Finish processes, how we did it then.

Fred Finisher · Post by **Fred Finisher** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:51 am

Today I will touch on the topic of finishing because this seems to be more interesting to most enthusiasts. The topic of women working on your guitar did not seem to excite too many of you. I thought it would be something to think about because the conventional pony tailed luthier stereotype exists whether we like it or not.
There have been questions as to how the finishes were applied and what was used that I would like to touch on. For starters, let's talk about prep. Sanding is the most thankless job in the shop no matter what field you're in. A poor sanding job will result in a poor finish and feel. A body or neck is shaped and finish sanded prior to coming into the finish department. Depending on the species of wood, the next step is to final sand and seal or apply a paste wood filler ( colored for Mahogany, Natural for Ash ). The filler was applied by brush allowed to dry then wiped off across the grain with burlap in order to leave as much as possible in the pores of the wood. If this is not done, the finish will continue to shrink into the grain of the wood and will look like an amateur did it. Once the filler is lightly sanded the base coats can be applied after a sanding sealer is applied and scuff sanded.This is something that has to be done very lightly at first or there will be air bubbles and other problems to deal with. Four coats of clear was applied to create a base coat prior to any color being applied. This might come as a surprise to some but the colors were applied over the base coats. They were not wipe on stains or sprayed directly on the wood. The base coats until around 1985 were 100% nitro cellulose lacquer. There were no polyester or polyurethane base coats prior to that time. After four coats were applied and dry, they had to be smooth sanded before the color ( or in the case of natural ) and top coats could be applied. I will continue this process breakdown throughout the day. I hope you will stay tuned.
Fred

Footnote: When I say no polys were used prior to 1985 I mean at G&L. The very first CLF instruments did have polyester base coats which were discontinued because of check cracking.

meowmix · Post by **meowmix** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:46 am

Hi Fred.

Thanks for going into detail on how things are done. I can understand why the sanding it the most important step to get right.

Since we are talking about finishes. Any special treatment needs to be done to the Red Metal Flake, Gold Metallicburst, sparkle red......?
Apparently the metal flake adds weight to the build.
And how did you guys do the Blue/Red/Black and Silver swirl? You don't see many of those around.

Thanks.

Fred Finisher · Post by **Fred Finisher** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:29 am

Hi Meowmix,
The special treatment would be making sure that every little scratch and crevice is filled or sanded out. Metallic finishes magnify imperfections. In comparison, if you saw that you had left a scratch in a black finish, you could add a little more clear over the area and sand it smooth and end up with a good looking finish. All the coats in the world will not make the scratch in a metallic base coat go away. The amount of powdered gold or silver, depending on your base color, will not add significantly to the weight of your instrument because a little goes a long way to cover because you are applying a fine solid metal suspended in a clear base coat. The swirl finishes were done after I left the shop in Dec. '85. The methods they chose to use to do this I can't speak on. Hope this helps,
Fred

KenM · Post by **KenM** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:30 am

You mentioned your favorite bass was the L1000. What features or other aspects of the L1000 did you prefer over the L2000 and other basses of the time? Did you have a body and neck wood preference? Many people think a Mahogany body-Maple Board combination provide the ultimate in tone. Would you agree? Thanks in advance for your time and perspectives. This week’s reporting has been absolutely stellar and one of the best ever.

Fred Finisher · Post by **Fred Finisher** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:23 am

Apparently I timed out again after returning from my lunch consisting of a Marie Callendars chicken pot pie, fresh strawberries and yogurt. For a beverage I had a mix of cold pressed aloe vera juice, pomegranate and cranberry juice followed by a large cup of Ethiopian coffee. I would have liked to have had the pie on Whittier Blvd fresh out of the oven but geography makes it impractical. Fortunately, the frozen variety is not too bad.
I will type faster and break this up more to see what I can get in here today about finish process.
To clear things up about what was used, all G&L guitars before around 1985 were 100% nitro cellulose lacquer finishes.
Around '85 we began to shoot a two part polyurethane for base coats only. Bodies that were made of Ash or Mahogany were filled with a paste wood filler. This was a time consuming process but necessary to get the smooth finish necessary for these guitars to look right. The mahogany bodies were discontinued early on when Leo became convinced that the tone of these instruments was not as good as the maple and ash bodies. When this happened, the bodies in production were pulled and destroyed so any early G&L's that are mahogany are from a small group that were completed prior to this change.
The bodies came into the finish department presanded by the woodshop but not completely sanded. The final sanding took place in finishing and then they were either filled or sealed right away. A lacquer sanding sealer was used for this. This was then scuff sanded before four coats of clear lacquer was applied as a base coat. Filled bodies had to be coated carefully or they would get air bubbles that were hard to remedy. Once the base coats were applied, they would need to be scuff sanded to remove the orange peel and grain that might show through.

