ASAT Bluesboy going out of tune

[maajka]

A month ago I received my ASAT Bluesboy, beautiful guitar: Tobacco sunburst, wood binding, vintage frets, gun oil, cream pickguard, tolex case. [actual price deleted by Admin] from Guitar Adoptions.
But it goes out of tune every couple of days. The 52 Reissue tele I used to have would stay in tune for weeks. Now, I'm not sure what's the problem and I though some of you might have a suggestion. I string it the same as the 52, I cut the strings 2.5 lenths beyond the tuners, stick it in, and hold it tense while I wind it. Is there some special technique for these tuners, or is it something else? I thought of putting the same vintage tuners on it as the ones on the 52 tele, but before I drill some holes I'd rather try something else.

[GDub]

What brand of strings are you using? Are they round or hex core? Round core strings can cause tuning issues with the style of stock tuners on the Bluesboy because you have to cut the strings before you wind them up to pitch. This happens because of the core slipping under the outer winds.

Also, all necks are different--even if made from the same type of wood. My Legacy has a VERY stable neck and requires very little re-tuning during a gig. My SC-2, on the other hand, needs more frequent tuning. Both have hard maple necks.

That said, I don't think of the SC-2 as having a lesser quality neck. It's simply a different (more temperamental) piece of wood. FTR, it doesn't go noticeably out of tune from song to song, but I do check its tuning more often than the Legacy in gig situations.

Peace...

GDub

[maajka]

I'm using Ernie ball regular slinky, whatever those are. So which strings do you recommend?

[MrRoundel]

... before I drill some holes I'd rather try something else.

That's a good idea. I think that I'd sell the guitar before I started drilling holes in the headstock to accommodate aftermarket tuners, unless I loved everything else about the guitar. I don't know of anyone who has complained about poor tuner quality on G&L's. They're probably Schallers, as I'm pretty sure that these are standard. I'm wondering if the trussrod is loose, allowing for the strings to increase bow at will, at least to some point, whether that would cause such a thing. It would seem that a loose truss rod is like no truss rod until the neck bows to it's counteracting force. I'd check the truss rod for at least some bow countering pressure. The instructions for this are available here in the gallery section, I believe. Good luck.

[GDub]

It's probably not strings (BTW, Slinkys are hex cored).

...But it goes out of tune every couple of days. The 52 Reissue tele I used to have would stay in tune for weeks.

I reread your post and am wondering how much you play the Bluesboy, and when did you change the strings? The "goes out of tune every couple of days" has me a bit perplexed. If you put new strings on it, played it for a few minutes, put it away and then pulled it out a couple of days later it's going to be out of tune. New strings stretch. It takes a bit of working for them to settle in. Also, the Tele staying in tune "for weeks" has me equally perplexed. How often did you change its strings? IMHO, the "never needs tuning" guitar stories are urban myth. Every guitar I own needs a little fine tuning when I pull it out of the case. Some more than others, but still, having to tune a guitar is normal. It's a piece of wood under tension with strings. Fluctuations in temperature or humidity can make a guitar go out of tune, etc. If you're regularly playing the Bluesboy and it only goes out of tune every couple of days I'd have to ask, "What's the worry?"


Peace...

GDub

[ieso]

Where I live the humidity levels are rapidly changing and this causes all my guitar to "go out of tune."

adjust truss rod, change strings, stretch them out properly, and store the guitar in a controlled environment (case with silica if too wet or humidifier if too dry)

[John_L]

You should never stretch strings, it puts the neck under undue stress can damage the machine heads and does absoulutly nothing to help tuning. In fact most string makers tell you not to stretch.
Try a set of DR strings and tie the strings on properly. http://fretnotguitarrepair.com/stringing.htm

[ieso]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "stretch" a string. I guess we shouldn't bend notes either?

From the D'Addario website:

Proper String Stretching
Use thumb and forefingers to gently stretch each string across its entire length. Tune the string to pitch and repeat the stretching procedure two or three times on each string.

Been doing this for 28 years with no problems.

Further:

> The Guitar Handbook, Revised Ed. by Denyer, p. 165: how to stretch strings

> Totally Guitar: The Definite Guide, Bacon and Hunter, p. 66: "Correctly stretching new strings is vital to getting them settled and able to hold their tuning."

[maajka]

Just so everybody knows it's the vintage style tuners I have on the ASAT, where the strings go inside the tuners (I don't know how else to describe it, English is not my native language).

