big time. i don't know who thought that would be helpful. it's basically a system to learn less, not more. very limiting and confusing. if you want to get started, start with music theory. not guitar. music. you want to be a musician who plays guitar, not just a guitar player. you want to learn the notes, the intervals, the relationships, and how it all fits. without a good teacher it is a daunting task.

[Dr B]

Actually Louis (and meowmix) it was me that said the CAGED system might help and I will explain why your comments above are a gross exaggeration and slightly irresponsible in terms of advice to less experienced players.

What you both really mean to say is that it did not work for you, not that it does not work. That's perfectly fine. We all approach the guitar in a different way. We all have different skills and limitations and different aims from what we want to get out of playing.

I know lots of UK-based muscians that teach and used CAGED - with no problem at all. To say 'avoid' teachers that use it is ridiculous. As you are simply drawing on the fact that it did not help you. Its great to give your experience of it, but you need to qualify this as being 'your experience' and stop going around stating things as fact - when they clearly are not.

I'm just starting on CAGED and my comments are based on those around me that are more experienced and that have used it and said it was 'helpful'. There may well have been aspects of it that were less helpful - but the point was it furthered their understanding of the fretboard which has to be a good thing.

If you have other ways of acheiving similar gains via another route - thats great! But the merits of system A do not negate the merits of system B. Both systems have merits and although one may have worked better for you - this is not an objective test of the efficacy of the system.

Apologies for seeming a bit of a pendant, but I'm a scientist, and examining arguments and statements is what I do. Your comments above are 'over-stated'.

On a personal note - I find jamming over backing tracks to be an excellent way to develop 'feel' and technique and its great fun. This means i keep practising which has to be a good thing. However, with few exceptions - knowledge of the fretboard remains limited without complementary information.

Knowing what / where the notes are in different shapes and keys, and how to use them in the context of chord progressions (say to sound more bluesey) in the long term will be more effective than trial and error. However, it takes a broader effort.

Ultimately, I say to less experienced players - find your own way. This is what worked for me (blah blah) - but it might not work for you. Give it a try and see how you get on - but don't worry if it does not work for you and hence - find your own way.

[louis cyfer]

Actually Louis (and meowmix) it was me that said the CAGED system might help and I will explain why your comments above are a gross exaggeration and slightly irresponsible in terms of advice to less experienced players.

What you both really mean to say is that it did not work for you, not that it does not work. That's perfectly fine. We all approach the guitar in a different way. We all have different skills and limitations and different aims from what we want to get out of playing.

I know lots of UK-based muscians that teach and used CAGED - with no problem at all. To say 'avoid' teachers that use it is ridiculous. As you are simply drawing on the fact that it did not help you. Its great to give your experience of it, but you need to qualify this as being 'your experience' and stop going around stating things as fact - when they clearly are not.

I'm just starting on CAGED and my comments are based on those around me that are more experienced and that have used it and said it was 'helpful'. There may well have been aspects of it that were less helpful - but the point was it furthered their understanding of the fretboard which has to be a good thing.

If you have other ways of acheiving similar gains via another route - thats great! But the merits of system A do not negate the merits of system B. Both systems have merits and although one may have worked better for you - this is not an objective test of the efficacy of the system.

Apologies for seeming a bit of a pendant, but I'm a scientist, and examining arguments and statements is what I do. Your comments above are 'over-stated'.

On a personal note - I find jamming over backing tracks to be an excellent way to develop 'feel' and technique and its great fun. This means i keep practising which has to be a good thing. However, with few exceptions - knowledge of the fretboard remains limited without complementary information.

Knowing what / where the notes are in different shapes and keys, and how to use them in the context of chord progressions (say to sound more bluesey) in the long term will be more effective than trial and error. However, it takes a broader effort.

Ultimately, I say to less experienced players - find your own way. This is what worked for me (blah blah) - but it might not work for you. Give it a try and see how you get on - but don't worry if it does not work for you and hence - find your own way.

i have not seen people become musicians with the caged. players, maybe. i have a degree in music, i don't need the caged, i, however understand how it limits you.

when you say it works for you, great. what you don't know is that going about it differently could and would have helped more. you want to learn the fretboard, that does not take long. start sight reading. you will learn very quickly. unfortunately most guitarists don't even dream about becoming musicians. they also don't want to learn to read music, just tabs. take any tab and name the notes that the numbers represent. you don't even need the guitar with you.