To be cont...

Fred Finisher · Post by **Fred Finisher** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:43 am

Cont...
After the sanding was complete, the color coats were done. If a body was to remain natural, it of course was merely sprayed with clear lacquer. If it was to be colored the process could be as simple as spraying on a solid color such as black. If it was to be a sunburst for example, you would begin with the yellow base coat over the entire body, followed by the cherry red perimeter being careful not to get it too dark or light, then the last step would be to apply the dark brown perimeter burst. The outside edge needed to be opaque but the face and back of the instrument had to have a certain see through quality to it in order for it not to look like it was "masked off". There were variances in these finishes but most were pretty consistent. The see through blues and reds were especially touchy because they could come out blotchy or too dark.
After the colors were applied, six coats of clear nitro was sprayed on. Sometime early on we began to make it a bit easier for the polishing department by stopping before the last coat and sanding the lacquer smooth before spraying on the last coat. This made it easier for them to remove the orange peel during the wet sanding process.
Once the final coat was applied the bodies were allowed to dry for two weeks. This made it possible to wet sand and polish the bodies to a high gloss without worrying about the lacquer shrinking prematurely.
The necks were sprayed with a total of six coats also but they were buffed out much sooner because there was less lacquer to dry. Once we began to spray colors on headstocks, there were some changes on how we got them complete. Although this looked better, there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over the extra effort needed to complete them. We had a base plus bonus per piece system in place so any changes caused a lot of heartburn with those of us who had to do the extra work.

To be cont...

Ken Baker · Post by **Ken Baker** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:57 am

Fred Finisher wrote:Apparently I timed out again after returning from my lunch consisting of a Marie Callendars chicken pot pie, fresh strawberries and yogurt. For a beverage I had a mix of cold pressed aloe vera juice, pomegranate and cranberry juice followed by a large cup of Ethiopian coffee. I would have liked to have had the pie on Whittier Blvd fresh out of the oven but geography makes it impractical. Fortunately, the frozen variety is not too bad.

Couple things: You can avoid timing out when you're actively on the board by previewing your post. Works for me here. The other thing is that MC restaurants ain't what they used to be. Too much cost cutting.

The mahogany bodies were discontinued early on when Leo became convinced that the tone of these instruments was not as good as the maple and ash bodies. When this happened, the bodies in production were pulled and destroyed so any early G&L's that are mahogany are from a small group that were completed prior to this change.

Then I feel even MORE fortunate to have this one. Links only. I'm not going to resize them.

http://www.bassesbyleo.com/images/el_to ... cket_3.jpg

http://www.bassesbyleo.com/images/el_to ... eeds_2.jpg

http://www.bassesbyleo.com/images/el_to ... eeds_1.jpg

http://www.bassesbyleo.com/images/el_to ... heel_1.jpg

Ken...

sickbutnottired · Post by **sickbutnottired** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:17 pm

Great stuff Fred. I know nothing about finishing so this is very interesting.

I too have an early Mahogany G&L F-100, years ago I had an Ash one as well, I sold it because I thought the mahogany was much superior. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder, I guess. Also, it is a Sunburst and spectacular after all these years. A little 'relic'ed' from use, but spectacular. I will post a picture some time.

Ken Baker (we are awash in Ken's around here, not complaining!) That's a beautiful piece. Wow.

Miles Smiles · Post by **Miles Smiles** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:31 pm

Fred Finisher wrote:To clear things up about what was used, all G&L guitars before around 1985 were 100% nitro cellulose lacquer finishes.

