Body wood cuts

[lshines]

I just got my first G&L ASAT a week ago (classic - BSB), lovin' it! and kinda thinking of a next one (y'all are devils) - possibly a Bluesboy.

My question has to do with the way the wood is cut for the bodies - is it "flat" sawn - or? It seems to be cut in a different orientation than pictures of swamp ash bodies from PRS (see their site) and a few other manufacturers. The PRS bodies show a lot more graining that seems to be orientated with the growth rings parallel to the plane of the face of the body - and I kinda like that look. My G&L is NICE - imho - and I'm really enjoying the feel, the tone, and am REALLY GLAD that I finally ended up with one - a good one at that!

Grain / orientation probably doesn't make one lick of difference in tone the g'tar will produce - as I agree with the "formula" concerning pups/body/neck - but sometime looks/finish/color is the difference that a makes a player stoked, or just indifferent - and even if the guitar is a fabulous-tone player, one may not pick it off the wall at a dealers (good looking girls always....).

So, is it possible to (of course thru an auth. dealer) to ask G&L to produce one with body grain similar to above (I really need to provide a pic, I know) and staining that is similar to what I see on such examples...or would it be insulting to the factory guys/gals to do so - and they would say phooey on this guy - or want to charge so much that I couldn't afford it?

Also, is it possible to order rosewood or cocabolo or another fb wood on a "standard" model (like a BB)? Finally, are any other neck woods (rosewood, for example) available?

Thanks - yea, I'm kinda going crazy here!
Linwood

[lshines]

Here's an example (I hope this pic makes it):

[img]<a%20href="http://s540.photobucket.com/albums/gg33 ... ucket"></a>[/img]

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg33 ... beauty.jpg

[lshines]

[thumb=][/thumb]

this graining is what I'm talking about...I think it's goregous...sorry for the "other mfg's" picture...and I think an ASAT would be fabulous with similar graining.

How would I get G&L to do something similar?

[Craig]

[thumb=][/thumb]

this graining is what I'm talking about...I think it's goregous...sorry for the "other mfg's" picture...and I think an ASAT would be fabulous with similar graining.

How would I get G&L to do something similar?

I sent your questions and a link to the photo to Steve Grom, Director of Manufacturing.

Regarding the fretboard woods: most US models can be ordered with either a Maple, Rosewood or Ebony fretboard.
Here's a link to the G&L US Guitar Options page for your reference.

I'll post a followup, when I hear back from Steve.

BTW, you might also want to check out Tutorial: Posting photos.

Hope this helps.

[lshines]

Thank you Craig!
Linwood

[Craig]

Here's Steve's reply:

Craig,

The Swamp Ash Bodies used on all G&L instruments are what would be considered (in the wood working world) to be "flat sawn". We use the same material, with the same exact grain orientation that Fender has used since the 1950s and G&L has used since the early 1980s

The grain pattern and over cosmetic look of ash varies significantly from one piece to another, compared to alder, basswood, mahogany and other guitar body woods. The same transparent color can look somewhat different on two different pieces of ash depending on the amount of darker grain and the overall mineral content of a specific piece. We like to think these differences give each instrument a unique personality and "look". Due to the variations in grain, it's not possible to try and grain-match one piece to another, especially using a photograph as our reference point.

Regarding fingerboards, our options are rosewood, maple or ebony (addition charge for ebony) with either a 12" or 7.5" radius. You can also choose between medium jumbo or "vintage" (small) frets.

I hope this information is helpful

Best regards,

Steve Grom

[lshines]

Thank you Craig, for going to the trouble for me...I'm not quite sure I exactly understand his explanation. I understand that G&L utilizes the same "cut" as Fender....I was hoping that G&L would consider a different cut approach - if nothing more than to try something different, and staining to bring out the grain....but, I guess I've found out the answer to my question.

Again, thank you!

Linwood

[offplanetfilms]

I thought I remembered seeing a mention on flat sawn bodies on the jjgaguar site, and I just found it >>

http://www.ggjaguar.com/91shsig.htm

This article suggests that G&L bodies are mostly "rift sawn", and shows a rarer "flat sawn" Skyhawk (also claiming that Flat sawn bodies are relatively heavier). This contradicts Steve's answer, but I have no personal expertise on which is really the case?

[louis cyfer]

is a pic of mine swamp ash body. i am rather happy with the grain

[lshines]

[thumb=][/thumb]

this graining is what I'm talking about...I think it's goregous...sorry for the "other mfg's" picture...and I think an ASAT would be fabulous with similar graining.

How would I get G&L to do something similar?

Looking at the body of this one - seems to be a two piece body, bookmatched, stained to bring out the grain - and, as I mentioned, the look intrigues me. It would be so cool as an ASAT, imho, and I would like to try to get one made, even if just a standard ASAT SA body were stained to get that look, tho' it would be nice if the grain was tightly spaced. Imagine this type of look were in all sorts of different color stainings - black, blue, red!
Standard model with new colors!

A somewhat local dealer might be willing to try for me - so we will see what the future brings!
Linwood

[louis cyfer]

[thumb=][/thumb]

this graining is what I'm talking about...I think it's goregous...sorry for the "other mfg's" picture...and I think an ASAT would be fabulous with similar graining.

How would I get G&L to do something similar?