[meowmix]

What you both really mean to say is that it did not work for you, not that it does not work.

There are two ways from L.A. to Chicago. Plane or automobile. Which would you choose? How much time do you have?
CAGED is inefficient. There are better ways.

I know lots of UK-based muscians that teach and used CAGED

I bet you do. If I was a guitar teacher, I would wish all of my competitors teach CAGED. It brings a great advantage to me.

To say 'avoid' teachers that use it is ridiculous.

I don't think so. It is a litmus test as far as I am concerned.
Learn music the same way the Masters learned music.

[suave eddie]

I'm probably not the best person to be giving advice on learning the guitar--I've been playing over 40 years and am still pretty much a 'hack'.

After 7 years of classical violin training as a kid, my parents finally got tired of fighting with me to practice and allowed me to quit lessons (it just wasn't very cool for a 15 year old in the mid '60s). Anyway, after picking up a guitar that was laying around the house I learned a few chords and was on my way. I did take a couple of months of lessons--started learning to read music and using my right hand fingers--but I did not want to learn classical and I rebelled against the rigid scales and exercises that I had done for the last 7 years on the violin and so never did practice scales on the guitar. The hand dexterity and position training as well as ear training and general music theory of course did come in handy.

One thing I did early on as a self taught guitar player was to try to find as many places on the fingerboard as possible for the same chords. This forces you unconsciously to start learning where notes are on the keyboard. I've never used the CAGED system but I can see why some of the others have criticized it--it seems to me a bit of trickery without actually learning what's behind it.



When it comes to playing solos--I always say, when in doubt...play the melody. At least start with the melody--solos are basically variations on a theme.

Like I said, I am pretty good for an undisciplined player but lessons from a good teacher can't be beat. Not sure how to find a good teacher--just being a good player doesn't insure a good teacher.

It all depends on what you want out of it. All levels of playing can bring great enjoyment and not everyone will be as serious a student as Lucifer here.

Edit:
This made me think of a bizarre experience I had at a recent local blues jam. I was on stage with a youngish bass player who had been playing for several years (apparently mostly Metal).
He had NO concept of a standard I-IV-V blues progression, and little concept of key signatures. I was informed by another player there that some of these young players can learn to play Metal by just learning the songs alone with no knowledge of even rudimentary theory. I don't get it.

[Dr B]

i have not seen people become musicians with the caged. players, maybe. i have a degree in music, i don't need the caged, i, however understand how it limits you.

How can it limit me? You're not reading my post. I have not started it yet (just about to) - so its impossible to limit me at the moment. Forgive me but, although you might be able to read music, you need to work much harder at reading posts.

Yet again you are over-stating the issue by claiming your experience makes things true. Wrong.

Also you are letting your arrogance show a little hear Louis which is not a helpful or particularly engaging tone. I dont know how you having all these skills and knowledge actually helps the OP who merely wanted general advice about 'getting better'. You seem to think that we all need to be high-level muscians - not so, and indeed many of the greats probably do not have the musical knowledge you claim, but then, you don't apply it in the way they do - otherwise, you would not be here would you?

when you say it works for you, great. what you don't know is that going about it differently could and would have helped more.

I never said it worked for me - again - go back and read the post. I said I had spoken to people who said it had worked for them. Your last point about other systems perhaps helping more is exactly in line with my second post above where i talk about that exact point (everyone finding theire own way). You are re-stating my own points so technically, you're arguing against your own confusion.

Also its more of a stepping stone - perhaps making more complex issues more digestible to learners before moving on to something more familiar to you. I dont see the two as incompatible.

unfortunately most guitarists don't even dream about becoming musicians. they also don't want to learn to read music, just tabs. take any tab and name the notes that the numbers represent. you don't even need the guitar with you.

None of this goes against my points - so its kind of irrelevant really.

[Dr B]

There are two ways from L.A. to Chicago. Plane or automobile. Which would you choose? How much time do you have?
CAGED is inefficient. There are better ways.

I'm not here to defend this system (one I have yet to try) 'against' any other - its subjective anyway so such conversations are pointless. I'm defending the nature of my advice and contesting you're earlier claims as being 'over-stated' (note - I am not claiming you are out and out wrong - but definately over-stated).

