The Impact Of G&L

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:18 pm

Received an e-mail from Fender today announcing their new Select Series. I spent some time looking at these new instruments. They have Maple Cap tops, or KOA, natural binding, locking tuners and compound radius necks. They even casually mentioned a birdseye neck. The MSRP is $3500 and $3000 depending on which model you get. That will probably equate to $2800 or $2500 in the retail market. What is amazing to me is that I have G&Ls on the wall that equate to these new builds other than a compound radius neck and we see them all the time on our forum. Has G&L had an impact. I think so and at half the price or less. I can assure you for an additional $1000 G&L could come into a compound neck! Competition has had an effect and in my opinion these new offerings could go the way of the Firebird X. How many guys do you know that plays one??? Or a Robot?? I do have a compound radius neck and it will not convince me to sell all my other-- Darwins theory on economics :shocked028:s. Its Friday night and as Ed would say. "What the Heck". Boy, do I feel good!

Michael-GnL-Michael · Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:31 pm

I do not see an obvious reason for this Select Series to fail. Fender may be jumping on the proven success in features offered by G&L. It is not risky or esoteric like the robot. It is a desirable brand in the public's perception. It has a chance to be as successful as a limited edition. Those guitars are beautiful and they say Fender on the headstock. This alone is enough for quite a few sales. I don't think G&L will lose many sales to this Select Series though. I cannot know of course but it seems to me that people interested in this Select Series would not have G&L on their radar anyway. The promotional video on the Fender website seems to be promoting the series as being cool over quality...........not to suggest G&L is not cool but some people do avoid it for not being Fender........ however its strongest feature is quality as I see it.

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:47 am

My point is that the retail prices on the select models are considerably higher than some of their custom shop models and the features are no different than their American Deluxe series other than the body woods. They use Schaller Locking tuners on custom shop models and they are using the F-logo Asian built locking tuners on the select models. This all equates to profit, probably a good marketing strategy, but I doubt that I would buy one because of the price/value. -- Darwin

Michael-GnL-Michael · Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:05 pm

darwinohm wrote:My point is that the retail prices on the select models are considerably higher than some of their custom shop models and the features are no different than their American Deluxe series other than the body woods. They use Schaller Locking tuners on custom shop models and they are using the F-logo Asian built locking tuners on the select models. This all equates to profit, probably a good marketing strategy, but I doubt that I would buy one because of the price/value. -- Darwin

Hmm... I think the title of the thread and the content of your original post speaks to something entirely different.

Being that you have focused on quality in your second post, I was referring to G&L when I mentioned its strongest feature was quality In case that was not clear:

Michael-GnL-Michael wrote:...its strongest feature is quality as I see it.

NickHorne · Post by **NickHorne** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:09 pm

G&L's 2 1/4" heel width will always mean much, much more to me than any compound radius. Fender's fingerboard feels really cramped after a G&L, like always aware of falling off, and even with fancy ball-ended fret dressing it still feels less secure on a Fender. And if, like me, you like a wider nut, then G&L is totally the best solution going in every way.
I pray the G&L heel width stays forever, and no-one gets any crazy idea to reduce it.
The wood and the build of G&L are just fantastic, as well as the design insights and the MFD's; the real cure for that generally unsatisfying vibe that's given off by most other guitars these days.

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:34 pm

MGM, I can confuse myself so this is not unusual. Perhaps I should have added "and others" to the title. My intent is not to focus on quality. Fender has essential added a new level to their American series, the American Deluxe previously being their highest level next to the Fender Custom Shop. The offering in the Select series is something G&L has been supplying for years. I have to believe that G&L and some of the smaller companies are starting to have some effect on the big F. In their American products they have always offered bland woods and necks, almost all of them looking identical other than colors. Now they are offering what G&L has been offering for years and at probably at 1.5 times the price of a comparable G&L and this isn't even considering quality. G&L doesn't have a compound neck radius but I have seen many pictures of G&L's over the years that have premium woods and birdseye necks. Sorry for any confusion I may have created and in the end none of this is going to change anything. I will say that I own several American Deluxe Fenders and I always considered them a good value. I doubt if I will be looking for a Select model. I will buy an extremely tricked out G&L for a lot less. -- Darwin

Michael-GnL-Michael · Post by **Michael-GnL-Michael** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:48 pm

darwinohm wrote:...They use Schaller Locking tuners on custom shop models and they are using the F-logo Asian built locking tuners on the select models. This all equates to profit............I doubt that I would buy one because of the price/value.

