Shielding

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

cutting the copper sheeting is really easy. just scissors. there is no complicated shapes either, you do each flat side and the bottom and just tack them together. i actually think applying the tape well is harder.

Tape is adhesive backed. What holds the sheet metal in place? I know you solder the pieces together but what keeps it all firmly in place so it does not move and rattle in the guitar?

[louis cyfer]

just spray adhesive. rattle can 3m stuff. works great.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

just spray adhesive. rattle can 3m stuff. works great.

Does that dry or remain sticky? Can you be specific about the 3m Spray? A link maybe?

Thank you

[Elwood]

A link maybe?

Thank you

I could hazard a guess...the duct tape of the aerosol world :

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/e ... formation/

[Ken Baker]

Do you line your cavities with copper tape?

Yes. Pickup cavities and control cavity.

What do you think about using two layers of copper tape?

In all seriousness, I think it's a waste of tape. One layer should be all that's necessary. It might be relatively thin, but it's a solid sheet of copper. Properly grounded, it should take care of it.

Ken...

[Ken Baker]

Do you line your cavities with copper tape?

Yes. Pickup cavities and control cavity.

What do you think about using two layers of copper tape?

In all seriousness, I think it's a waste of tape. One layer should be all that's necessary. It might be relatively thin, but it's a solid sheet of copper. Properly grounded, it should take care of it.

Ken...

[louis cyfer]

ken, since you posted it twice, does that mean that he should apply the copper tape twice after all?

elwood got the 3m spray right.

[Ken Baker]

Actually, you should probably apply 1024 layers in honor of me crashing the board. Or getting blown off the board because of too many database connections while I was trying to submit one (1) post. Or something.

I'm going to bed. With a little luck, you'll only get one post from this response.

Ken...

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

Actually, you should probably apply 1024 layers in honor of me crashing the board. Or getting blown off the board because of too many database connections while I was trying to submit one (1) post. Or something.

I'm going to bed. With a little luck, you'll only get one post from this response.

Ken...

Does that account for the lag getting here earlier this evening which seems to occur too frequently with a forum that has maybe 6 people logged in at the most on average?


Okay summing this up:

Option A:

1. I get some of that 3M adhesive
2. spray it in the cavity*
3. trim copper sheet metal
4. stuff it in there
5. spot solder it including a wire soldered to a cluster ring of all the guitar electronics ground wires
6. cut a sheet to match the pickguard

=> Is there a reason for not using copper on the pickguard and instead using aluminum (a plate of aluminum)? Is there a special interaction between copper and aluminum? Why not use all copper?


Option B:

1. Line the cavity with copper tape
2. spot solder it including a wire soldered to a cluster ring of all the guitar electronics ground wires
3. apply a layer to the back of the pickguard




* I know you spray the parts not the cavity.

[louis cyfer]

i used the aluminum because the already cut out sheet for the pickguard was available. the toughest part is the pickguard, cutting the switch and the pup is not exactly easy.

[Miles Smiles]

If the guitar is silent in the hum cancelling positions (middle on ASAT or SC-2, positions 2 and 4 on Legacy, S-500, ...), there's in my opinion enough shielding in the electronic cavity, as all the disturbance is caught by the pick-ups themselves.

[Ken Baker]

If the guitar is silent in the hum cancelling positions (middle on ASAT or SC-2, positions 2 and 4 on Legacy, S-500, ...), there's in my opinion enough shielding in the electronic cavity, as all the disturbance is caught by the pick-ups themselves.

This, with few qualifications.

Ken...

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

If the guitar is silent in the hum cancelling positions (middle on ASAT or SC-2, positions 2 and 4 on Legacy, S-500, ...), there's in my opinion enough shielding in the electronic cavity, as all the disturbance is caught by the pick-ups themselves.

This, with few qualifications.

Ken...

Well, even my noisy Legacy is quiet in the middle positions. This does not solve the problem at all then. I am doing all of this so I can enjoy the neck position. As it is now I can't use it. The buzz is almost as loud as the notes.

Would you all agree noiseless is the way to go? Why shield at all when no shielding is silent in the middle positions? Any thoughts about this?