My advice is commonly used approach, and is attainable for many beginners - thats all - and that was the context on the advice. Mentioning that one system 'might' help, does not go against the merits of another system. I was clear on this in my response.

I bet you do. If I was a guitar teacher, I would wish all of my competitors teach CAGED. It brings a great advantage to me.

It brings no advantage or disadvantage to you.

I don't think so. It is a litmus test as far as I am concerned.

I know you don't think so, you are just re-stating yourself - still does not make you any more correct.

Learn music the same way the Masters learned music.

I'm sorry, but this is arrogant nonsense. The OP simply asked for advice on improving their enjoyment of the instrument and you have them enrolled at the Royal College of Music in a flash.......do me a favour......

[Dr B]

Hi Eddie

One thing I did early on as a self taught guitar player was to try to find as many places on the fingerboard as possible for the same chords.

Nice points well made. This is part of the CAGED system as I understand it - though I have yet to really start on this path. It seems you got to the same conclusions through you're own route. But the need to be able to do this (extend your fretboard knowledge), is what CAGED (and you yourself) advocate.

I've never used the CAGED system but I can see why some of the others have criticized it--it seems to me a bit of trickery without actually learning what's behind it.

But thats a criticism of the way its taught surely? As oppossed to the system itself? I totally agree with you on that. I know people that have also argued against CAGED - but when i listen to what they say - its their tutor who did not ground it for them where the real problem is. But then - that really applies to all systems.

lessons from a good teacher can't be beat. Not sure how to find a good teacher--just being a good player doesn't insure a good teacher.

Absolutely

It all depends on what you want out of it. All levels of playing can bring great enjoyment and not everyone will be as serious a student as Lucifer here.

Absolutely

[meowmix]

Learn music the same way the Masters learned music.

I'm sorry, but this is arrogant nonsense. The OP simply asked for advice on improving their enjoyment of the instrument and you have them enrolled at the Royal College of Music in a flash.......do me a favour......

Dr B. You are more than welcome to do a google search on the CAGED system. Louis and I are not the only ones who know it is garbage. See what others are saying.

Would you invest with a financial person who filed bankruptcy? Would you hire a body builder/trainer who is obese?
If not, then why would you go and spend BIG amount of time and money studying music from a loser who can't make it in the real world? That is college. Teachers who can't make it in the real world, get subsidized by the government to teach.
Instead learn from winners of the world. The people who are successful in the music industry. They are Masters of their craft. Over the years I had many guitar teaches. Only two I consider successful in the music industry. Both happen to be the best guitar teachers I ever had. Gee, I wonder why?

[KenC]

If I could interject with a question here...

What exactly is the CAGED system anyway? I've seen it described in books and now on websites, but every which way I try to look at it all I can see is arpeggios repeating every 2-3 frets and mimicking the shapes of some open major chord forms. Am I missing something, or is this really all it is? If I'm correct on this, what makes it significantly easier than just learning your major scale and moving it to the right key for the chord you're playing over?

My perspective may be different since I'm primarily a bass player (and have never had a lesson in thirty years, or else I would probably be a whole lot better!). When I play bass, everything is either (a) walking through a scale that defines the current chord and points toward the next one, (b) bouncing around inside an arpeggio, which is usually a chord form or chord fragment, or (c) being quiet and giving the song some breathing room. It's true that the D form has very limited use on the four-string, but I can't imaging how the remaining three forms (I would count the G and E as two different routes through the same set of notes) could really constitute a method. I'm not saying this to be critical; I'm just wondering what I'm missing about this philosophy.

I also question the fact that everything I've seen on CAGED related to the plain old vanilla major scale. The jazz standard Polka Dots and Moonbeams makes beautiful use of the C major scale for the vast majority of the melody, but aside from that and some very basic I-IV-V patterns I can't think of anything that doesn't spend at least some time on dominant and/or minor chords. Assuming your fretboard knowledge was just familiarity of the major scale CAGED patterns, wouldn't you have to basically start over from scratch to learn the other colors of the scale?

Am I missing something here?

Ken

[sickbutnottired]

Here is an online resource I think is great.