This seems to suggest a compromise in quality to me.

True, none of this is going to change anything but you brought it up in a public forum so it ends up being discussed, (just in case anyone thought this was an argument.

).

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:20 pm

MGM, I would say the F locking tuners are not the quality of the Schallers, at least from an appearance standpoint and I own both of them, but that is only my opinion. I think it great that we can discuss ideas on the forum. That is what they are all about and we benefit from discussions. Everyone, have a great Saturday evening. I sure am, the grand daughter are staying over tonight!-- Darwin

sirmyghin · Post by **sirmyghin** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:15 pm

Might be Fender started taking them seriously, hard to say though. I do have something with a compound radius coming in though, should be fun (10-16", to give even playability due to the 10" nut the OFR7 comes with, bridge will need to be set at 17 or 18" to get it in the sweet spot).

Personally though, I would not be so quick to attribute this to G&L directly, but the market as a whole. The custom guitar market is more prominent in the last decade, and with it, a damned near obsession with exotic woods by a lot of folks. I would say that is more the drive. People are getting less content to take what the factory wants to give them, and strike out to get exactly what they want for aesthetics (and most exotic wood adding is entirely aesthetic, who is kidding who). Time to pony up really.

sickbutnottired · Post by **sickbutnottired** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:14 pm

Darwin,

I agree with you that fender is definitely trying to take a stab at the custom, and semi-custom market with this move. To me, $3K for a bolt-on neck guitar is wretched excess, so maybe I'm not the right guy to ask. I kinda think this is great news for G&L and similar manufactures; i mean this provides a direct comparison for their dealers!

"Sure I can get you the same thing from F, it's just going to cost you 3000 USD". At least some people are gonna buy with their ears at that price delta!

Craig hinted that G&L's sales numbers in '11 where good. Which is great news (see the Namm post on this forum.)

As far as the specific features, I agree with Kyle, this tone wood thing is getting blown out of proportion. And for me, compound radius is a solution looking for a problem. I would rather NOT have compound radius and be able to touch up my fret's with my farmer tools. I like locking tuners, but on fixed bridge stuff they don't add playability, IMHO.

Jeremy

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:05 pm

Sirny and SBNT, thanks for your ideas. When I look at the new Fender offerings and consider that I can buy a Ron Kirn Custom build, really decked out for less than the Fender Select series it becomes a no brainer. This is something for some of these manufacturers to consider and it has to be good for the custom builders. If Craig happened to run into the Fender Select at NAMM, I'll bet he had to smile when looking at it.-- Darwin

Submersible · Post by **Submersible** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:06 pm

I saw the select series at NAMM. My buddy nudged me as walked by the display and said, "check out that lawyer tele." If a tele is a good, putting a flamed maple top on it doesn't make it better. But I'm sure there is a market for that kind of thing, and different strokes and all.

sirmyghin · Post by **sirmyghin** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:30 am

sickbutnottired wrote: To me, $3K for a bolt-on neck guitar is wretched excess, so maybe I'm not the right guy to ask.

One of them eh?

Bolt ons are in no way inferior to set necks or neck throughs, infact they set up the best by giving the most options. Built right they are all just about equal, despite what qualities have been attributed to them over the years (always making ceteris paribus claims, when all other things are not equal). With modern construction methods, even the 'construction cost' differences are minimal. If anything, bolt on is the LEAST forgiving method of construction, as you are counting on your neck pocket to not suck, and there will be no glue to fix it.