I don't change the strings very often, depends on how much I play. I'm one of those guys that have sweaty hands, so basically when they start to look bad, or if I notice that I can't tune them right any more. I don't know what is usual or unusual, but that tele really stayed in tune for a long time. After a couple of days when the strings settle, it would just stay in tune. I don't play in a band, but I play every day, sometimes for short time, sometimes for hours.

But these G&L modern-vintage tuners are different, when I was putting the e string it slipped out of the hole several times. I had to wrap it around the shaft. It never happened on the tele (as I mentioned, I string these vintage style tuners like suggested by professionals). How short do you guys cut the higher strings for these type of tuners?
Also, could it be that the guitar just need some time to wear in, it's still factory fresh. The tele was a floor model.

Anyways, I need to raise the action a little one of these days so I'll check the truss rod too. Thanks for the help

[blargfromouterspace]

I had the G&L vintage tuners on my Classic S, the first time I tried to change strings I couldn't get them to stay. It was my first experience with those types of tuners. I spat it because I couldn't get them to grab, I bought locking Sperzels of eBay for $60, drilled some tiny holes and haven't looked back. It now holds its better than any guitar I've had. Just put Sperzels on it, I'm sure if you sell it the new owner won't mind having better tuning keys on it.

My new Bluesboy goes out of tune more frequently, I'm going to check the truss rod!

[John_L]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "stretch" a string. I guess we shouldn't bend notes either?

From the D'Addario website:

Proper String Stretching
Use thumb and forefingers to gently stretch each string across its entire length. Tune the string to pitch and repeat the stretching procedure two or three times on each string.

Been doing this for 28 years with no problems.

Further:

> The Guitar Handbook, Revised Ed. by Denyer, p. 165: how to stretch strings

> Totally Guitar: The Definite Guide, Bacon and Hunter, p. 66: "Correctly stretching new strings is vital to getting them settled and able to hold their tuning."

Yes D'Addario who make the cheapest nastiest strings on the planet, and want you to buy more of them.
You can find all sorts of quotes for doing the wrong things. If you feel you must stretch the strings then do some bends that force is engineered into the neck. If you pull them up with enough force to be doing anything at all then you are stressing the neck and the truss rod. Your second quote mentions correct stretching it doesn't say yank the strings hard.

[ieso]

Who ever said anything about yanking hard on strings? All I ever said was stretch strings out properly. Who said otherwise?

The quote from D'Addario actually says "...gently stretch..." not "yank"

These two sentences must have been typed in haste since the are simply incomprehensible:

If you feel you must stretch the strings then do some bends that force is engineered into the neck. If you pull them up with enough force to be doing anything at all then you are stressing the neck and the truss rod.

The first sentence is difficult to decipher but you seem to be suggesting that some string bending could be beneficial and the second sentence seems to negate the first by suggesting that any force applied to the string that could be beneficial is actually destructive to the guitar.

You seem to have a pretty harsh opinion of D'Addario but I bet at least 75% of guitar players use them and are perfectly happy with how they perform. I haven't broken a string in years and years, they are durable, and sound good to me.

I don't see why I should throw away almost three decades of experience, manufacturer instructions, and the advice of multiple, recognized experts because you found a random web page that says differently.

Anyway, I have tried DR strings and I thought they were of a lower quality than D'Addario.

BTW, new G&L guitars ship from the factory with D'Addario -- don't know why they would purposefully put junk on there when trying to impress customers trying out a new guitar.

[Boogie Bill]

It's not unusual for a guitar to have a settling in period.

If you have the vintage style SPLIT POST tuners (like on the old Fenders), they do require a special technique. I think I measure mine about by taking it past the next tuner on the headstock, and then 1/2 a tuner more. Before I cut the string, I make a SHARP 90 degree bend in the string and then cut it 1/2 to 5/8" beyond the bend. Put the bent string in the top of the post and begin winding. Measure twice, cut once.

The BEND IS IMPORTANT. The bend gives the shoulder of the split post something to grab onto. As you wind the string, the sharp edge of the post digs into the string, and virtually locks it onto the post.

If you have Schaller tuners (usually they have a bright chrome button), you can easily replace them with locking tuners. Use the Schaller brand lockers and they should drop right in. The Sperzel tuners usually come with a brushed matte chrome button, and they can be easily replaced with Sperzel locking tuners. As long as your're replacing with the same brand, they should be drop in replacements.

