Learning note for note...or your own way...

[Dr B]

I guess I should not admit this - but quite often when trying to learn a song I get very board trying to learn all the notes so it sounds like the record. Maybe this is because i've only been playing for a short period of time (about 4 - 5 years), and started late in years. However, once i get the main feel down - i cant help myself but just going off on one and doing my own thing..for better or worse.

Do others here get board in the same way and do you always try to change it / mix it up a bit when doing covers? Is this a good sign?

What was the last thing you learned note-for-note and when was this (last week? thirty years ago?)?

[KenC]

I'm not sure whether I've ever bothered learning a solo note-for-note. I will learn bass lines note-for-note sometimes, since that gives a lot of clues about how the chords are strung together (if it's not obvious from a rhythm guitar part).

Ken

[sickbutnottired]

I am learning "The Entertainer" note for note from a Chet Atkins recording right now. I don't do that much, but it is good for me every now and again. I don't read at all, so it's kind of a project.

[RickT]

I'm not one to learn a solo note-for-note. I figure those guys just made that solo up anyway and usually when you see them play they are doing something different. However, there are some solo's that I think are so good that I learn them and play them for that song. The solo from Badge and the Dicky Betts solo from Statesboro Blues are two of my favorites.

RickT

[louis cyfer]

i think learning it exactly is a very good learning tool to develop your vocabulary, instead of always using the vocabulary that you already have. once you can play it exactly, there is nothing wrong with going your own way. most people who don't learn it note for note, especially on the more difficult passages do so because they can;t, and there is an excuse to get out of it. there is a difference between being able to do it and choosing not to, or not doing it because unable to.

[Lazer]

i think learning it exactly is a very good learning tool to develop your vocabulary, instead of always using the vocabulary that you already have. once you can play it exactly, there is nothing wrong with going your own way. most people who don't learn it note for note, especially on the more difficult passages do so because they can;t, and there is an excuse to get out of it. there is a difference between being able to do it and choosing not to, or not doing it because unable to.

+1 on this one, its an excellent way of developing oneself. A lot of times You get forced to improve on Your
techique. So learning it is ALWAYS good. Then if You want to change something thats a different story.

I always have problems remembering parts so I rarely play a song exactly the same twice. If i need to be consistent
I need to refresh often so I rarely stay true to the original. A lot of times I'm to lazy and settle for something
that's comes automatically and is "close enough".

Cheers
L-zr

[RickT]

i think learning it exactly is a very good learning tool to develop your vocabulary, instead of always using the vocabulary that you already have. once you can play it exactly, there is nothing wrong with going your own way. most people who don't learn it note for note, especially on the more difficult passages do so because they can;t, and there is an excuse to get out of it. there is a difference between being able to do it and choosing not to, or not doing it because unable to.

I agree it is a good learning tool, however, I'll disagree with the rest of your post. For instance, I've never heard a live version of Eric Clapton performing "Badge" where the solo is a note for note copy of the studio version. Is he incapable of playing his own solo? I think not. Dicky Betts solo for Statesboro Blues is different each time he plays it, is he incapable of reproducing his own work? Again, I think not. My personal opinion is that a lot of those solos are improvisations themselves. For me, the challenge is not learning the solo note-for-note, but learning the licks and runs that make up that particular solo and learning how to incorporate those into my improvisations.

Accusing people of making excuses for not learning note-for-note is silly.

RickT

[louis cyfer]

i think learning it exactly is a very good learning tool to develop your vocabulary, instead of always using the vocabulary that you already have. once you can play it exactly, there is nothing wrong with going your own way. most people who don't learn it note for note, especially on the more difficult passages do so because they can;t, and there is an excuse to get out of it. there is a difference between being able to do it and choosing not to, or not doing it because unable to.

I agree it is a good learning tool, however, I'll disagree with the rest of your post. For instance, I've never heard a live version of Eric Clapton performing "Badge" where the solo is a note for note copy of the studio version. Is he incapable of playing his own solo? I think not. Dicky Betts solo for Statesboro Blues is different each time he plays it, is he incapable of reproducing his own work? Again, I think not. My personal opinion is that a lot of those solos are improvisations themselves. For me, the challenge is not learning the solo note-for-note, but learning the licks and runs that make up that particular solo and learning how to incorporate those into my improvisations.

Accusing people of making excuses for not learning note-for-note is silly.