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:55 pm

sirmyghin wrote:
sickbutnottired wrote: To me, $3K for a bolt-on neck guitar is wretched excess, so maybe I'm not the right guy to ask.
One of them eh? Bolt ons are in no way inferior to set necks or neck throughs, infact they set up the best by giving the most options. Built right they are all just about equal, despite what qualities have been attributed to them over the years (always making ceteris paribus claims, when all other things are not equal). With modern construction methods, even the 'construction cost' differences are minimal. If anything, bolt on is the LEAST forgiving method of construction, as you are counting on your neck pocket to not suck, and there will be no glue to fix it.

i think set necks provide less transfer and sustain, the glue that penetrates the wood at the contact surfaces really interferes with the resonance transferred from the neck to the body. a good bolt on with a proper neck pocket, and with well tightened screws, can actually create a connection that is on par with and can even be better than a neck through, and far superior to a set neck. i learned this from one of the top luthiers, and he demonstrated it after explaining it, i had to agree despite my previously held contrasting opinion.

CGT · Post by **CGT** » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:44 am

I think that this latest product offering suggests that G&L has had no impact whatsoever on the way that Fender does business.

In the late 1990s, Apple was six months from collapse and recalled founder Steve Jobs to rescue the sinking ship. At the time, Apple, like Fender, was selling a bewildering array of products: dozens of models of computers with competing, confusing specs and lengthy monickers, printers, monitors, handhelds, etc. Jobs came in and streamlined the product offering into two markets and two categories of products: Professional and Consumer, desktop and laptop. Apple then started offering four products: iMac and PowerMac for the desktop market and iBook and PowerBook for the portable market. The only options hard drive capacity, RAM and graphics card/memory.

The simplification strategy worked and now Apple (thanks to a combination of this strategy and the creation of iconic products like the iPod, iPhone and iPad) is biggest brand on the planet. G&L has a similar strategy: Two lines: USA and Tribute, a handful of models, a handful of options, and an emphasis on value, quality and a positive user experience. Fewer people play G&Ls but how often do you meet an unsatisfied G&L customer? (The most common complaint about G&L products is that they are not Fender products and therefore lack mojo, which says more about Fender's marketing clout than the quality of G&L).

When I hear about things like this new line of guitars, I can't help but think that Fender's marketers are living in the past and trying to create a product that meets every single possible consumer segment. I believe that such a strategy leads to eventual losses despite massive sales. After all, when your first experience with a brand are negative, then the chances that you will go back, especially for a luxury product like a guitar, are slim.

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:41 am

CGT, your are absolutely correct on the Apple recovery. Sooner that later, hopefully, manufacturers discover that they should focus on what they are best at. I firmly believe that if G&L is to remain a serious player, they need to continue focusing on a quality product as they always have. I believe their challenge is to market their product rather than expanding their product line.

I think that all manufacturers including the imports have has an influence on Fender. Keep in mind that their new Select offering requires no R&D as all the parts are currently being used on other models. The new offering of woods is taking what was custom shop offerings and putting in a standard Fender offering at a much higher price than a custom shop model. I believe that Fender has become a company driven by profit rather than true representation of value driven instruments. Look at the profit the Select series would offer Fender for the reasons I have previously stated. I have many Fender guitars and I love every one of them. Am I buying them new? Nope. They are getting into all these new models much like Gibson, who has diluted the market with artist models. I continue to look at new Gibson models. I have not noticed any improvement in quality and the buyer needs to try before buying. I will buy a G&L based on appearance and inspection of the instrument and that includes online if I had to. I do not have to hear it as I know it will sound good.

I think we are going to see some changes before long if the economy continues a slow recovery. Bean counters may become just bean counters in some of these companies and they will get back to basics of building good products and relying on reputation.