Interesting, I always thought my 1983 SC-2 would have nitro finish, but I've been told that they all got polyester finishes, like mentioned here also: http://www.ggjaguar.com/sc-2-82.htm

Here's mine: click->

Post by **Craig** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:07 pm

Fred please check out this post regarding session timeouts: Session timeouts - losing post while creating it?

Hope this helps.

I also want to thank you for these insightful behind the scenes info regarding the early years of G&L. I will be
adding your posts to our G&L Knowledgebase, too.

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:28 pm

Great information on the paint process. I have done this several times and find it very interesting. Nitro is so forgiving to spray and touch up. I used it until about 10 years ago when I started using poly. -- Darwin

Fred Finisher · Post by **Fred Finisher** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:30 pm

Ken,
Nice El Toro, one of the two prototypes for that bass will be on display in Fullerton at the Fender museum on Pomona Ave soon. I dropped it off to Richard Smith a couple of months ago along with some other interesting pieces.
Sick...,
Ash is an interesting wood, I remember weighing two identical ( size ) Sabre bodies with one weighing in at just over three pounds and the other at eight. Ash can be very dense so one ash body might have great tone and feel while another one creates job security for your chiropractor.
Miles,
The SC series was going to be made without the buffing and polishing process in order to cut costs but it is nearly impossible to make a high gloss finish look good with out the buffing. We tried some different things with the finish but polyester was never one of them. Maybe tomorrow I will throw in an anecdote about some left over poly catalyst.
Darwin,
You're absolutely right about the forgiving part.
Fred

Fred Finisher · Post by **Fred Finisher** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:32 pm

Craig,
Thanks for the info, unfortunately, when I tried to utilize this info, the server here crashed and sent some lengthy replies into cyberspace. I will be doing this from now on though.
Fred

meowmix · Post by **meowmix** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:42 pm

Fred,

Session time out happens to everyone here...too often. It is the fact of life on this board.
Thanks for spending the time and effort to re-write your post.

Peter

Fred Finisher · Post by **Fred Finisher** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:49 pm

Final chapter for today's topic,
After the bodies and necks were dry enough, they were wet sanded to a 600 grit paper using a soap and water solution. This process took some finesse because a little too much water and the cavities and holes would swell. The buffing was done by machine which required steady hands and focus or you stood a chance of having a high speed neck or body crack you in the ribs or like one of the guys even worse, right between the eyes. Once the edges were polished, the top and back were polished by a hand held buffer similar to what you see used for detailing cars. These finishes were scrutinized for defects because nobody wanted any sub par instruments leaving the factory.
I hope this sheds a little light on what it takes to make a guitar look as good as it does when it leaves the factory.

Now I'm off to feed my pond fish (Goldfish and Koi ) and work on the rental house project. are there any volunteers for next weeks duties out there? I will need to select a nominee tomorrow.
Fred

Miles Smiles · Post by **Miles Smiles** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:05 pm

meowmix wrote: Session time out happens to everyone here...too often.

Except me, it seems, never had one of these, but of course I always have the "automatic login option" set.

Fred Finisher · Post by **Fred Finisher** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:40 pm

I wanted to post a tip on how to tell if you have a lacquer based finish. Nitro cellulose lacquer will always remelt if it is rubbed with lacquer thinner. If your guitar is nitro, simply find an inconspicuous area and rub it with a wet cloth or Q-tip, if it is nitro, it will begin to smear. If it is poly, it will evaporate without doing any harm. If you choose to do this remember to let the area completely dry again before you cover it back up with a control plate or you will have a glued on plate that will chip the next time you try to remove it.
Fred

KenC · Post by **KenC** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:51 pm

Fred,

If somebody did something bad like, say, scratching the word "FUNK" into the sunburst finish on an '81 L-2000, do you think there's a reasonable chance it would blend out? I wouldn't try this repair myself, but I've been debating finding a good finisher to attempt this.

In a way I have to thank the previous owner for "customizing" this instrument. Everything else is stock and in good condition for a 30 year old bass, but the store I bought it from considered it to be nearly worthless because of the FUNK. I was able to rescue it for about a third of the going price for one of these.

Ken

zapcosongs · Post by **zapcosongs** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:23 pm

KenC: I think you got yourself a funk of a great deal!