[Elwood]

Well, even my noisy Legacy is quiet in the middle positions. This does not solve the problem at all then. I am doing all of this so I can enjoy the neck position. As it is now I can't use it. The buzz is almost as loud as the notes.

Would you all agree noiseless is the way to go? Why shield at all when no shielding is silent in the middle positions? Any thoughts about this?

eliminating hum by adding a RWRP pickup to your signal is different than shielding a single coil signal from
EMFs. I would follow the instructions on Ken's site and I bet you'll hear a 75%+ improvement, possibly with a slight loss of highs .

http://www.bassesbyleo.com/sb2_shield_job.html

The only way to know what really works for you is to do it and make observations from that point on.

I run two fuzzfaces pretty hot and the noise is managable ( rolling back the volume a little when not soloing etc.)...through a clean set-up there is little to no noise with my single coils ( even better if I step back from the rig and computer etc...)

I'd order one of these (3/4" or 2"), and get out the screwdriver and soldering iron ;
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics ... _Tape.html

[Ken Baker]

Well, even my noisy Legacy is quiet in the middle positions. This does not solve the problem at all then. I am doing all of this so I can enjoy the neck position. As it is now I can't use it. The buzz is almost as loud as the notes.

More points to consider:

A single coil pickup without a him canceling mate will be noisy to one degree or another. It's the nature of the beast.

If your playing environment is electrically noisy, an un-mated single coil pickup's noise WILL be exacerbated. Environment plays a HUGE role here. Got an old house with ungrounded old-style fluorescent lighting in your area (CF is amazingly not too noisy), you've got a noisy environment. Got a computer with one of those fancy clear windows so you can see the LED fans, you have a noisy environment. How about an old CRT computer monitor or a CRT-based TV? Noisy to at least some degree. Got commercial rated comms gear (Ethernet switches come to mind)? A little more noise. Maybe a rusty old transformer on a power company pole in your back yard - noise source.

I have a table lamp here in my office. Solid freakin' brass. Noisy as hell regardless of what kind of bulb I use, even to the L-2500 in humbucking mode. The circuit feeding it has a noise producer someplace, so I just grounded the brass of the thing and all is quiet. The point here is to look to your environment.

==============

About that SB-2. The split pickup is a wonderful hum canceling pair. The bridge pickup is an MFD single coil. If I only run the split humbucker, the bass is quiet as a church mouse. Add in some of the bridge pickup and noise can be heard, with that noise increasing as the volume goes up. So the shielding under the pickguard near the pickup is overkill. Covering the wire channels is necessary because the wires are unshielded. Still, it ain't quiet.

Ken...

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

.

It looks like shielding is unnecessary if the guitar is quiet in the middle positions according to Miles and Ken.

I will replace the pickups with something noiseless. Fortunately Strat-quack is relatively easy to come by. The solo/isolated pickup positions are a different problem. Unfortunately I prefer the isolated tones over the quacky positions.

.

[louis cyfer]

.

It looks like shielding is unnecessary if the guitar is quiet in the middle positions according to Miles and Ken.

I will replace the pickups with something noiseless. Fortunately Strat-quack is relatively easy to come by. The solo/isolated pickup positions are a different problem. Unfortunately I prefer the isolated tones over the quacky positions.

.

shielding will help even in those cases. doing the shielding may reveal that you will be fine without hum canceling pups. if not, the shielding is still of benefit, because hum canceling pups still benefit from shielding.

[Miles Smiles]

It looks like shielding is unnecessary if the guitar is quiet in the middle positions according to Miles and Ken.

What I really meant is, that one should not pay too much attention to the electronics cavity, if that's the case. Trying to shield the pickups (-cavity) may reduce the hum, but will not cancel. Noiseless ones, or using the trick with an extra coil would be much more efficient - if you suffer from a noisy environment, which luckily does not happen too me, except last session gig, where I had the Legacy only and was reduced to the in-between-positions.

Next time I'll go there, the guitar I carry will have humbuckers. That's the advantage, if you have too much guitars, on the other hand it's always a pain to choose only one for a gig.

[louis cyfer]

shielding does not cancel hum. that is for sure. the pups that do change the tone too much for me.