RickT

you are making my point. they are capable, certainly, but choosing not to play it the same. i am not saying people should play things note for note live. absolutely not, i am saying that learning it note for note is an important learning tool, which is what the question was.

[Dr B]

Thanks one and all for the views and comments. Interesting discussion. I agree with the above suggestion not to always default back to what you know you can do and not try new things if the song demands it - fair point well made. Its important to be pushed by new songs - but this is not always the case.

I also agree with Rick T. In fact, Clapton is famous for never playing the same solo, or any song, the same, two nights in a row. That's why he is still a major live artist and still relevant.

One problem I also have is remembering the whole bloody thing. This is a combination of being over 40 and not having enough time to commit the notes in each bar to memory.

Let me give an example. I've been spending a few months learning "The Stumble" (Peter green version). There are two problems I encountered. One was, many of the licks are slightly repetitive - but with slight variations in them. I found that very confusing because the licks in different parts of the song were so similar. So it was the similarity - yet different nature of the licks that required a lot more effort. When practising over the backing track - i'd get to a point of confusion then just drift off onto my own solo cos a I screwed up.

The other problem i have is Peter Green was so f**king good back in the day that its taken me much longer to try to nail those bluesey inflections and try to get that 'feel' down. I'm loving the journey though.....

To any other noobs out there listening, try to learn the stumble - its jammed packed with licks and ideas for soloing. Its just one long lick fest....

[louis cyfer]

of course clapton is not playing the same solos. he is improvising. but when learning, it is great for the learner to be able to play it exactly. then, when you play live, do your own thing. you'd be surprised how many greats did do that. srv, could play things just like bb, albert, king and collins, freddy and a slew of others. he learned them like that, didn't stop him from having his own very recognizable style.

i think it is not age, but lack of good practice habits that is stopping you. play it slow until it is perfect. also start at the end, and keep learning it going towards the beginning adding a few bars at a time. that way instead of getting lost and never playing the end right, and playing the beginning so much that you are bored with it, you learn the end better and the farther you get into the song, the more confident you get by being more comfortable with those parts.

[Elwood]

... also start at the end, and keep learning it going towards the beginning adding a few bars at a time. that way instead of getting lost and never playing the end right, and playing the beginning so much that you are bored with it, you learn the end better and the farther you get into the song, the more confident you get by being more comfortable with those parts.

Brilliant advice, I look forward to using it.
Thanks

[helle-man]

The rule of thumb in pro guitar circles is this: Whatever is on the CD is "the bible", and you better learn it note-for-note. You can always "make it your own" later.

I remember years ago when I was in LA and there were auditions for Juice Newton's band. All these killer players tried out, including Redd Volkaert. Who wouldn't want Redd playing guitar in their band? Redd is a brilliant improviser and breezed thru the songs doing his thing.

Well the guy who got the gig was the one who learned all the parts, including the solos, note for note. That's what the big names want.

In the Hellecasters, the "fun" part is thinking up and recording the solos. The hardest part is relearning your solos to play them naturally live note for note. You may not always play your solo note for note, but once it's on a CD it tends to be what people want to hear.

Learning note-for-note is good discipline, and it helps you understand technique better.

My 2¢.
Will

[louis cyfer]

The rule of thumb in pro guitar circles is this: Whatever is on the CD is "the bible", and you better learn it note-for-note. You can always "make it your own" later.

I remember years ago when I was in LA and there were auditions for Juice Newton's band. All these killer players tried out, including Redd Volkaert. Who wouldn't want Redd playing guitar in their band? Redd is a brilliant improviser and breezed thru the songs doing his thing.

Well the guy who got the gig was the one who learned all the parts, including the solos, note for note. That's what the big names want.

In the Hellecasters, the "fun" part is thinking up and recording the solos. The hardest part is relearning your solos to play them naturally live note for note. You may not always play your solo note for note, but once it's on a CD it tends to be what people want to hear.

Learning note-for-note is good discipline, and it helps you understand technique better.

My 2¢.
Will

dream theater did that with their drummer auditions. picked the one that played it exactly, i though at least one guy actually improved on them, they were not interested.

[sirmyghin]

i think learning it exactly is a very good learning tool to develop your vocabulary, instead of always using the vocabulary that you already have. once you can play it exactly, there is nothing wrong with going your own way. most people who don't learn it note for note, especially on the more difficult passages do so because they can;t, and there is an excuse to get out of it. there is a difference between being able to do it and choosing not to, or not doing it because unable to.

