Thursday July 12th

[Fred Finisher]

Yesterday came and went without a topic so I would like to throw one or two out there for today.
I would like to know everyone's opinion on why G&L has never been as popular as they should be. This question has bothered me since the beginning of the company. Do you think it is because there aren't enough big name endorsers?
Do you think it was poor marketing?
Is it possible that they just don't play or sound as good as most players would like them to?
I have also been checking on EBay to see what G&L's are going for and I have been surprised to see how cheap you can get an ASAT for. The last ones I saw were mid 90's versions that sold for a little over $500.00. These were American made not Tribute models.
For my final question, do most of you feel there is an appreciable difference between Leo Era and BBE instruments? I am more of a collector than a player so to me, the older the better, but to those of you who play your instruments regularly, is there that much of a difference?
Hopefully this will give everyone something to think about.
It's too early to say what lunch will be, so I'll check back later,
Fred

[LeoFThe Champion]

G'day Fred, I think they are to versatile , The old ones appealed to country players, rockers and everybody in between. So they have never quite managed to ride the What's in wave. They were selling the F- 100 when van Halen made pointy headstocks popular.
It' s not the sound or playability. in my opinion this cannot be beaten. I own old Leo Fenders and old Les Pauls and G&L are better.
I like Leo being around for my G& L's but I' m sure the new ones are great. But I am into pre BBL era, how could you not be into Fred finishing your guitar era. Also the maple wood was old and Honduran Mahogany are tone timbers.
Cheers
Anthony

[darwinohm]

Good questions Fred as many of us have talked about this. I think that it was marketing as G&L has never been a household name. Their product is much superior to Fender in my opinion. I have 14 of them, all BBE products and the quality of them has continued to improve and I think the product today is outstanding. I also have about 15 Fenders and seldom use them. The G&L L-2500 is the finest bass that I have owned and I have had several brands. The woods that G&L has used in the transparent colors are awesome. Many of the necks have flaming in them as standard. These are only things that you would get from the Fender Custom shop. I do have Fender Custom shop models and they are nothing special other than the price is high. Used American G&L's are the best buy on the planet.-- Darwin

[westsideduck]

I was still gigging heavely in the early 80's and had never heard or saw a G&L at any gig or concert being played by ANYBOBY! G&L dealers were far and few between across the country and there were none in western new york as far as I know so I guess you could call that a mixture of marketing and no endorsments. No big name endorsements = Big time players didn't like MFD's? too Bright? and lets face it the F-100 is not a great guitar sonicly but in 82 when the 500 came out I would have thought some players would come around.

IMO there is a huge difference between the Leo era and the currant G&Ls, nothing out there can hold a candle to the early 500's and Broadcasters.

[Fred Finisher]

Hello again,
I just got back from a burger and beans lunch. Good to see some replies here. I remember early NAMM shows when the salesmen manning our booth were less than engaging when you asked about the line up. Other folks had people playing the instruments throughout the day which made you stop and listen. That was when there was an opportunity to showcase what the guitars could do but it seems like we did not capitalize on that. I do know from personal experience as well as talking to others that most everyone cranks the tone pots to ten ( or eleven for you Spinal Tap fans ) before they start to play so the initial sound you hear is too bright for most. Once you get used to the tone controls, you realize that these guitars were made to be extremely versatile so that you could play several styles of music without changing instruments. I have yet to try out the newer models but I would guess they are very well made. I would love to hear some other opinions on this to see what the general consensus is.
Fred

[bassman]

The reason that you don't see more G&Ls is that the traditional Fender models still work. Strats, Teles, Jazz and P basses will be around forever and you have to accept that as a fact of life.
G&L can still make inroads into what people play by continuing to offer a good selection of Tribute models along with their better quality USA instruments.

I just had a two gig weekend with my band "Capital Blues Ensemble"

Friday night we played a small club in Greenbelt, Maryland called the "New Deal Cafe"

On Saturday it was 105 degrees F and we played outside of a neighborhood bar called the Star Diner with its outdoor "Tiki Bar"

Our guitarist recently bought my old G&L Legacy and he has never sounded better.

