Please Educate Me on Tremolo Springs

[Philby]

Hi everybody. I have a '95 S-500 that I purchased off EBay 2 years that I've had a real love/hate relationship with. For a start the tuning stability on the top 3 strings has been very poor. Simple bends and very subtle trem use were enough to throw it out of tune. On top of this the acoustic properties of the guitar were very disappointing. The guitar was dead for all intents and purposes, but for some weird reason an open D string made the body resonate like I would have expected for all notes. Sustain was otherwise very poor.

I've tried all kinds of different strings, different nuts (bone, TUSQ and graphite) and set the guitar up to factory specs, all to no avail. I've had 4 sets of pickups in it and it still sounded like a dog. Then last week Boogie Bill posted up a check list to fix tuning issues on the DF bridges. To cut a long story short, while working down Bill's check list I noticed that my guitar only had 2 tremolo springs. The claw screws were wound nearly all the way in to create enough tension to make the tremolo float as per spec.

So I bought a set of 3 no name tremolo springs and installed them yesterday. The result? It might as well be a new guitar. All the problems are fixed. She resonates beautifully, the strings don't feel dead, and she has excellent tuning stability. The original MFD pickups now sound wonderful. The thing I can't figure out is how an extra trem spring could make so much difference? The old springs look like new, although there are only 2 of them.

Does anyone have any insights about what's going on here? Could dodgy tremolo springs be the reason so many people block off their bridges to get tuning stability and to improve sustain and resonance? I'm impressed by the improvement but bewildered by what it is I've fixed.

[louis cyfer]

tremolo springs can certainly make a difference. a lot of people like 5 raw vintage springs, there is more mass and more contact surface with more springs. springs that are too stretched out also seem to lose their resonant properties.

[jakkanen]

It doesn't surprise me that the number of tremolo springs makes a difference. There are multiple factors in play. If you only have two springs, they have to be tighter, which makes them resonate at higher frequencies (tremolo springs vibrate both sideways and lengthwise). There's a complex interaction between the vibration of the strings and the vibration of the tremolo springs.

Another thing to consider is that the combined spring factor of parallel springs equals the sum of the spring factors of the individual springs, hence the spring factor of a two-spring system differs significantly from a three-spring system. You can trivialize the guitar as being a mass (the bridge) suspended between two springs (thetremolo springs, and the strings), and the difference in stiffness on the tremolo spring side might have an effect on string vibration.

Maybe some day I'll try and see if one of my tremolo-equipped guitars sounds better with four tremolo springs instead of the three that I have now.

[Miles Smiles]

With more springs, the vibrato is harder to push down. That's because the force you need to expand a spring isn't linear.

[yowhatsshakin]

With more springs, the vibrato is harder to push down. That's because the force you need to expand a spring isn't linear.

You're off on your physics. The force when extending/compressing a spring is linear leading to Hooke's law: F = -k∙x where k is the spring constant and x the displacement/amplitude. The fact that it is harder to push down the tremolo arm a certain amount when more springs are used compared to the same amount with fewer springs is because of the reason jakkanen gave: for multiple springs each with a spring constant ki the equation would generalize to F = -Σki∙x and the factor between 2 and 3 strings should be 1.5 for identical springs. Only when the amplitude is so large that deformation takes place need higher order terms be added to it all.

- Jos

[Philby]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I seem to remember Hooke's Law experiments from high school. He was Dutch too wasn't he Jos?

If I understand everybody correctly, would installing 5 springs give even greater benefits than 3? Apart from making the tremolo stiffer to operate (which I'm happy to live with).

It seems like my S-500 can only accommodate 3 springs maximum as the claw has only 3 tabs, and the bridge itself has only 3 holes. But it does make sense now that a more rigid bridge should transfer vibrations better to the body.

I'm probably over thinking, but do some metals transmit vibration better than others? i.e. could the frequency response of the guitar be affected by what the tremolo springs are made of? I know the materials that saddles and bridges are made of seems to be important.