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/BL-000-Blues.php

This guy doesn't get to into theory, making the blues somehow manically confusing for a beginner; nor does he teach you 'magic'. IMHO, he gives you the keys to the castle. But there will be lot's of future self study to get the details of things together. I must admit that I already had a great grasp on most the stuff presented, so I can't say that I learned it from these lessons. But I looked at it for a friend, and ended up doing, most if not all, of the blues lessons, and I learned a few things, and had a few idea's as I went...so obviously I enjoyed.

Not as good as a serious teacher, but the accessibility can't be beat.

I don't claim to know that much about the CAGED system, but I have serious misgivings about it. KenC hit them on the head. So I would love to hear some responses to his post from knowledgeable CAGED folks. I arrived at the same conclusions I think he is hinting at, and felt that is basically a complicated road to nowhere. Which i kinda think is why meow and louis are vehemently opposed.

Anyway, I think your plan is great. Learn some scales, jam with some friends or some jam tracks! Good Luck!

BTW, I just lost a post. So if another shows up...sorry...

[meowmix]

Also you are letting your arrogance show a little hear Louis which is not a helpful or particularly engaging tone.

Arrogance means "false sense of pride". Not to be confused with having strong opinions.

[louis cyfer]

Hi Eddie

One thing I did early on as a self taught guitar player was to try to find as many places on the fingerboard as possible for the same chords.

Nice points well made. This is part of the CAGED system as I understand it - though I have yet to really start on this path. It seems you got to the same conclusions through you're own route. But the need to be able to do this (extend your fretboard knowledge), is what CAGED (and you yourself) advocate.

talk about misunderstanding what eddie said.

But thats a criticism of the way its taught surely? As oppossed to the system itself? I totally agree with you on that. I know people that have also argued against CAGED - but when i listen to what they say - its their tutor who did not ground it for them where the real problem is. But then - that really applies to all systems.

unfortunately in this case it is the system. interesting that you as a "scientist" (have my doubts as critical thinking seems to be somewhat lacking "hear") would recommend something that you have not tried, and at the same time staunchly defend it.

as meow pointed out, there is a difference between arrogance, and understanding something and having a strong opinion about it.

[turbo]

CAGED can be a great way to help beginning-to-intermediate guitarists make the next step in their playing. It does this by using shapes they are already familiar with (open chord shapes) and mapping them all over the neck. It's not a system to master every aspect of guitar and music, but one to open your mind to new possibilities and advance at a comfortable pace.

As far as the "best system", best for who? Many inexperienced players would see the sentence "play this exercise in all positions in every key and all known scales" and laugh.

[Dr B]

Louis and I are not the only ones who know it is garbage. See what others are saying.

Actually, you dont 'know' it's garbage at all. Again with the over-stating. In your opinion it is - which is fine, and counts for a lot. But you don't 'know' and that's my point. By over-stating your case you make your position untenable.

Would you invest with a financial person who filed bankruptcy? Would you hire a body builder/trainer who is obese?

These are actually both logical fallacies - often used in classrooms to teach students critical thinking. You think they make sense don't you? Well they don't. For example, Arnold has put weight on since his body-building days and is / or was recently, looking very podgy. Would I take training advice from him? Of course I would - because his body is not a reflection of his mind in this way.

The best football players don't always make the best coaches.....think about it.

Donald Trump was nearly bankrupt once, and a major investor here in the UK form our TV series Dragon's Den was completely bankrupt a few years ago. He is now one of the richest in the country. I would take advice from them as they arguable know the pitfalls more than most.

My counter-examples make the rest of your points redundant.

Please note, my entire point here (which some people around here refuse to grasp) is not that you are 'wrong' and I am 'right'

I am saying (to Louis) that he has over-stated his position, and you have as well. If you moderate the extent of the point you're making - it makes more sense.

What you really shoudl say is that you advise against the CAGED system because......

Remember its advice you are giving, based on your experience - which means alot - but you're deluding yourself if you think its a fact and you are stating things (at times) as if it were fact.

All I need to do is find one person, just one (known as the counter-example) who benefitted in any way from CAGED to prove you wrong. Are you really saying I would struggle to do this?

[Dr B]

Arrogance means "false sense of pride". Not to be confused with having strong opinions.

The emphasis on the false i think......

[Dr B]

unfortunately in this case it is the system. interesting that you as a "scientist" (have my doubts as critical thinking seems to be somewhat lacking "hear") would recommend something that you have not tried, and at the same time staunchly defend it.