I think the new G&L gear is great! I would play anything made by G&L including my Tribute L-2000 with no reservations at any gig.

I will post some gig pictures if I can get permission from their owners. Here is an all G&L band sample for you:
[youtube]2n49Y9c_wJU[/youtube]

[Boogie Bill]

I haven't been participating much lately cause my back has been killing me.

Fred, I really enjoyed your week of lunch reporting. Nice to know that I have a couple of Music Man Sabres that you probably did the finishing on. How cool is that!!

I owned a 1960 Strat. I always say that the Legacy is the guitar that seemed to fix all of the issues I had with my Strat, yet kept the character of the guitar intact--the RIGHT upgrades.

I really think G&L has had inadequate marketing, and I've said that for a long time. (I hope Dave doesn't ban me for saying that!) I'm sure they wish they had FMIC's marketing budget! But I think the ads they've put out, especially over the BBE-era have not gotten the message out to the players. And I have heard several complaints from retailers over the years about the G&L Sales Reps.

There are a couple of Leo-era guitars that I would love to have, but I currently own only BBE-made guitars. I've bought most of them used, and yes they are tremendous values. If I didn't play a Legacy-bodied guitar, I would probably have to pay for a Fender Custom Shop Strat, with a 12" radius and medium jumbo frets; Sperzels, an upgraded bridge--and the PTB controls!!

Bill

[Elwood]

Thanks for the LR today Fred,
I really enjoyed your LR week and wish I was more spontaneous with my replies.
I started collecting leo-era G&L's and don't have any newer ones, I've been tempted recently by the roasted maple necks and a couple of really nice looking tributes.
After putting a '51 Leo Fender Champ lap steel pickup in the bridge position of one of my favorite guitars I see (or rather hear ) the value in the old Leo-Era ( Fender or G&L ) gear . This auction ended just north of two grand for one pickup-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 252wt_1272

There are some crazy deals out there still for G&L's that need TLC, I think it'll be another ten years before the masses catch on. Doesn't seem right but as a player on a serious budget I'll keep watching for deals like that abused S-500 going for 299 currently on ebay. (only two pickups, but that's a few grand in a couple decades )

gotta go, thanks again Fred !

Elwood

[louis cyfer]

it was my birthday today. had a crepe cake. i only have 1 1/2 g&l's but i am thinking bout selling my am standard strat, and replacing it with a s500 or comanche. of course an anderson is still in the running too. if business keeps going like this, maybe all of them.

[Elwood]

it was my birthday today. had a crepe cake.

: )

[Fred Finisher]

Well it looks like the consensus is marketing based on these replies. Deep pockets make it a lot easier to get the big name endorsers but you need sales to get deep pockets so you always have to deal with the which came first the chicken or the egg question. If you see a picture of Steve Vai with some of his guitars you would think Ibanez has a sub factory set up just to make them for him. I remember when Aria was endorsing Stryper and a few other metal players in the eighties, they would hire guys like myself and Steve Reed to customize their instruments for their endorsers because it would take too long to have the specs sent back to Japan, manufactured and returned to the players. They saw the value in having their instruments in front of the market as much as possible. Maybe some of you guys that are out there gigging will hit it big and you can showcase how good these instruments are.
Fred

[Fred Finisher]

By the way, thanks to all of you that replied for taking the time to do so!

[louis cyfer]

Well it looks like the consensus is marketing based on these replies. Deep pockets make it a lot easier to get the big name endorsers but you need sales to get deep pockets so you always have to deal with the which came first the chicken or the egg question. If you see a picture of Steve Vai with some of his guitars you would think Ibanez has a sub factory set up just to make them for him. I remember when Aria was endorsing Stryper and a few other metal players in the eighties, they would hire guys like myself and Steve Reed to customize their instruments for their endorsers because it would take too long to have the specs sent back to Japan, manufactured and returned to the players. They saw the value in having their instruments in front of the market as much as possible. Maybe some of you guys that are out there gigging will hit it big and you can showcase how good these instruments are.
Fred

i have played steve vai's personal guitars. they are by far the worst guitars i have ever touched, and that would include 99 dollar squiers.