I have had some problems with high E strings (1st string) not wanting to stay in the hole on a couple of my split post tuners. If this happens to you, make a V-bend, a tiny hook, at the end of the string--say 1/16 to 1/8" from the edge of the string. I've also had luck with just making a small bend in the middle of the part of the string that goes into the hole.

If you have standard, hole through the post strings, there's an excellent picture tutorial on the Martin guitar website. Taylor does their stringing using a different technique, and I have had ZERO success using the Taylor technique. The Martin method locks the string to the post by winding the string back over itself.

Part of your tuning instability may be caused by an improperly cut nut. Try using the Big Bends Nut Sauce in the slots--just a VERY tiny amount. That should eliminate any binding in the slot. You can also apply a small amount on the apex of each saddle where the string crosses. I HIGHLY recommend this product!!!

Locking tuners are nice, and they are fast; but they do add more weight to the headstock--which may or may not be a good thing. But most guitars, with decent strings, quality tuners and proper stringing technique will stay in tune quite well.

I hope this helps. Congrats on your new guitar.

Bill

[John_L]

You seem to have a pretty harsh opinion of D'Addario but I bet at least 75% of guitar players use them and are perfectly happy with how they perform. I haven't broken a string in years and years, they are durable, and sound good to me.

I don't see why I should throw away almost three decades of experience, manufacturer instructions, and the advice of multiple, recognized experts because you found a random web page that says differently.

Anyway, I have tried DR strings and I thought they were of a lower quality than D'Addario.

BTW, new G&L guitars ship from the factory with D'Addario -- don't know why they would purposefully put junk on there when trying to impress customers trying out a new guitar.

A set of D'Addario strings cost £8.50 in the UK they cost 50p to produce. They use 45% less material than Rotosound or Ernie Bull and 60% less than DR which makes them rougher than cattle wire. In fact the you can mesure the cutting back of material in D'Addario strings with the current trend for heavier and heavier gauges. Simples. Another cost cutting move by D'Addario is making short strings. You cannot get more than one turn on the third and fourth strings with a three a side head and with Godin head you can't reach the fourth peg! (So they make Godin branded strings and sell them for $4 more than the normal ones) Personally I like DR strings they last a long time and give up a heck of a lot of tone. But other strings might suit you.
The real gripe I have D'Addario is their shady business practice. They were caught by the European Union in 2008 as being behind distrabution of low quality fakes of another companies product (in this case Vandorian reeds, Rico D'Addario's brand was losing ground due to low quality) Ibanez have lodged a similar complaint. The whole thing has blown up into a political row because of the involvement of Silvio Berlesconi.

[yowhatsshakin]

The BEND IS IMPORTANT. The bend gives the shoulder of the split post something to grab onto. As you wind the string, the sharp edge of the post digs into the string, and virtually locks it onto the post.

These split posts first gave me trouble, especially with the high E. I use stacked picks, folded paper, pieces of wood and what not to try to keep the string in the hole while tuning is up until it 'lodged' itself. Trouble was that I never made the length after the bend the right length so sometime it would be too little, sometimes too long (you would see the bend above the hole) but in both cases the string would pop out easily.

As a slight variation of Bill's technique, here is one that solved all my problems without gadgets and trickery.

1. Have the guitar flat on its back. Use a 'guitar workstation', soft cloth, foam rubber, or whatever underneath the guitar to protect it.
2. Line the slot up in the direction of the string, and lay the string in there.
3. Cut the string 2 posts beyond the post it is supposed to go on. For the high-E, B, and G strings, I pull the string back 3 posts and cut of beyond the post it is supposed to go on to create a couple of more wraps.
4. Insert the string straight down into the hole and let it bottom out.
5. Holding the string at the top of the post, move it toward the high-E post and then wrap one (1) winding around the post. The string will slide through your finger.
6. Use your string winder to tune it up while with the other hand keeping the stringin the nut. Try to keep the that part of the string between nut and post as taut as possible. (Most of the time, I just press the string on the headstock close to the post).

Hope this is clear enough and helpful.

[MrRoundel]

Of all the various stringing techniques I've seen and tried, no clear favorite has emerged. Without a doubt, the high "E" string can be a royal pain to get started. It usually takes me a couple of tries to get it. I like Boogie Bill's idea about placing a little hook bend at where the string passes through the tuner post. That makes sense. If I can remember it , I'll try it next time.