OK louis, you're getting personal here and I am always happy to oblige people who take liberties. I will be as cordial as I can be. Trust me, my critical thinking is too hot for you - you just can't see it.

Firstly, don't you mean 'here' and not 'hear' - odd to get that wrong what with you being a major guitarist and all that.

Secondly, what do you doubt? I've handed you your arse on a plate and you have not had the sense to work out why your burger is sooooo chewy

You made a really strong claim at the start of this thread and have provided no evidence, and I mean no evidence (only your opinion), that it is true. You just keep re-stating it and as such you keep looking foolish.

You said ALL teachers that teach CAGED are bad - so that's all teachers from around the world are bad because of this one thing. I say, prove it.

Let me be clear, as with Meomix above, its not a "you are wrong - I am right scenario". You cannot make those arguments on this non-scientific material. It's opinion and experience - which does count for something - but does not close the deal.

I am saying you are over-stating your position. This argument is subtle (you have completely missed it all along) and well within the remit of critical thinking I can assure you. By over-stating, you make your position untenable and really easy to argue against. It's a philosophy or argumentation point really. Did they teach you that at music school? Perhaps if your school is still open (and I doubt it) you can go back and take that class.

More worrying for me is that your advice to a beginner, by being over-stated, is corrosive and unhelpful. You need to learn to qualify your points in terms of 'your opinion' or 'in your experience' and you need to stop stating these things as facts and trying to bully people into submission all the time. I know how to handle bullies.

as meow pointed out, there is a difference between arrogance, and understanding something and having a strong opinion about it.

There is no difference between over-stating an issue to the point of being ridiculous and believing in your ridiculous over-statement.

It's your over-confidence which forces you not to spot where your opinion ends and real facts begin. You have above clearly over-stated your position, used sweeping statements, and at no point have you ever evidenced your position beyond your anecdotal opinion.

Critical enough for you?

PS - I have not started on CAGED yet, due to various personal reasons I had to stop lessons for a couple of months and I hope to return over the coming weeks. I would be happy to come back and honestly report as to whether I found it worthwhile or not. I'm an experimental scientist and quite used to being wrong about hypotheses - but even if I am wrong, I am only wrong in terms of what I got from the system (or not as the case may well be). People learn differently and if you cannot understand that - I pity your students.

[louis cyfer]

Louis and I are not the only ones who know it is garbage. See what others are saying.

Actually, you dont 'know' it's garbage at all. Again with the over-stating. In your opinion it is - which is fine, and counts for a lot. But you don't 'know' and that's my point. By over-stating your case you make your position untenable.

Would you invest with a financial person who filed bankruptcy? Would you hire a body builder/trainer who is obese?

These are actually both logical fallacies - often used in classrooms to teach students critical thinking. You think they make sense don't you? Well they don't. For example, Arnold has put weight on since his body-building days and is / or was recently, looking very podgy. Would I take training advice from him? Of course I would - because his body is not a reflection of his mind in this way.

The best football players don't always make the best coaches.....think about it.

Donald Trump was nearly bankrupt once, and a major investor here in the UK form our TV series Dragon's Den was completely bankrupt a few years ago. He is now one of the richest in the country. I would take advice from them as they arguable know the pitfalls more than most.

My counter-examples make the rest of your points redundant.

Please note, my entire point here (which some people around here refuse to grasp) is not that you are 'wrong' and I am 'right'

I am saying (to Louis) that he has over-stated his position, and you have as well. If you moderate the extent of the point you're making - it makes more sense.

you are actually correct that the best athlete is not always (very rarely actually) the best coach. but bringing up arnold is a mistake. while he doesn't look terrible lately (those pics where shortly after open heart surgery), and he has not put on weight, he actually lost weight since his body building days, taking training advice from him would be idiotic. he did well because of his genetics, and not because, but despite his training. his knowledge of physiology and exercise science in general is very poor. he doesn't even understand the difference between positions and movements. yet a lot of the silly stuff he did is still in use because people fall in the same fallacy that you just did, (even though you tried to bring this up as an example against it), namely, he looked good, therefore he must know what he is doing. you are right that is a logical fallacy, but your example exemplifies said fallacy, so does not work as a counter example. trump is not a great example as well, because having had a negative 600 million net worth, he didn't go belly up because he owed to much to let him fail. not valid for the average person wanting to invest either. the pitfalls he faced was people throwing money after just so he wouldn't default. he simply owed too much, kind of like a country. (the info is from trump himself from an interview many years ago).

do try to bring up better examples, but the point is, that gifted people rarely make great teachers, as things come easy to them, so it is hard for them to understand the struggles of the average person. the same goes for someone born into wealth, probably not an expert on making money from nothing, as they never had to do that. what and how much someone has is not necessarily an indication of how much they know.