[Lefty]

For me, eliminating the “ashtray” bridge, 7 ½" radius, and standard 1 5/8” nut would go a long way. I would replace the ashtray with a Saddle lock, the radius should be 12” (or compound) and the standard nut should be 1 11/16”. But, that’s just me. I own two “classic” ASAT’s and both would be better guitars with these changes, IMHO.


If I was buying a high end guitar TODAY, it would be a 2012 Gibson LP Standard Premium: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LPNSTDPLTACH

No offense to anyone that owns a ton of Classics

[louis cyfer]

For me, eliminating the “ashtray” bridge, 7 ½" radius, and standard 1 5/8” nut would go a long way. I would replace the ashtray with a Saddle lock, the radius should be 12” (or compound) and the standard nut should be 1 11/16”. But, that’s just me. I own two “classic” ASAT’s and both would be better guitars with these changes, IMHO.


If I was buying a high end guitar TODAY, it would be a 2012 Gibson LP Standard Premium: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LPNSTDPLTACH

No offense to anyone that owns a ton of Classics

other than the ashtray, that is available at g&l. i have a classic bluesboy, 12" radius, 1 11/16" nut, and the ashtray with the individual saddles solves the problem with that bridge. i don't think a higher end guitar today and a gibson of any sort belongs in the same sentence. of course, you can always get the dusk tiger.

[Lefty]

For me, eliminating the “ashtray” bridge, 7 ½" radius, and standard 1 5/8” nut would go a long way. I would replace the ashtray with a Saddle lock, the radius should be 12” (or compound) and the standard nut should be 1 11/16”. But, that’s just me. I own two “classic” ASAT’s and both would be better guitars with these changes, IMHO.


If I was buying a high end guitar TODAY, it would be a 2012 Gibson LP Standard Premium: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LPNSTDPLTACH

No offense to anyone that owns a ton of Classics

other than the ashtray, that is available at g&l. i have a classic bluesboy, 12" radius, 1 11/16" nut, and the ashtray with the individual saddles solves the problem with that bridge. i don't think a higher end guitar today and a gibson of any sort belongs in the same sentence. of course, you can always get the dusk tiger.

Yes, those "options" are available from G&L & if you are ordering new, go for it. However, most "used" G&L ASAT Classics don't command premium prices because the "standard" build is a 1 5/8" & a 7 1/2" radius. Why not have those as options?
As far as your dislike for Gibson guitars - There are millions of players that obviously don't agree. I don't own any Gibsons, but I have a EPI "Elite" LP that I would state is a fine instrument. I bought that used also..

Anyway, I feel the specs on the new 2012 Gibson LP are the best specs I've seen on a Gibson in years... and the price is reasonable for a "lefty" model.

I'm just sayin'

ps. You are a great player & you do just fine with that classic bridge.

[louis cyfer]

For me, eliminating the “ashtray” bridge, 7 ½" radius, and standard 1 5/8” nut would go a long way. I would replace the ashtray with a Saddle lock, the radius should be 12” (or compound) and the standard nut should be 1 11/16”. But, that’s just me. I own two “classic” ASAT’s and both would be better guitars with these changes, IMHO.


If I was buying a high end guitar TODAY, it would be a 2012 Gibson LP Standard Premium: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LPNSTDPLTACH

No offense to anyone that owns a ton of Classics

other than the ashtray, that is available at g&l. i have a classic bluesboy, 12" radius, 1 11/16" nut, and the ashtray with the individual saddles solves the problem with that bridge. i don't think a higher end guitar today and a gibson of any sort belongs in the same sentence. of course, you can always get the dusk tiger.

Yes, those "options" are available from G&L & if you are ordering new, go for it. However, most "used" G&L ASAT Classics don't command premium prices because the "standard" build is a 1 5/8" & a 7 1/2" radius. Why not have those as options?
As far as your dislike for Gibson guitars - There are millions of players that obviously don't agree. I don't own any Gibsons, but I have a EPI "Elite" LP that I would state is a fine instrument. I bought that used also..