All one has too do is look at the computer industry and see what world competition has done to the our big ones like Unisys, CDC. IBM and others. -- Darwin

Michael-GnL-Michael · Post by **Michael-GnL-Michael** » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:18 pm

CGT wrote:.....The simplification strategy worked and now Apple (thanks to a combination of this strategy and the creation of iconic products like the iPod, iPhone and iPad) is biggest brand on the planet. G&L has a similar strategy: Two lines: USA and Tribute, a handful of models, a handful of options, and an emphasis on value, quality and a positive user experience. Fewer people play G&Ls but how often do you meet an unsatisfied G&L customer? (The most common complaint about G&L products is that they are not Fender products and therefore lack mojo, which says more about Fender's marketing clout than the quality of G&L)......

The circumstances of G&L and Apple are oranges and apples. There was much more to Apple's turnaround than a simplification of their product line and the creation of iconic products...... <= the creation of iconic products and selling those on the public was a HUGE! factor and no simple feat. If you had the fortitude and insight to direct your resources into new territory it is safe to say without the charismatic Jobs leading the way within the company and selling the products on the public it would not have happened. G&L has very little in common with Apple......except they both have legendary founders and the products have had significant historical impact on culture. There was no failing G&L for Leo to return to and save with a fresh direction and slew of iconic new products to permeate the world with. The two are separate cases with separate stories and nothing in one that parallels the other.

sickbutnottired · Post by **sickbutnottired** » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:50 pm

sirmyghin wrote:
sickbutnottired wrote: To me, $3K for a bolt-on neck guitar is wretched excess, so maybe I'm not the right guy to ask.
One of them eh? Bolt ons are in no way inferior to set necks or neck throughs, infact they set up the best by giving the most options. Built right they are all just about equal, despite what qualities have been attributed to them over the years (always making ceteris paribus claims, when all other things are not equal). With modern construction methods, even the 'construction cost' differences are minimal. If anything, bolt on is the LEAST forgiving method of construction, as you are counting on your neck pocket to not suck, and there will be no glue to fix it.

Actually, I am NOT one of them! I don't really know about the constructions cost thing, I have always heard that it's more expensive to manufacture, so that's why I singled out bolt-on. But I agree with you, bolt-on is NOT inferior relative to tone...

louis cyfer wrote:I think set necks provide less transfer and sustain, the glue that penetrates the wood at the contact surfaces really interferes with the resonance transferred from the neck to the body. a good bolt on with a proper neck pocket, and with well tightened screws, can actually create a connection that is on par with and can even be better than a neck through, and far superior to a set neck. i learned this from one of the top luthiers, and he demonstrated it after explaining it, i had to agree despite my previously held contrasting opinion.

I would agree with this. I have a good friend who's son knocked a early '70's neck-through Gibson off it's stand. Now it's a set neck. And he says he notices slightly less sustain.

I also agree that bolt on can create a very nice joint for transfer, I'll save my wild theories for another time.

thunder100 · Post by **thunder100** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:11 am

Darwin

as I was looking for a non pickguard ASAT with classic pickups I am tempted by the Select series.Only problems are price & colour

Lets see

Roland

Question would also be what a custom shop ASAT like this may cost

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:26 pm

Roland, I seriously think G&L needs to offer a no pickguard as an option on the Asats classics and Bluesboys. It will be interesting to see the street price on the Selects. -- Darwin

JagInTheBag · Post by **JagInTheBag** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:18 pm

Specs: http://www.fender.com/products/select/m ... No=0170305

THIS IS A NO-BRAINER! Bring the ASAT Carved top to the USA line, kill the pick guard and countersink the control plate. You now have a better guitar and a HUGE price advantage. Custom Creations- the ORIGINAL (Leo Fender) Select.

P.S. I don't see the huge advantage to the compound radius neck. Has G&L ever experimented with them?

P.P.S. Do the G&L product planners read this forum? Take it into consideration?

thunder100 · Post by **thunder100** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:17 am

Why must you post it again??