[Dr B]

CAGED can be a great way to help beginning-to-intermediate guitarists make the next step in their playing. It does this by using shapes they are already familiar with (open chord shapes) and mapping them all over the neck. It's not a system to master every aspect of guitar and music, but one to open your mind to new possibilities and advance at a comfortable pace.

As far as the "best system", best for who? Many inexperienced players would see the sentence "play this exercise in all positions in every key and all known scales" and laugh.

Hi Turbo

Thats what I have heard from a number of people. The very fact that you posted - showing that one person has benefitted from the system immediately invalidates the arguments of meomix and Louis.

Other systems might be 'better' (though again, a judgment call) but if you found merit it in, for very little pain, then it worked for you.

[Dr B]

you are actually correct that the best athlete is not always (very rarely actually) the best coach. but bringing up arnold is a mistake.

No it was not and it stands to illustrate the fallacy in meomix's post. I suspect from your response you accept that (at least to some degree). So lets move on - but my counter-examples do stand as they show how both simple statements made in the above posts can be shown, on a basic level, to be questionnable. The whole thing was fallacious.

do try to bring up better examples,

No need to - they serve their purpose to show how the logic underlying the original comments was nonsense - completely illogical.

You do not have to suffer from cancer, to know how to cure it......I've got loads of these Louis - but it's all tangential to the main issue.

that gifted people rarely make great teachers, as things come easy to them, so it is hard for them to understand the struggles of the average person.

That is a very good point and I completely agree with you. I notice that mathematicians, on the whole, don't make good teachers as they cannot understand why certain things are not obvious to the rest of us. I'm totally with you on that - but this has nothing to do with my arguments above.

Look, lets boil it down and have a beer here. I am saying you should not wade into a thread saying your fellow posters are full of <censored word> without evidencing your position and making sure you are on thick ice. You were not on thick ice due to the nature of your over-stated intervention.

I said it before and I will say it again, I am not saying you are 'wrong' - I am saying you over-stated your case to such an extent, it cannot be taken seriously. Turn it down a bit and I am with you.

[louis cyfer]

CAGED can be a great way to help beginning-to-intermediate guitarists make the next step in their playing. It does this by using shapes they are already familiar with (open chord shapes) and mapping them all over the neck. It's not a system to master every aspect of guitar and music, but one to open your mind to new possibilities and advance at a comfortable pace.

As far as the "best system", best for who? Many inexperienced players would see the sentence "play this exercise in all positions in every key and all known scales" and laugh.

Hi Turbo

Thats what I have heard from a number of people. The very fact that you posted - showing that one person has benefitted from the system immediately invalidates the arguments of meomix and Louis.

Other systems might be 'better' (though again, a judgment call) but if you found merit it in, for very little pain, then it worked for you.

now you are falling into logical fallacies. one person benefiting (self perceived), does not necessarily mean it's a good system. practicing anything will benefit a player (some), but is the return for the effort and time comparable to other ways. i run into similar things all the time. people who have taken a certain path towards improving at something find out that they could have improved 10 times as much had they chosen a different path.
say, if you ask me for directions to get somewhere, and the destination is only a mile away (unbeknown to you), yet i send you on an 8 mile convoluted route, are those good directions? it worked for you, you get there, and if no one points it out to you, you may never know how much easier it could have been.

you are right, i probably did overstate my point, i tend to be dramatic at times, but it just surprised me that someone of your academic background would choose the caged system as their path forward. ultimately with a good teacher, the system doesn't matter as much as the quality of the instructor, as he/she will take your current position, and your desired destination, and try to plan the best route to get there (even if it's within a confinement of a system, they will step out of it to make it more effective).