Anyway, I feel the specs on the new 2012 Gibson LP are the best specs I've seen on a Gibson in years... and the price is reasonable for a "lefty" model.

I'm just sayin'

ps. You are a great player & you do just fine with that classic bridge.

i don't dislike gibson guitars. but the current ones have fallen in quality considerably. a lot of the epis are much better. gibson's qc has been suspect for the better part of the last decade. lots of 90's gibsons i liked, as well as 60's.

[Lefty]

i don't dislike gibson guitars. but the current ones have fallen in quality considerably. a lot of the epis are much better. gibson's qc has been suspect for the better part of the last decade. lots of 90's gibsons i liked, as well as 60's.

Come to think of it, the last time I visually checked out some $3-4K Gibson guitars, fit and finish was a few notches below my EPI (made in Japan.) Gibson USA must have some lousy management. The older ones were indeed of higher quality.

Thanks for saving me from buying a new Gibson based on some photos!!

[Elwood]

lots of 90's gibsons i liked, as well as 60's.

90-96 seems to me to be a sweet spot in Gibson's history ; I really liked a '92 LP I let go . I sold my 2004 LP , 75 SG...kept the 69 and 70 goldtops,
and the 72 SG. Seems fairly congruent to louis' observations (that 75 SG sure was a dog , I shudder to mention the '80 Sonex )

[louis cyfer]

i don't dislike gibson guitars. but the current ones have fallen in quality considerably. a lot of the epis are much better. gibson's qc has been suspect for the better part of the last decade. lots of 90's gibsons i liked, as well as 60's.

Come to think of it, the last time I visually checked out some $3-4K Gibson guitars, fit and finish was a few notches below my EPI (made in Japan.) Gibson USA must have some lousy management. The older ones were indeed of higher quality.

Thanks for saving me from buying a new Gibson based on some photos!!

don't buy based on photos. you'll have to play through many current ones to find a decent one. i saw one 50's tribute that was pretty good, but out of 12 or so i played.

[astutzmann]

if you are specifically looking for a LP style guitar, look at Heritage.

Here's the one I bought from Jerrys, its awesome!!!

http://www.jerrysleftyguitars.com/herit ... -left.html

I feel Heritage is to gibson, like G&L is to Fender. I got to try it at Jerrys but I would be scared to buy a gibson lefty for fear you would get a crap guitar for the same money!

[louis cyfer]

if you are specifically looking for a LP style guitar, look at Heritage.

Here's the one I bought from Jerrys, its awesome!!!

http://www.jerrysleftyguitars.com/herit ... -left.html

I feel Heritage is to gibson, like G&L is to Fender. I got to try it at Jerrys but I would be scared to buy a gibson lefty for fear you would get a crap guitar for the same money!

+1. heritages are great guitars.

[Craig]

it was my birthday today. had a crepe cake. i only have 1 1/2 g&l's but i am thinking bout selling my am standard strat, and replacing it with a s500 or comanche. of course an anderson is still in the running too. if business keeps going like this, maybe all of them.

Happy Brithday! BTW, mine was on Tuesday.

[jonc]

Heritage "is" Gibson since it's the old plant and at one time, though not sure now, had many of the old Gibson workers. They've also had their rough patches as far as QC goes, but they build a great guitar which can be bought cheap on the used market since they're perceived as being copies of the "real thing." Same like G&L. Great guitars and basses, but since they don't say Fender on the headstock... When I used to work in the local music store I'd show guys a G&L and even if they loved the guitar, 8 out of 10 times they would go for the Fender saying that, they'd rather buy the "real thing." Then there were the kids who only wanted 3-bolt 70's Strats cause that's what their dad played, and because "they were the best Fender's ever." Blind loyalty and perception can be a terrible thing. And i agree, that overall G&L ads have never really hit the mark, and when Musician's Fiend only shows Tributes (or mislabled US-models as Tributes), and use lame blurbs and copy, it doesn't help.

Happy Birthday to both birthday boys.