Its a beauty

Only reason I resist is my ASAT dlx in tobaccoburst.

Let's see wether there is a G&L reaction

Roland

NickHorne · Post by **NickHorne** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:46 am

Any supporters for putting the back pup in a steel plate, butted up to a saddle-lock? Since we're starting in Special-type territory, this is just one change to make it happen.

A quick personal one on compound radius: I routinely make whole-tone bends as low as at the second fret, and compound actually makes this a pain; I'd always much prefer a plain radius.

Miles Smiles · Post by **Miles Smiles** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:59 am

JagInTheBag wrote: kill the pick guard and countersink the control plate.

You mean something like this,

but without the Tribute on the headstock?

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:09 am

JagInTheBag wrote:

Specs: http://www.fender.com/products/select/m ... No=0170305

THIS IS A NO-BRAINER! Bring the ASAT Carved top to the USA line, kill the pick guard and countersink the control plate. You now have a better guitar and a HUGE price advantage. Custom Creations- the ORIGINAL (Leo Fender) Select.

P.S. I don't see the huge advantage to the compound radius neck. Has G&L ever experimented with them?

P.P.S. Do the G&L product planners read this forum? Take it into consideration?

i swear someone already had this idea. here is one i put together. i already had the neck, but that would cost around 250-300 to get a usacg neck for it. and the rest cost me 400 bucks. cypress body, tru oil finish, fralin pups, callaham bridge, ferrules, knobs, and rutters control plate. all the best stuff. it is a flamed maple brazilian rosewood neck by chris clem.

astutzmann · Post by **astutzmann** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:35 am

NICE!

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:56 am

That is a masterpiece Louis.-- Darwin

JagInTheBag · Post by **JagInTheBag** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:42 am

louis cyfer wrote:
JagInTheBag wrote:

Specs: http://www.fender.com/products/select/m ... No=0170305

THIS IS A NO-BRAINER! Bring the ASAT Carved top to the USA line, kill the pick guard and countersink the control plate. You now have a better guitar and a HUGE price advantage. Custom Creations- the ORIGINAL (Leo Fender) Select.

P.S. I don't see the huge advantage to the compound radius neck. Has G&L ever experimented with them?

P.P.S. Do the G&L product planners read this forum? Take it into consideration?
i swear someone already had this idea. here is one i put together. i already had the neck, but that would cost around 250-300 to get a usacg neck for it. and the rest cost me 400 bucks. cypress body, tru oil finish, fralin pups, callaham bridge, ferrules, knobs, and rutters control plate. all the best stuff. it is a flamed maple brazilian rosewood neck by chris clem.

Very nice Louis. How does she sound?

thunder100 · Post by **thunder100** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:15 am

Miles Smiles wrote:
JagInTheBag wrote: kill the pick guard and countersink the control plate.
You mean something like this,

but without the Tribute on the headstock?

+2

and the old style Pickups-->would also not mind old bridge if that is necessary to complement the PU sound

Roland

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am

thanks guys. she sounds great. she has a nasty bite to her. i found a gel stain that brings out the grain. it doesn't penetrate evenly, and can control the contrast by how fine you sand it before applying the satin. i used several pieces of scraps to get the desired result, then just many coats of tru oil.

lshines · Post by **lshines** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:30 pm

re the new fender marketing: coming from "another manufacturer's" guitars (they're darn good guitars) that has outdone Gibson, and now I've "found" G&L quality (thank you G&L people!), I think that fender is just going after a market that has diluted their sales - PRS and their "look" (and, yea, darn good quality), and has utlilized their (and Gibson's) price points - and hope to sell more to the buyers that want that look and can pay for it. In a few years, they will be able to sell current models at a higher price - and everyone will think, as opposed to the "super models", they are a "real bargain" - but will still be the same inconsistent quality.