Welcome KenM!!!

Ken Baker: Beautiful instrument. Wow!

Fred: Great week. Wonderful to be able to see things from the inside out. I have a stock, true, near-mint 1981 L1K in Black. If you were a betting man, what body wood do you think I have? - ed

btw, I'm not sure you are timing out. I have lost too many posts when I hit "send" and get up and leave the computer. Later, I'll discover a message indicated that someone posted while I was writing mine, and asking whether I want to revise my post in light of the new one. I hate this more than anything else here, but I've been told by Craig that this "feature" cannot be turned off. Boo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:23 am

ken, no resizing is necessary

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:25 am

meowmix wrote:Fred,

Session time out happens to everyone here...too often. It is the fact of life on this board.
Thanks for spending the time and effort to re-write your post.

Peter

i have been fortunate lately. start a post one night, come back, finish the next day and still good.

Fred Finisher · Post by **Fred Finisher** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:11 am

KenC,
This is a shame when you find this kind of damage on a vintage instrument but it sounds like you got a great deal because of it.
There is a possibility of making it less noticeable but without refinishing the face, almost impossible to make it undetectable. I would start by cleaning the area very well with paint thinner in order to remove any polish or wax that could be in the scratches. Then over a series of days brush or spray on layers of nitro until it is filled enough to smooth out by sanding. Then you need to blend the colorant after some detail brushwork to mask any of the scratches that went through the color. After words, sand it smooth and using some of the same color that was used to burst the edge, you will need to feather it back in. You might even have to go a bit darker on this horn than the other but it will still look better than it does now. After that, a few more coats of clear and you should be able to buff and blend it into the rest of the finish without refinishing the whole instrument.
Ed, My first guess would be maple because I am not sure we had phased out the poplar bodies yet in '81. It should be easy to tell by removing the control plate or battery plate if you have a series E. That way you don't have to remove the neck.
Fred

Post by **Craig** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:30 am

zapcosongs wrote: I have lost too many posts when I hit "send" and get up and leave the computer. Later, I'll discover a message indicated that someone posted while I was writing mine, and asking whether I want to revise my post in light of the new one. I hate this more than anything else here, but I've been told by Craig that this "feature" cannot be turned off. Boo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You might consider waiting the second or so it takes after hitting send. That way you will see the post before leaving the computer. Also, do you use Preview?

Hope this helps.

Brock · Post by **Brock** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:02 pm

KenC wrote:Fred,

If somebody did something bad like, say, scratching the word "FUNK" into the sunburst finish on an '81 L-2000

Looks like "FUNKY" from here.

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:49 pm

Brock wrote:
Looks like "FUNKY" from here.

Well, that changes everything

(good eye Brock)

zapcosongs · Post by **zapcosongs** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:15 am

Yeah, gotta keep it in light of this development! :+) - ed

Brock · Post by **Brock** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:05 pm

This could be a deal breaker for sure. You ship the bass to Nuno Bettencourt for repair. He's all, "Yeah, I can 'Get the Funk Out'".
[youtube]IqP76XWHQI0[/youtube]

...but then on closer look, it's "FUNKY". You're out shipping both ways at minimum, and that's if Nuno doesn't charge a shop fee.

Then again, with some careful persuasion, he might go ahead and clean up everything but the "Y"... ...you never know.

Shipping it to Nuno might be the best answer though, since that sort of repair might involve some Extreme measures!

-Brock

zapcosongs · Post by **zapcosongs** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Brock -
Just had a chance to view the vid. Part of me doesn't want to like it - but like it I do. Man, they are tight, they have a groove, the blonde is really something, and the brass section ices the cake.

As for the little smoker, maybe they can teach him to do ribs, a pork shoulder or a good brisket? In the meantime, I'm getting the funk out of here! - ed

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:58 pm

zapcosongs wrote:Brock -
Just had a chance to view the vid. Part of me doesn't want to like it - but like it I do. Man, they are tight, they have a groove, the blonde is really something, and the brass section ices the cake.