On D'Addarios: I'm no expert on strings, by any stretch (If you'll forgive the expression.), but do find that they feel sharper on my fingertips than say, Ernie Balls. If I had microscope, I might compare their surfaces to see why that is. Maybe someone who has a microscope could check it out? Perhaps the string company who feels they have the most tactiley pleasing surface could promote that aspect by showing pictures of the string surface super-magnified? That way one could ask, (paraphrasing/modifying Groucho), "Who are you going to believe, me, your lyin' eyes, or your fickle fingertips?"

[ieso]

A set of D'Addario strings cost £8.50 in the UK they cost 50p to produce. They use 45% less material than Rotosound or Ernie Bull and 60% less than DR which makes them rougher than cattle wire. In fact the you can mesure the cutting back of material in D'Addario strings with the current trend for heavier and heavier gauges. Simples. Another cost cutting move by D'Addario is making short strings. You cannot get more than one turn on the third and fourth strings with a three a side head and with Godin head you can't reach the fourth peg! (So they make Godin branded strings and sell them for $4 more than the normal ones) Personally I like DR strings they last a long time and give up a heck of a lot of tone. But other strings might suit you.
The real gripe I have D'Addario is their shady business practice. They were caught by the European Union in 2008 as being behind distrabution of low quality fakes of another companies product (in this case Vandorian reeds, Rico D'Addario's brand was losing ground due to low quality) Ibanez have lodged a similar complaint. The whole thing has blown up into a political row because of the involvement of Silvio Berlesconi.

Well, I wouldn't pay $13 for a pack of strings either. Here, I'm paying about $3 on average ... as for the other issues, they seems specific to you and your situation -- your guitars, high prices due to geographic location, etc. I don't know where you've come up with these percentage differences in string brands vis-a-vis materials being used in the product. If you can provide a citation for this information or direct me to objective analyses, I'd be more than interested in reading about it. As for shady business, if I boycotted every business engaged in some infarction or another I doubt I'd be buying anything.

I did try DR strings (years ago) and they didn't last very long. I tried a bunch of different brands, materials, and gauges and nothing seemed better for the price than D'Addario. But I'm more than willing to pay a bit more for a better string if it's out there.

[GDub]

People arguing ad nauseum about strings is always a gas! LOL!

If you like a certain brand (for whatever reason) and you "stretch" or don't stretch the strings after you put on a fresh set--whatever floats your boat.

By choice, after close to 40 years of stringing up guitars, I now exclusively use expensive strings--Pyramid (for electric) and Newtone (for acoustic). I don't use them because they're expensive, but because trial and error has led me to believe they are the best. Needless to say, I'm a BIG fan of both brands. And... I ALWAYS gently stretch my strings while tuning up a fresh set. Works just fine for me EVERY time, and has for many, many years.

Peace...

GDub

[fendertweed]

the notion that gentle & appropriate stretching of strings will somehow compromise the integrity of any well made guitar is utter rubbish IMO, based on 43 yrs. of playing and my failure to yet ruin a guitar or a decent set of strings by doing proper, GENTLE stretching.

That includes D'Addario, Pyramid, SIT, Thomastik-Infeld, DR, and other strings.

It also results in them staying in tune reliably, with some normal guitar to guitar variation since guitars, like every piece of machinery, are an accumulation of tolerances.

[sirmyghin]

Yes D'Addario who make the cheapest nastiest strings on the planet, and want you to buy more of them.
You can find all sorts of quotes for doing the wrong things. If you feel you must stretch the strings then do some bends that force is engineered into the neck. If you pull them up with enough force to be doing anything at all then you are stressing the neck and the truss rod. Your second quote mentions correct stretching it doesn't say yank the strings hard.

this is complete nonsense, you are not going to be generating forces that can damage a neck by stretching a string. The neck is not going to physical shift inelastic amounts to accommodated 1 single string being pulled. Consider the force generated stretching the string, and its stress level, then consider how much force would be required to generate an equivalent stress are on the neck. Even though the steel probably has a strength in a factor of 20x higher than the wood (and an elastic modulus of about 20) The area differences are vast. The neck is easily more than 100x large than the string, therefore requiring 100x the force to cause an equivalent stress. The neck is going to deflect far less than the string, not move in complete compensation with the string, so you are not 'just stressing the neck' The are under constant tension, and are not going anyway, the string is what has the heavy stress in this case.

As for tuning stability, Get locking tuners, you don't wind the strings around the posts then at all (well no full wraps, 1/2-3/4 a wrap max.) Then the strings cannot slip winds, tighten or loosen up there and increase tuning stability. My Carvin DC135 with them needs tuning once a week or so when I played it often. My C66 with a locking nut, about the same really. Not having locking tuners is a odd variety of barbarism