Also on the BaM forum an interesting point was made that in Europe, if it says F or G - no matter what piece of crap a guitar is, it still sells for prices that we wouldn't pay - why? So, now, fender ups the ante/price with some decent wood looking like somethign super custom....and covers an upscale market - for little extra cost - but more profit. If typical for them, the quality will not continue - G&L's quality continues - and yes, they should take what they already have and just add a few "choices" within their existing lines...and up the marketing budget ! We know G&L quality and worth, more people need to know about it.....imho
Linwood

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:28 pm

lshines wrote:re the new fender marketing: coming from "another manufacturer's" guitars (they're darn good guitars) that has outdone Gibson, and now I've "found" G&L quality (thank you G&L people!), I think that fender is just going after a market that has diluted their sales - PRS and their "look" (and, yea, darn good quality), and has utlilized their (and Gibson's) price points - and hope to sell more to the buyers that want that look and can pay for it. In a few years, they will be able to sell current models at a higher price - and everyone will think, as opposed to the "super models", they are a "real bargain" - but will still be the same inconsistent quality.

Also on the BaM forum an interesting point was made that in Europe, if it says F or G - no matter what piece of crap a guitar is, it still sells for prices that we wouldn't pay - why? So, now, fender ups the ante/price with some decent wood looking like somethign super custom....and covers an upscale market - for little extra cost - but more profit. If typical for them, the quality will not continue - G&L's quality continues - and yes, they should take what they already have and just add a few "choices" within their existing lines...and up the marketing budget ! We know G&L quality and worth, more people need to know about it.....imho
Linwood

fender's recent quality is quite good on their mid level us guitars. the am standard is very good in the last 2 years. as good as the deluxe or custom shop actually.
prs to me represent a visually appealing guitar designed to be displayed on a wall. the sound and playability are not nearly as good, certainly does not warrant the price point, a g&l tribute is better. i haver wanted to like prs, they look so good, but i have only found one that was a decent player, and sounded ok, not great.

lshines · Post by **lshines** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:20 pm

I disagree with the idea that PRS isn't good. They're damn good, imho, and the ones I've had /played, are much better made than Gibson and Fender (at the same price point) generally. But, they SHOULD BE DAMN good - a $2.5k - and above - should be, and they are. PRS' are tone machines! IMHO, they (like other brands) have too many models. But, how many people - especially new players - are going to pay that much for a guitar? (that's why they, G&L, Gibson, and Fender, etc. all have a cheaper line - typically made in Asia - that are the "entry point" for the general public, teens, etc.).

We are very lucky that G&L makes such great quality at the price they are! I do think that G&L can "beat" Fender at their new game, just by adding a few "perks" - like the Korina models, the Special Deluxe (I'm ASAT oriented), the Jr., etc. for a few $'s more, and up the marketing effort (if they want to - of course that costs $'s - which we have to pay for in the guitars we buy), to build the awareness in their brand. And they should - should be proud of the quality they provide. I wish I could buy more of them.

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:54 pm

they are made very nicely, but something is missing from them. they don't play like a 3k guitar should, nor does gibson or the fender custom shop. but they sound far worse. most players i know play prs because of the looks, and they change all the guts to try to wrench some tone out of them.

NickHorne · Post by **NickHorne** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:18 am

On the G&L / Fender / marketing / models front, I personally care the most about whether G&L continue to produce high-quality, semi-custom tone monsters, which Fender do not, in general, manage to do.
The Fender "contest" is almost a side-issue to this writer, provided it doesn't damage G&L's core virtues in any way.
Similarly, if Tributes keep the bankers happy, fine. Just so long as no influential bean-counter decides the main US line is economically redundant / more bother than worth etc.....

Muleya · Post by **Muleya** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:59 am

I agree with Nick...I don't really care too much what Fender does, as long as G&L continues the tradition of quality we've seen up to now. I think Fender makes some decent instruments, but it was the belief that I could get more for my money in a G&L that led me to buy my first G&L. And the confirmation of that belief when I received that first G&L led me to buy my second!