As for the little smoker, maybe they can teach him to do ribs, a pork shoulder or a good brisket? In the meantime, I'm getting the funk out of here! - ed

of course nuno couldn't possibly even pick up an l-2000. have you ever played one of his washburn's? they are tiny. nuno is 4 foot nothing and about 80 lbs, he'd fall over trying to pick up that bass. one helluva guitar player though.

KenC · Post by **KenC** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:39 am

Brock wrote:Looks like "FUNKY" from here.

It's FUNK, not FUNKY. The mark that looks like a Y is just a stray line. Or maybe the guy who did it was caught just before he finished...

louis cyfer wrote:he'd fall over trying to pick up that bass.

I just about fall over trying to pick it up! I don't have a scale to weigh it with, but it has to be well over ten pounds.

KenM wrote:What features or other aspects of the L1000 did you prefer over the L2000 and other basses of the time?

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I'll throw in my two cents' worth. The first L2Ks were essentially just L1Ks with a second pickup thrown in. The L2KE didn't come along for a couple of months. I haven't played a passive L2K, but when I compare my '80 L1K to my '81 L2KE (both with the mahogany/maple combination

) the L1K seems to have just a bit more fundamental. Maybe it's the simpler circuit, just like some of us have experienced with SC-1s vs. SC-2s.

KenM wrote:Many people think a Mahogany body-Maple Board combination provide the ultimate in tone.

I'm one of them. I also have an early '82 L1K for a rescue/restoration project. It has a swamp ash body with an ebony board. The pickup isn't wired up yet, but when I threw a new set of flatwounds on I could tell just from the acoustic tone and feel that it will have less fundamental and more ring than the 'hog/maple.

zapcosongs wrote:Yeah, gotta keep it in light of this development! :+) - ed

Ed, how did you manage to have the power back on so soon? We just got ours back at 1:00 am out my way. Not a moment too soon, either, as the temperature inside the house was still in the mid-90s and HUMID.

Ken

Brock · Post by **Brock** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:30 pm

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I'll throw in my two cents' worth. The first L2Ks were essentially just L1Ks with a second pickup thrown in. The L2KE didn't come along for a couple of months. I haven't played a passive L2K, but when I compare my '80 L1K to my '81 L2KE (both with the mahogany/maple combination ) the L1K seems to have just a bit more fundamental. Maybe it's the simpler circuit, just like some of us have experienced with SC-1s vs. SC-2s.

Did the early L-2000Es have an OMG switch like the L-1000s have?

KenM wrote:Many people think a Mahogany body-Maple Board combination provide the ultimate in tone.
I'm one of them.

I can go maple neck or ebony board, but the maple neck / mahogany body combo really is spectacular, particularly with the MFDs in the mix. What a great era for G&L.

The mahogany bodied L-1000 is my favorite production bass guitar of all time. Well made, with my favorite pickup system ever.

zapcosongs · Post by **zapcosongs** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:33 pm

Keep it simple kept to an order of spectacular magnitude. - ed

PS: Huh?

KenC · Post by **KenC** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:36 pm

Brock wrote:Did the early L-2000Es have an OMG switch like the L-1000s have?

Brock,

Sort of, but they aren't exactly the same. The OMG switch on the L-1000 is three-way (humbucker/single/single with bass boost). The L-2000E has a two-way switch, that seems to boost the bass in the single coil position. To my ears, it thunders either way.

Ken

Ken Baker · Post by **Ken Baker** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:24 pm

KenC wrote:Sort of, but they aren't exactly the same. The OMG switch on the L-1000 is three-way (humbucker/single/single with bass boost). The L-2000E has a two-way switch, that seems to boost the bass in the single coil position. To my ears, it thunders either way.

The bass "boost" for the L-1000 in OMG mode is provided by an additional cap that is placed between the single coil and ground. The cap bleeds a fixed amount of treble off the circuit beyond the treble cut provided by the control. The L-2000 E placed that cap in such a way that it bled treble off only one coil in a series humbucking pair of coils, which also added a bit of SC noise because the humbucking pair wasn't fully humbucking anymore.

The effect in either bass is the appearance of thundering low end. Which isn't really what is happening. It's less of the high end that the big soapbars are also capable of.

It's all relative.

Ken... The one from across the street.

Guitars by Leo (aka "GbL")

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