[NickHorne]

Z-coils are fine for me, sort of superstrat in regular wiring and also middle-and-bridge-in-series is like a nicely fattened-up Tele character (love that).
Does anyone have any views on the Suhr / Fralin coil-in-a-strat-backplate system of putting a non-string-sensing humbuck signal into the ground line of the guitar?
I absolutely agree with Louis about traditional humbuckers feeling frustrating tonewise, and sort of dynamically compressed; they're not for me either.

As to shielding, this is well worth a look:
http://billlawrence.com/Pages/ForTeleLovers.htm

Very interesting about the aluminum characteristics. My old P-bass had maybe around .015" thick aluminum sheet (still pretty workably thin) behind the scratchplate, and I believe early strats were similar. I can do without the last few % of top end, it doesn't seem important to me unless to make superfizz compression-assault pop product stuff, and the rounding-off (we're not talking about LOSS, just gentle reduction) of the very highest frequencies is actually very nice to me.

[louis cyfer]

Z-coils are fine for me, sort of superstrat in regular wiring and also middle-and-bridge-in-series is like a nicely fattened-up Tele character (love that).
Does anyone have any views on the Suhr / Fralin coil-in-a-strat-backplate system of putting a non-string-sensing humbuck signal into the ground line of the guitar?
I absolutely agree with Louis about traditional humbuckers feeling frustrating tonewise, and sort of dynamically compressed; they're not for me either.

As to shielding, this is well worth a look:
http://billlawrence.com/Pages/ForTeleLovers.htm

Very interesting about the aluminum characteristics. My old P-bass had maybe around .015" thick aluminum sheet (still pretty workably thin) behind the scratchplate, and I believe early strats were similar. I can do without the last few % of top end, it doesn't seem important to me unless to make superfizz compression-assault pop product stuff, and the rounding-off (we're not talking about LOSS, just gentle reduction) of the very highest frequencies is actually very nice to me.

it's just suhr's. the silent single coil and the silent backplate system. it works well. effects the tone the least of all the different method of hum cancelation i have found so far.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

The mod done when you send your guitar to Suhr's factory and what they do to their own guitars is supposedly as good as it gets. The alternative backplate is not as good. People have said it gets about 80% under control but it does enable you to choose from the widest selection of pickups but it is designed for pickups with 8k output but will work with 6kOhms up to 10kOhms with calibration and varying results.* Suhr's website states, "6K Ohms and 8K Ohms." There is a problem with reverse-wound pickup compatibility. You would need to buy another regular wound pickup for the middle position if you wanted to use G&L pups. The plate itself does not fit a G&L as well as a Strat. I know you have to drill different holes when used in a G&L. The plate is larger so it does not fit within any existing recess. Suhr offers a money back guarantee of satisfaction for 4 weeks excluding shipping.

*Some restrictions to consider from the product documentation:

Basic requirements:
1. All single coil pickups need to be same kind (i. e. Alnico rod poles),
2. All pickups need to be wound in the same direction and the same magnetic polarity (if there is a RWRP pickup this pickup needs to be replaced with a regular one)
3. The pickups switching does not include any "in series" or "out of phase" combination.
4. The pickup selector switch, the volume and tone pots, all pickups and the output jack operate normally.

Ilitch Electronics, the actual designer, offers three versions addressing different types of pickups but Suhr appears to only have licensed one of them.

http://www.ilitchelectronics.com/backpl ... system.htm

Also I just read that David Gilmour supposedly has the plate installed on the famous black Strat according to one source. I had not read or heard that anywhere else. The website looks abandoned as most links and images are dead or gone.:

http://www.godlyd.com/default.asp?page=516&product=1875

[Miles Smiles]

2. All pickups need to be wound in the same direction and the same magnetic polarity (if there is a RWRP pickup this pickup needs to be replaced with a regular one)

I wouldn't do that, because that means, you'll have hum in the positions, which were already silent before the modification. Because afterwards you'll have 2 pickups producing hum but only one coil to work against, so the hum canceling will not work.

The back plate thing costs a lot, I don't know why, but it's for sure not because of any expensive material inside.