Obviously, I want G&L to remain viable, but I hope that never means putting production volume over production quality!

sickbutnottired · Post by **sickbutnottired** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:20 pm

Just got a new MF catalog, and there was a ton of G&L clones in it. And boy, are they proud of them! Also, there are a bunch of typo's on the G&L page; I was shocked to see a whole bunch of $1500 'Tributes' for sale.

timewave · Post by **timewave** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:02 am

I have played top of the line Fenders and when I rec. my comanche could not believe the diff. in tone and assortments of sounds! I have also read that the quality of Fenders was kinda going down hill. My gtr (G+L) plays alot smoother, all that tech stuff,well I dont know about, but I'll take my G+L over any Fender any day! Oh I do own a Fender Tele,U.S. and it also plays nice and is made well,but still G+L for me!

Boogie Bill · Post by **Boogie Bill** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:06 pm

Well, here's where I'm coming from in my choice of G&L.

First you have to understand that I've owned a Leo Fender made guitar since my mother bought me my first electric guitar, back around 1965-66. I've ALWAYS been a Fender guy. After that c. 1960 Duo-Sonic, I bought a c.1968-69 Telecaster Thinline in ash, with a Bigsby. In 1973, I bought my 1960 Strat that I owned until 1991. I bought Music Man Sabre II in 1979, and a second one in 1985. A few months after I sold the Strat, I went looking for a 1962 American Vintage Strat, and came home with a Legacy instead. And I've played G&Ls ever since--I now own 17 of them.

So, from my long history with my 1960 Strat, I came to realize that the vintage Strat has some deficiencies, at least for the way I play.

--The tone controls are limited in range; there is NO control over the bridge pickup tonality.

--The Kluson tuning machines are marginal at best.

--The truss rod is difficult to adjust.

--The frets are small, and the 7.25" radius does not lend itself to easy and accurate string bending.

--The pickups are weak, but they do have a clear natural sound suitable for a wide variety of styles. Adjust them too close though, and the guitar has "Strat-itis"--the dreaded Eb sub-harmonic.

--The Synchonized Tremelo isn't very synchronized. It is very limited in range, and requires constant maintenance. The saddle screws dig into your hand. The arm is difficult to work with: there is no control over the side tension, and the arm must be removed for the guitar to fit properly in the case. The guitar seldom returns to pitch after even light tremolo use. The Floyd Rose system fixed many of these problems, but it too has many flaws. And they are a pain to restring.

To my mind, the Legacy gave me the right combinations of upgrades--better tuners, better tone controls, better pickups, a better vibrato, and no strat-itis. If I need more powerful pickups, or different tonalities--the Comanche, S-500 and Legacy Special fill that need--all with the same ergonomics as the Legacy. It isn't so much that a G&L is better than a Fender (Fender does build some very nice guitars), but Fender doesn't make the guitar I need--the guitar with the combination of features as excuted in the Legacy-bodied guitars.

Additionally, the guitars are very well made--certainly comparable to the vintage Fender instruments I have played and owned. There is just tremendous bang-for-the-buck value in these guitars.

And that's why I choose G&L over Fender, and over the many companies that make strat-styled guitars.

Bill

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:50 pm

bill, interestingly i don't have a lot of those issues with my fender strats. i move the tone over to the bridge, and no tone controls in the circuit in the 2 and 4 positions.
i use the kluson locking tuners (made by gotoh), works very nice.
i agree on the truss rod on older strats, and many of them are faulty anyway.
i get the necks fretted with whatever frets i like, i prefer the jescar evos, neither company offers those. i have no issue with the bending being not easy or accurate on 7.25" radius, although 9-9.5 is my favorite.
i do replace the pups in the strats, would in a legacy as well.
i like the dfs trem a lot, but the vintage strat trem performs nicely too. the saddles screws don't stick out with the proper down force angle on the strings, none of mine do, (whatever my tech does, i have never had a screw stick out), i don't have any tuning problems, it returns to pitch always and i never take the trem arms out, they all fit in the cases with the arm turned backwards.

i always have to change some stuff around on all guitars, never had one come perfect, even a custom ordered g&l i would have to tinker with, as not all options i want are available.
i think g&l's are a great bang for the buck and much better made at the same price point than current fenders.

jwebsmall · Post by **jwebsmall** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:12 am

I recently bought the new 2012 Fender American standard strat (white) and tele (jade pearl metallic)
both of which come stock with the Fender Custom Shop pickups now. THe strat has the new trem block
alloy. These are the best stock Fender American standards in the last 40 years IMO.