[darwinohm]

Congrats Louis and Craig on getting older. I'm glad that did'nt happen to me this past week!!!!!--Darwin

[JagInTheBag]

Heritage "is" Gibson since it's the old plant and at one time, though not sure now, had many of the old Gibson workers. They've also had their rough patches as far as QC goes, but they build a great guitar which can be bought cheap on the used market since they're perceived as being copies of the "real thing." Same like G&L. Great guitars and basses, but since they don't say Fender on the headstock... When I used to work in the local music store I'd show guys a G&L and even if they loved the guitar, 8 out of 10 times they would go for the Fender saying that, they'd rather buy the "real thing." Then there were the kids who only wanted 3-bolt 70's Strats cause that's what their dad played, and because "they were the best Fender's ever." Blind loyalty and perception can be a terrible thing. And i agree, that overall G&L ads have never really hit the mark, and when Musician's Fiend only shows Tributes (or mislabled US-models as Tributes), and use lame blurbs and copy, it doesn't help.

Happy Birthday to both birthday boys.

Isn't it bracingly ignorant, especially since Leo spent more of his years at G&L than he did Fender? In every sense, G&L IS the real thing. They have just had a hard time breaking through with that message. Brands other than Fender have a large number of endorsements. Just look at how many "siganture" series guitars fricken Dean has: http://www.deanguitars.com/deanartists.php

Dealership and Field Rep management is miserable, both here and abroad. I read on another post in Australia it has gotten so bad that some of the biggest G&L fanatics don't plan on purchasing another new one. Sales and salesmanship are things that are worth investing in. G&L has also been absent from NAAM for the past couple years as a cost saving measure. I've learned long ago that you can't save yoru way to prosperity. Invest in your salesforce and dealership development. Give them the tools to show the public who the REAL Fender is!

[Fred Finisher]

I have to agree with you Jag on the importance of a well informed sales team. I was at the Summer Namm last weekend in Nashville and I stopped to look at some guitars that were being played by some good players. Had they just been on display, I probably wouldn't have stopped. Big name endorsers are great to have, but there are lots of very talented players that would be willing to demo instruments if given the chance. Hopefully, this will change for G&L in the near future.
Fred

[JagInTheBag]

I have to agree with you Jag on the importance of a well informed sales team. I was at the Summer Namm last weekend in Nashville and I stopped to look at some guitars that were being played by some good players. Had they just been on display, I probably wouldn't have stopped. Big name endorsers are great to have, but there are lots of very talented players that would be willing to demo instruments if given the chance. Hopefully, this will change for G&L in the near future.
Fred

+1

I did some thinking on this after reading the thread. In the social media we live in today, I think G&L can turn the "Uniquely Yours Uniquely G&L." campaign into a musician's video contest. Entrants can be in different categories and genres that would give them HOURS of talented raw footage between playing and entrants telling their story- why they like the G&L brand, and what made their instrument "uniquely theirs". Cut those guys in with established musicians (like Areosmith) and you really have something that the public can connect with. The "winners" could end up being sponsored by G&L. (Darth, are you listening? All I want is a guitar out of the deal LOL!)

[louis cyfer]

I have to agree with you Jag on the importance of a well informed sales team. I was at the Summer Namm last weekend in Nashville and I stopped to look at some guitars that were being played by some good players. Had they just been on display, I probably wouldn't have stopped. Big name endorsers are great to have, but there are lots of very talented players that would be willing to demo instruments if given the chance. Hopefully, this will change for G&L in the near future.
Fred

+1

I did some thinking on this after reading the thread. In the social media we live in today, I think G&L can turn the "Uniquely Yours Uniquely G&L." campaign into a musician's video contest. Entrants can be in different categories and genres that would give them HOURS of talented raw footage between playing and entrants telling their story- why they like the G&L brand, and what made their instrument "uniquely theirs". Cut those guys in with established musicians (like Areosmith) and you really have something that the public can connect with. The "winners" could end up being sponsored by G&L. (Darth, are you listening? All I want is a guitar out of the deal LOL!)

would the winners be based on playing or story?