One of the first Google matches I get with "hum dummy coil stratocaster" is this one and it seems to be basically good: http://www.frettech.com/dummy/index.html. Forget about the pickup volume blender mod, if you have a bass blend at that position.

But I wouldn't do the wiring, as it's done on the above linked page, instead I'd like to have a switch, which can put the dummy coil completely off in one position and in the other it should reverse the polarity of the dummy coil, so it would be usable for the middle pickup too. I'm also not sure about the need of putting the dummy in serial, I would try parallel first.

Switching off in position 2 and 4 could probably be done with the second switch level of the regular 5-way switch, but for automatic reversing polarity of the dummy in position 5, I'd use a Fender Super-Switch.

[louis cyfer]

2. All pickups need to be wound in the same direction and the same magnetic polarity (if there is a RWRP pickup this pickup needs to be replaced with a regular one)

I wouldn't do that, because that means, you'll have hum in the positions, which were already silent before the modification. Because afterwards you'll have 2 pickups producing hum but only one coil to work against, so the hum canceling will not work.

The back plate thing costs a lot, I don't know why, but it's for sure not because of any expensive material inside.

One of the first Google matches I get with "hum dummy coil stratocaster" is this one and it seems to be basically good: http://www.frettech.com/dummy/index.html. Forget about the pickup volume blender mod, if you have a bass blend at that position.

But I wouldn't do the wiring, as it's done on the above linked page, instead I'd like to have a switch, which can put the dummy coil completely off in one position and in the other it should reverse the polarity of the dummy coil, so it would be usable for the middle pickup too. I'm also not sure about the need of putting the dummy in serial, I would try parallel first.

Switching off in position 2 and 4 could probably be done with the second switch level of the regular 5-way switch, but for automatic reversing polarity of the dummy in position 5, I'd use a Fender Super-Switch.

i don't think you understand how the backplate, or the sscs works. you can not have a rwrp pup, but the hum will still cancel in the 2 and 4 positions. a hum dummy coil basically makes the pups humbuckers with all the problems that creates, so at that point might as well put noise cancelling pups in there. the point of the suhr system is the coil is very different that hum cancels from regular dummy pups. it is a very large coil that is flat.

[louis cyfer]

The mod done when you send your guitar to Suhr's factory and what they do to their own guitars is supposedly as good as it gets. The alternative backplate is not as good. People have said it gets about 80% under control but it does enable you to choose from the widest selection of pickups but it is designed for pickups with 8k output but will work with 6kOhms up to 10kOhms with calibration and varying results.* Suhr's website states, "6K Ohms and 8K Ohms." There is a problem with reverse-wound pickup compatibility. You would need to buy another regular wound pickup for the middle position if you wanted to use G&L pups. The plate itself does not fit a G&L as well as a Strat. I know you have to drill different holes when used in a G&L. The plate is larger so it does not fit within any existing recess. Suhr offers a money back guarantee of satisfaction for 4 weeks excluding shipping.

*Some restrictions to consider from the product documentation:

Basic requirements:
1. All single coil pickups need to be same kind (i. e. Alnico rod poles),
2. All pickups need to be wound in the same direction and the same magnetic polarity (if there is a RWRP pickup this pickup needs to be replaced with a regular one)
3. The pickups switching does not include any "in series" or "out of phase" combination.
4. The pickup selector switch, the volume and tone pots, all pickups and the output jack operate normally.

Ilitch Electronics, the actual designer, offers three versions addressing different types of pickups but Suhr appears to only have licensed one of them.

http://www.ilitchelectronics.com/backpl ... system.htm

Also I just read that David Gilmour supposedly has the plate installed on the famous black Strat according to one source. I had not read or heard that anywhere else. The website looks abandoned as most links and images are dead or gone.:

http://www.godlyd.com/default.asp?page=516&product=1875

the other 2 are for pups that suhr doesn't carry. i use a steelpole bridge pup, or a much hotter bridge pup in most my strats. it is a problem with the bpncs system. the backplate system is not that far in results from the one suhr installs, but when you have suhr install it, they do route your guitar under the pickguard. i am not sure that would be desirable. ilitch sells that one too, that is the large coil system. i kinda don't want to route the face of my guitars. the tele pickguard coil system is actually interesting, i am wondering how long before they make a pickguard version for the strat instead of the backplate.