With Louis here for sure. Learning it note for note allows you the ability to dissect it, note for note, and see what makes it tick. I find you can get more out of looking at why someone used those licks or notes, than merely playing them. Keep a close eye on the relationships/intervals within a passage and between passages, as well as the other instruments.

[louis cyfer]

i think learning it exactly is a very good learning tool to develop your vocabulary, instead of always using the vocabulary that you already have. once you can play it exactly, there is nothing wrong with going your own way. most people who don't learn it note for note, especially on the more difficult passages do so because they can;t, and there is an excuse to get out of it. there is a difference between being able to do it and choosing not to, or not doing it because unable to.

With Louis here for sure. Learning it note for note allows you the ability to dissect it, note for note, and see what makes it tick. I find you can get more out of looking at why someone used those licks or notes, than merely playing them. Keep a close eye on the relationships/intervals within a passage and between passages, as well as the other instruments.

indeed. looking at the chord tones, their timing, connecting notes, embellishing notes, the harmonic context and why it was used is how you learn from it and will be able to use them later.

[suave eddie]

To Dr B


I hope you have the original recording of The Stumble by Freddie King (who Peter Green copied it from).
Freddie King has many cool instrumentals like this that make good practice if you're trying to cop licks from a master.
Of course there is the classic Hideaway, and then check out San Ho Zay, Sidetracked, and Freddie's Midnight Dream.
All classics.

[Dr B]

Hey Eddie

Sure thing man and thanks for the other suggestions to try. Hideaway is certainly on the 'to do' list. I dont have a backing track for the original - if you know where one is - do let me know. Mine (the green version) comes with TAB from Guitar Techniques magazine.

When i was young and stupid I never thought those older blues guitarists were.....well....that good. Most played slow and had a nice but simple tone. However, I have seen the light and now I get what all the fuss was about. As I said, I was young and stupid.

I used to listen to guitarists (i.e., Jeff Beck, SRV, Clapton, Green, even Gary Moore) talk about their influences and hear just about everyone cite BB King / Freddie King etc, but I thought "You dont sound anything like them"....I then grew up and realised that influence is a broad term and does not mean emulate or copy...Great stuff.

[suave eddie]

Hideaway is certainly on the 'to do' list. I dont have a backing track for the original - if you know where one is - do let me know.

Here's a backing track for "Hideaway" I found on YouTube:

[youtube]CSJ1MNTHdrw[/youtube]


Here's one for San Ho Zay:

[youtube]GnyEARNBepE[/youtube]

There are several free programs you can use to convert these to MP3

[Kit]

I like learning songs, riffs, and solos note-for-note, but not necessarily for every song I learn. The reason I do that is because the timing, cadence, note selection, even fretboard location can give a piece the characteristics it has; without those elements I don't believe I've come close to be able to reproduce the essence of the music. This does not mean that I become robotic playing something I learned. There is a solo from a song I learned note-for-note a few years ago, and last week for some reason I decided to play along to the song itself, and to my surprise my solo is no longer note-for-note to the original.

Kit

[Boogie Bill]

Usually I will try to get it note-for note, but sometimes only the basic riffs. It depends on the song.

One approach I've used is to ask myself, "How would Stevie Ray do 'I Saw Her Standing There'?" How would Clapton approach this other song? Imagine Hendrix covering a Sam Cooke tune--how would he do that?

I think it's been a successful approach for me, and I've taken songs by Beatles+SRV, or Beatles+EC; added a whole lot of Boogie Bill, and come up with some really unique things--things I'm proud of.

One thing to try when your learning stuff by tab: go ahead and learn it note-for-note. Now learn it in a key three half-steps down.

Now we're having FUN!

Bill

[louis cyfer]

Usually I will try to get it note-for note, but sometimes only the basic riffs. It depends on the song.

One approach I've used is to ask myself, "How would Stevie Ray do 'I Saw Her Standing There'?" How would Clapton approach this other song? Imagine Hendrix covering a Sam Cooke tune--how would he do that?

I think it's been a successful approach for me, and I've taken songs by Beatles+SRV, or Beatles+EC; added a whole lot of Boogie Bill, and come up with some really unique things--things I'm proud of.

One thing to try when your learning stuff by tab: go ahead and learn it note-for-note. Now learn it in a key three half-steps down.