I think they souped them up because of the Fender IPO. Both guitars were from the first batch and
they came out 10 days before the public release. I heard and played them and I couldn't pass them up.
The local GC is a super store or whatever they call it and they were shipped 10 guitars over a week ahead.
I got in to see them and was blown away. I A/B'ed the allotment and they didn't all sound the same. I
didn't want to buy them but I picked the two sweetest ones to my ears and bought them the second day
they went on sale (only 3 were left after my purchase). I suspect that the standard production runs will slack off
over time so that is why I grabbed these.

I found I prefer a straight radius neck to the compound radius. And while locking tuners are convenient
unless my ears are fooling me they subtract something from the sound. I suspect the Fender American
Deluxe models will come out later this year with the custom shop pickups and new trem block but I prefer
the standard to the deluxe model in part due to the straight radius neck and non locking tuners (the deluxe
has compound radius and locking tuners). The strat came setup with the trem floating and the guitars
were plek'ed and ready to play. I prefer locking tuners for convenience but I don't get them on guitars any
more because of the tone difference.

To me the high end Taylors and PRS both have extreme build quality but I don't care for the tone of
either (but for a few exceptions.) The more recent PRS pickups have been a huge improvement in
tone IMO but still not enough to make me want to buy another PRS.

I would prefer to buy an ASAT Deluxe with a belly cut (and perhaps a carved top someday
when G&L gets around to making them) to a custom 24. The tribute version of the ASAT Deluxe
is one of the best guitars under $1,000 you can buy IMO.

twinreverb · Post by **twinreverb** » Sun May 13, 2012 8:20 am

I did get to play one of there new Strats at GC and yes it did play good
but at over 2G i would not buy it. In the past when I had a G&l Asat Classic
the neck on that guitar was better then most necks on Fender guitars. The
guitar that I have today id a 2009 Fender American Standard Telecaster the
price was to good to pass up. The guitar was used and was Mint 3 Tone Sunburst
Alder Body and Maple Neck. I play thru a reissue Fender 59 Bassman LTD so I'm
starting to look at another G&L Asat Special just like the one (Carl Perkins) played.
That means I have to save my money and it seems that Fender is asking a lot of
money for there new line which puts the price for collectors only. G&L in some ways
are a much better playing guitar I should have kept the one I just sold

Looking forward to getting back to a G&L Asat Special it may take a while and that
will make it so much better

louis cyfer · Post by **louis cyfer** » Sun May 13, 2012 8:42 am

twinreverb wrote:I did get to play one of there new Strats at GC and yes it did play good
but at over 2G i would not buy it. In the past when I had a G&l Asat Classic
the neck on that guitar was better then most necks on Fender guitars. The
guitar that I have today id a 2009 Fender American Standard Telecaster the
price was to good to pass up. The guitar was used and was Mint 3 Tone Sunburst
Alder Body and Maple Neck. I play thru a reissue Fender 59 Bassman LTD so I'm
starting to look at another G&L Asat Special just like the one (Carl Perkins) played.
That means I have to save my money and it seems that Fender is asking a lot of
money for there new line which puts the price for collectors only. G&L in some ways
are a much better playing guitar I should have kept the one I just sold
Looking forward to getting back to a G&L Asat Special it may take a while and that
will make it so much better

the new am standards are great guitars, but do not compare to a g&l, and at about the same money, it's a no contest.