[zapcosongs]

Just found this great thread. Philby, if you really like what you're getting with your three springs, just leave it alone.
This relates to something I can't stand about my wife. She can never just leave well enough alone. Not surprisingly, her inability to tame this urge ends up mucking things up more often than not. Beware ;+) - ed

[louis cyfer]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I seem to remember Hooke's Law experiments from high school. He was Dutch too wasn't he Jos?

If I understand everybody correctly, would installing 5 springs give even greater benefits than 3? Apart from making the tremolo stiffer to operate (which I'm happy to live with).

It seems like my S-500 can only accommodate 3 springs maximum as the claw has only 3 tabs, and the bridge itself has only 3 holes. But it does make sense now that a more rigid bridge should transfer vibrations better to the body.

I'm probably over thinking, but do some metals transmit vibration better than others? i.e. could the frequency response of the guitar be affected by what the tremolo springs are made of? I know the materials that saddles and bridges are made of seems to be important.

raw vintage springs are softer, so you can use 5 and still have the trem functional. as far as differences in materials, springs fluctuate less on that, as compared to trem blocks, which are just a solid mass and can be made of pretty much anything, the springs need to be some sort of hardened spring steel.

jos, i thought the force exerted by springs only approximate linear function and only in their low strain region?

[Philby]

Just found this great thread. Philby, if you really like what you're getting with your three springs, just leave it alone.
This relates to something I can't stand about my wife. She can never just leave well enough alone. Not surprisingly, her inability to tame this urge ends up mucking things up more often than not. Beware ;+) - ed

Good advice Ed. OK, I'm done with the tremolo springs. It's back to playing the darned geetar. Anway, I'd hate to remind you of your wife.

[Miles Smiles]

Only when the amplitude is so large that deformation takes place need higher order terms be added to it all.

OK thanks, you're right. I mixed it up, it's the fact that it is linear and so you can simply sum that forces.

[louis cyfer]

Just found this great thread. Philby, if you really like what you're getting with your three springs, just leave it alone.
This relates to something I can't stand about my wife. She can never just leave well enough alone. Not surprisingly, her inability to tame this urge ends up mucking things up more often than not. Beware ;+) - ed

Good advice Ed. OK, I'm done with the tremolo springs. It's back to playing the darned geetar. Anway, I'd hate to remind you of your wife.

i think it's only your looks that remind him of his wife .

[louis cyfer]

Only when the amplitude is so large that deformation takes place need higher order terms be added to it all.

OK thanks, you're right. I mixed it up, it's the fact that it is linear and so you can simply sum that forces.

the forces would be equal 2 or 3 springs because of the different amount of stretch. they'd be equaling the total force of the strings, which is the same regardless of the number of springs.

[Philby]

i think it's only your looks that remind him of his wife .

I aint THAT hairy Louis.

Oops, sorry Ed.

[Miles Smiles]

the forces would be equal 2 or 3 springs because of the different amount of stretch.

The forces are only equal, as long the system is in balance (strings - springs). When you move out of balance and when the string tension gets less, you can simply multiply the needed force with the number of springs.

So, to strech out 4 springs for an amount of 3 mm it needs twice the force, it would take with 2 springs of the same kind. While the amount of stretch doesn't matter, up to the point where the springs get deformed, as yowhatsshakin already wrote.

Some time ago (erm, in fact one year, but enough to forget the details), I did calculate the different values for a German forum, this is the Google translation of that report: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... ost5299545

And that's the original URL:
http://www.musiker-board.de/faq-worksho ... ost5299545

[Craig]

Here's a related topic which might be of interest: What's the logic behind the Leo era copper tremolo spring?

[Boogie Bill]

Hey Philby...Are you going to send me a check, or do you want me to invoice you for my consultant's fees?

Glad I could help!

Bill

[Philby]

Hey Philby...Are you going to send me a check, or do you want me to invoice you for my consultant's fees?

Glad I could help!

Bill

Sorry Bill, I spent my last $4.50 on the tremolo springs so you'll have to make do with those warm and fuzzy feelings from knowing you helped someone out