[Dr B]

now you are falling into logical fallacies. one person benefiting (self perceived), does not necessarily mean it's a good system.

Dear God......wrong...worng....wrong.....worng. I did not make this claim in the manner in which you are twisting it, I am illustrating how ridiculous your position is. As I clearly noted above, because you are over-stating, and making an illogical argument all you need is one counter-example and that's it...game over. That's exactly why your position is untenable.

To claim his benefit is 'self perceived' with the intention to imply he might not be better is weak to say the least. You are now arguing that your opinion of everyone else here carries more weight than their own and their teachers.....and again here we are with arogance, ridiculous beliefs that have emerged through a fallacious process, held strongly and all the more ridiculous for it.

In the real world (where you do not live) of course one swallow does not make a summer - but you claimed clearly above that anyone who teaches CAGED is a BAD teacher and that its worthless and you stated that as fact.

Clearly this is not the case and that's my point. You have no grasp of the philosophy of argumentation Louis. Trust me, you're chewing on your own arse here and have just asked for seconds...

but is the return for the effort and time comparable to other ways.

But no single person here can prove that - that's my point. We all have our experiences and we can offer them as advice of things to do or things to avoid - but its just our experience of where we got to. It counts for something - but you seem to think that every piece of forum vomit that comes from you is a gold-plated nugget of fact, a pearl of unquestionnable wisdom.

WRONG.....

Also, its non-falsifiable as we can only learn / play one thing at a time so even if you jumped off CAGED onto another system and 'felt' the other system was working better, you cannot say with 100% certainty that your enjoyment of that new system has not been influenced by your prior engagement with CAGED. Its non-falsifiable and thus, not a very scientific way to argue.

i run into similar things all the time. people who have taken a certain path towards improving at something find out that they could have improved 10 times as much had they chosen a different path.

or not, as the case may well be...

say, if you ask me for directions to get somewhere, and the destination is only a mile away (unbeknown to you), yet i send you on an 8 mile convoluted route, are those good directions? it worked for you, you get there, and if no one points it out to you, you may never know how much easier it could have been.

But you might have found an even better route (unkown to you) - but only because you started out on the 8mile journey for a short time. I dont think this works either because CAGED is a very small thing. It's a very minor system and does not take up a great deal of time - your metaphor over-aggs the situation (as well as not working).

Not everyone here has a degree in music or wants one. Not everyone is a better player because of it. Not everyone has the time to be a pro, semi-pro, or whatever. Some people are just looking to entertain themselves and cannot invest the time and effort in the theory - at least not in one big go like it is taught formally. So alternative routes and short cuts are a good thing to keep people playing and getting them to improve, relative to where they are now. Of course, it would be fantastic if we could all practice 16 hours a day, but unless you're a schoolboy skipping school....or a pro.....I don't see it happening.

I have never once, not once, said that CAGED is better than anything you have said or better than any other system. In my very first post I simply said he might want to look into it and I did what you did not......I left it up to him to decide because it was just a suggestion.

I also said he should jam over backing tracks.

you are right, i probably did overstate my point, i tend to be dramatic at times,

At last we get there, thank you for being honest. That's the only real point I wanted to make. I would have said nothing if it was just a chat amongst ourselves, but I felt that as it was advice to a beginner, it could not go unchallenged. I guess we have exhausted it now

....but it just surprised me that someone of your academic background would choose the caged system as their path forward.

I have not decided its my path forward yet and my academic qualifications are not in music. I am about to embark on it and trust me, if it does not work for me I will be the first to tell my teacher and he will respond because he is a professional musician with a background in classical, spanish, bluegrass, blues, Jazz, etc area. He is the 'go-to' man in my area and professionals go to him as a session player and for advice on playing styles etc. He really knows his stuff and plays with a famous (reasonably) Irish acoustic / folk / bluesgrass band. They did a good tour of the US last year - so this guy does not just teach - he is out there doing it.

ultimately with a good teacher, the system doesn't matter as much as the quality of the instructor, as he/she will take your current position, and your desired destination, and try to plan the best route to get there (even if it's within a confinement of a system, they will step out of it to make it more effective).

That's the best thing you said in this whole discussion and I wholeheartedly agree with you on that and I think that's why he wants me to try CAGED as I work long hours and do not have the time to dedicate to music theory what perhaps I should. But you can still enjoy playing guitar - that's the point.