Now we're having FUN!

Bill

that is a nice approach bill. take a song from someone and try to imagine it in someone else's approach. you are always gonna put yourself into it as well.
as far as learning note for note, that doesn't apply to you much, once you have done it enough times, and are on a professional level, you can go your own way after learning just the basic riff, or even alter that a bit. of course you can do it note for note anytime if you want to. it's funny that people bring up clapton or any other greats as examples, kind of like people bring up srv or jimi as reason not to take lessons, the rules that apply to mere mortals are not the same as for the super talented.

[timewave]

WOW!
Lots said in this post all I can add is in learning these solos note for note adds to your own ability to solo,and use bits of what youved learned
to your own orig.solos or songs,the harder it is to learn the more I want to learn it(imo) when I finally do I find myself exploring these solos more and more,changing them here and there until I can use them ,or bits of them for other things.I have to agree w/Louis it is a good habit to do and if you get sick at times take 5 and start again.After all if you practice or use things you already
know thats all you"ll ever know.
Steve

[desertrat07]

Maybe this is because i've only been playing for a short period of time (about 4 - 5 years), and started late in years. However, once i get the main feel down - i cant help myself but just going off on one and doing my own thing..for better or worse.

Dr. B, I feel the same way. I started playing about 7 years ago at the age of 35, and it's been challenging for me (1) to find the time to learn songs note for note and (2) to stay interested in a given song long enough to learn it note for note.

To combat my inclination to simply noodle (which in my opinion leads to very little musical growth, except perhaps with regard to technique), I recently picked up "50 Progressive Blues Licks" from TrueFire. I'm sure there are tons of other such videos out there, but this one really speaks to the style of music I like to play and the cool thing is that my speed, feel and musical vocabulary has really picked up since I started working with it "note for note." Even learning just a few of the 50 licks so far has opened my eyes to new ways of seeing the fretboard. I have also started using a metronome to some degree to build speed and timing, which can be extremely boring but well worth the effort.

Another thing I have started doing instead of just "noodling," is listening to a streaming blues channel (e.g., Pandora, etc.) and trying to play certain licks note for note. While I don't have the skill yet to play too many songs note for note, I find that simply focusing on smaller bits of information (licks) is pretty fun and helpful to my overall playing.

[Dr B]

Maybe this is because i've only been playing for a short period of time (about 4 - 5 years), and started late in years. However, once i get the main feel down - i cant help myself but just going off on one and doing my own thing..for better or worse.

Dr. B, I feel the same way. I started playing about 7 years ago at the age of 35, and it's been challenging for me (1) to find the time to learn songs note for note and (2) to stay interested in a given song long enough to learn it note for note.

To combat my inclination to simply noodle (which in my opinion leads to very little musical growth, except perhaps with regard to technique), I recently picked up "50 Progressive Blues Licks" from TrueFire. I'm sure there are tons of other such videos out there, but this one really speaks to the style of music I like to play and the cool thing is that my speed, feel and musical vocabulary has really picked up since I started working with it "note for note." Even learning just a few of the 50 licks so far has opened my eyes to new ways of seeing the fretboard. I have also started using a metronome to some degree to build speed and timing, which can be extremely boring but well worth the effort.

Another thing I have started doing instead of just "noodling," is listening to a streaming blues channel (e.g., Pandora, etc.) and trying to play certain licks note for note. While I don't have the skill yet to play too many songs note for note, I find that simply focusing on smaller bits of information (licks) is pretty fun and helpful to my overall playing.

Hey Man thanks for the advice. You hit the nail on the head with me, i just cannot stop myself having a 'noodle'. More discipline is needed.

I'm now 41yrs old, have a demanding and unpredictable job - so often cannot devote as much time as i would like to really engaging with the music in a more comprehensive way.

Often i just try to make sure i keep enjoy playing as i do not want to get sooooo pissed off i put the guitar down for 6 months as that would be going backwards and not forwards.

My guitar tutor has me starting the CAGED system now.....lets see how that goes.....

I've got the stumble down in terms of remembering all the differing licks - now i just have to nail the phrasing - which i actually enjoy practising...

[sirmyghin]

Good luck Dr B.

The CAGED system works really well for some folks. Personally I couldn't wrap my head around that style of thinking. Everyone has their own approach to the fretboard, which has lead to some interesting methods.