[Miles Smiles]

i don't think you understand how the backplate, or the sscs works. you can not have a rwrp pup, but the hum will still cancel in the 2 and 4 positions.

OK, that's fine, but how do they manage that?

[louis cyfer]

i don't think you understand how the backplate, or the sscs works. you can not have a rwrp pup, but the hum will still cancel in the 2 and 4 positions.

OK, that's fine, but how do they manage that?

i am not sure. but it works. i think when the pups are parallel, the noise is not additive, that is why serial options are not allowed.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

.

From what I gather, the significance of the Ilitch/Suhr coil is the distance from the other pickup coils allowing the frequencies to be adjusted differently. When they are close, as with most or all noiseless single coils, the effect is stronger like having magnets close together. In those cases the side effects, as in loss of tone, are felt stronger. When there is the space created by the size and distance in these systems there is a wider range to play with so you can pick and choose more selectively. There is a board with two pots to dial in the setting that reduces the most hum once the hardware has been installed.

The Ilitch website offers alternative wiring when using a reverse-wound pickup but there are consequences, like hum in the middle position but you get standard hum cancelling in the in-between positions (2 and 4) and the backplate cancelling in positions 1 and 5. Who uses the middle position (3) alone that much anyway? It is tempting to sacrifice that tone position and keep the reverse-wound pup.

Their general conclusion is that even though neither of their two systems equal the quieted hum of middle positions, the noise reduction also addresses environmental sources and the overall quieting achieved is more useful than what is available in a standard arrangement.

http://www.ilitchelectronics.com/links.htm#RWRPmiddle

I do not want to drill new holes in the body of my Legacy in order to use the plate though. They are there to stay. Because the plate is larger the new holes would not be located in the backplate area but would actually be in the body area should you decide to remove the plate after.

.

[Craig]

I thought the name "Ilitch" rang a bell, so I searched on the Forum and found this:

NOISELESS G&L ASAT SPECIAL.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

I thought the name "Ilitch" rang a bell, so I searched on the Forum and found this:

NOISELESS G&L ASAT SPECIAL.

Thanks Craig, I am more willing to send my guitar in for the factory installation with routing than to drill the holes for the backplate. The routing is hidden, the results are better and it is done skillfully by source technicians. To me this is an expensive option with shipping included though.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

In case anyone is ever interested in knowing how the holes for the BPNCS backplate match up on a Legacy......they don't at all. I received a scale pattern of the plate in an email from Ilitch and compared it with the trem cover on my Legacy. The BPNCS plate is wider and longer. The rectangular opening for the strings is offset and not centered top to bottom on the BPNCS plate. From top to bottom the Legacy holes are narrower. The BPNCS plate is disproportionately wider and longer than the G&L trem cover but the holes on the G&L trem cover are spaced further apart from the bridge to the neck edges spanning more distance. The holes on the Legacy trem cover are evenly spaced while the holes on the BPNCS are unevenly spaced and flipped, not mirrored, side with side...........something more like this:

Ignore the little black periods if visible. I needed them to create the spaces between the holes (*)


BPNCS Plate: (the plate is longer but the holes are closer from bridge to neck edges of the plate)

....*...........*.......*....


....*.......*...........*....


G&L Legacy Trem Cover:

...*..........*..........*...

...*..........*..........*...

...and I really don't know why I got carried away and went into such detail when just stating the holes do not line up and the BPNCS plate is longer and wider would have been sufficient............have to lay off the crack....

[louis cyfer]

the offset hole pattern is to match fender.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

.

I am considering using this conductive shielding paint. Does anyone have experience with it? Some say it is priced too high but it is expensive everywhere.

[louis cyfer]

you can get decent results, i like copper better. the paint is even a bigger pain to apply, you really have to prep the finish well to get it to stick, and need many layers.
the factory shielding paint from fender is wildly inconsistent, they only mix the big drum of paint once a day in the morning, so the guitars done in the afternoon get the color, but not much of the actual conductive material, that settles. on my american standard it works pretty well actually.