If anything good is to come from this discussion it has to be that we give advice to beginners responsibly (from our experience) and even when you strongly disagree with a fellow poster (because of different experiences and levels of experience), you must do so without over-stating your case which only seves to undermine the very point you are seeking to make. So you end up working against yourself.

Happy playing man.....happy playing...

[louis cyfer]

unfortunately in this case it is the system. interesting that you as a "scientist" (have my doubts as critical thinking seems to be somewhat lacking "hear") would recommend something that you have not tried, and at the same time staunchly defend it.

Firstly, don't you mean 'here' and not 'hear' - odd to get that wrong what with you being a major guitarist and all that.

ok. after removing both feet from your mouth, please read your earlier post i was referencing (hence the quotes) "Also you are letting your arrogance show a little hear Louis". i am not the one who got it wrong.

To claim his benefit is 'self perceived' with the intention to imply he might not be better is weak to say the least. You are now arguing that your opinion of everyone else here carries more weight than their own and their teachers.....and again here we are with arogance, ridiculous beliefs that have emerged through a fallacious process, held strongly and all the more ridiculous for it.

self perceived does not mean it's not real, nor do i mean what you are trying to say i am implying. turbo did not claim he benefited, like your post suggested, but if that is what he was saying (from his post we don't know), such benefits are usually self perceived at first. such perception may or may not be accurate (sometimes people think they have improved when they if fact have not), it is best usually verified with teacher, other players, audience, etc. i did not argue (like you are suggesting), expressly or implied, that my opinion carries more weight than the person's and their teacher's. i am simply pointing out that people's self perception regarding their progress (among many things) may or may not be accurate. the reason is that it's difficult to gauge themselves, as they hear themselves everyday.

i am sure that you come across this issue often with students. they think they are improving, and the direction they are going is actually lateral or worse, and the opposite also happens, when they perceive no benefits, and in fact it had been considerable. of course the self perception can be accurate or close to accurate as well.

i would also like to point out regarding overstating things (although apparently i am not the only one who is fallen into this trap), that english is not my first language, and some of the words that are too strong, and/or seem to indicate confusion between fact and opinion, or are too generalized, don't carry the same meaning when i see them. subtle shadings and intricacies often escape me, as well as the general tone (that you referred to), when coming from another language and culture, and the demeanor translates very differently.

[timewave]

HEY !
Well you two are really IMO getting off track huh?
If someone WANTS to learn ,there is nothing wrong or bad about any system ! Its what THAT person gets out of it that matters,even if its one small NEW blues lick that they did nt know before! They learned SOMETHING! I think all that matters is a students desire to play,if as a teacher you keep that alive you are a good teacher.Everyone is not going to be Jimmi or Jeff! There are alot of people who are happy to reach noob levels of playing,so live and let live! I find that most new gtr players are happy with small advances, and from there great things may come! Caged never heard of it (maybe to old) I came up in MEL BAYs nutty books and then to a jazz teacher where scales and related scales were learned. Melody is a good start but IMO scales and modes put it all together. SO Caged UnCaged who cares! To learn anyting DESIRE to learn is what needs to be present or ALL systems fail!
OH.... I almost forgot ,To improve BLUES learn 5 shapes of pent. scale! This will open up your fretboard a little!

[sirmyghin]

I, as Louis recommended early in the thread, suggest a harmonic approach, opposed to focussing on scales (as many players tend to, without any harmonic knowledge put too much stock in) or things like CAGED. If you can build any chord in any position you feel like, you will be free on the fretboard, and free to accompany as you see fit with the goings on of the band.

[JagInTheBag]

Thanks for the tip Louis.

I was hoping to find an alternative to getting an instructor, my last instructor was just teaching me songs and I didn't think it really helped my overall knowledge/ability. So I was hoping to use a bit of an aid to refer to when I'm in my room jamming.

But I'll definitely look into other instructors in my area again. I fear that I'm becoming a person that can play songs on my guitar as oppose to knowing how to really play the guitar.

instructor that only teaches songs is a bad one. i tell my students, i can teach you songs, one song at a time, or i can teach you every song. use songs to illustrate specific theory points, and after a couple of months i never teach a song again. i have given them the tools, i make them figure it out.

+1 good on you for using this approach!