Looking at the body of this one - seems to be a two piece body, bookmatched, stained to bring out the grain - and, as I mentioned, the look intrigues me. It would be so cool as an ASAT, imho, and I would like to try to get one made, even if just a standard ASAT SA body were stained to get that look, tho' it would be nice if the grain was tightly spaced. Imagine this type of look were in all sorts of different color stainings - black, blue, red!
Standard model with new colors!

A somewhat local dealer might be willing to try for me - so we will see what the future brings!
Linwood

i guess some people by guitars for simply visual reasons. to me playability and sound come first. many times i have bought the guitar that didn't look anything like what i wanted, but the sound blew me away. prs's look visually absolutely stunning. but they are better off as museum display objects, as i am yet to find one that played great, and even worse when considering the sound.
i think the cost of wood goes up considerably when buying the most visually desirable pieces. so does the price of production getting those looks. could you get g&l to make custom guitars like that?

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

[thumb=][/thumb]

this graining is what I'm talking about...I think it's goregous...sorry for the "other mfg's" picture...and I think an ASAT would be fabulous with similar graining.

How would I get G&L to do something similar?

Sometimes people mistake recognition for attraction. This can occur when people are not consciously aware that the target of fascination bears a strong resemblance to them. Perhaps the attraction to this particular guitar has something to do with Halloween. It looks like a pumpkin, a squash at the least. I am not saying you look like a pumpkin. It is that time of year. You could be thinking of Halloween and not seeing the connection. ...Just a thought.

BTW, what is "BSB"? Brown sunburst? Blue sunburst? Black sunburst?

[Craig]

BTW, what is "BSB"? Brown sunburst? Blue sunburst? Black sunburst?

"BSB" usually means ButterScotch Blonde.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

Thanks Craig

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

Just spotted this body that would probably appeal to you:



It is the avatar of member "offplanetfilms"

[lshines]

Thank you Michael! Now that's nice grain! I wonder if a person could go to the factory and pick out a body (and neck for that matter)?
Linwood

[lshines]

Here's the original pic I had wanted to post (hoping it makes it in url=http://s540.photobucket.com/albums/gg331/lshines/?action=view&current=513Swampash2010.jpg][/url]

Linwood
swamp ash addiction

[louis cyfer]

[lshines]

Many thanks for doing the picture right, sir!

Ain't that a cool lookin' bunch of swamp ash!

How's about a Bluesboy like that? 'twood be gnarly......

[louis cyfer]

Many thanks for doing the picture right, sir!

Ain't that a cool lookin' bunch of swamp ash!

How's about a Bluesboy like that? 'twood be gnarly......

it is very cool looking grain. i like the grain on my bluesboy though. that's the 513? i just played a dc3 last weekend at gc, and it was the first prs that i have played that sounded good and played ok.

[KenC]

Weighing in here wearing both my guitar nut and woodworker hats...my apologies in advance if I'm covering familiar ground...

I think a big part of the grain pattern on the PRSs shown in this thread is actually a function of the body contours. The "cut" of the wood, e.g., flat-, rift-, or quartersawn, refers to the orientation of the trees growth rings to the face of each individual board. Quatersawn lumber is cut with the wide face of the board perpendicular to the growth rings, so the grain appears straight and tight. If you look at the butt-end of a quartersawn board (or guitar body), the rings will be perpendicular to the front and back of the guitar. Flatsawn lumber is cut with the face of the board parallel to the growth rings, giving the grain an arching "cathedral" pattern where the rings "run out" through the face of the board (since trees are not perfectly straight, and most boards aren't perfectly aligned with the tree trunk). There is usually some relatively tight and straight grain on either side of the arches, due to the radius of the tree trunk the board came from. Louis's Bluesboy is a perfect (and very beautiful) example of this. Riftsawn lumber is somewhere in between the other two cuts, with some arching and generally tighter grain. The distinction between the three cuts is pretty subjective, but in general the butt-end of a riftsawn board will have the rings running diagonally between the board's wide faces. If you ever look at a square table leg - assuming it's not built from several smaller boards glued together, and that the wood has visible grain - you'll notice either (a) two flatsawn and two quartersawn sides, or (b) four riftsawn sides, depending on how that board had been cut.

Back to the non-G&L examples, they both appear to have fully contoured bodies. On flatsawn lumber, these contours can follow the radius of the growth rings and make each one stand out as a distinct line (as on those PRSs), since most of the surface is perpendicular to the growth rings. The species of wood and the tree's growth rate (and thus the distance between growth rings) have a lot to do with how well this works. You'll see it to an extent on body contours on G&Ls or Fenders, but the wood on these guitars wasn't specifically chosen for this pattern like I suspect it was for the PRSs.

I own three G&Ls with transparent finishes. One is a '98 ASAT Classic, with a typically flatsawn ash body in BSB. Another is a first style SB-1 (either an '82 or '83) with a riftsawn maple body. The grain is dead straight, and fairly tight (about 3/16" between growth rings). The third is an ash F-100 (I believe it is VERY early, as the serial number - G-000504 - suggests pre-production). This one is also riftsawn, with dead-straight grain that is slightly tighter than the SB-1's. So, maybe G&L moved from rift- to flatsawn bodies at some point. The grain orientation in the neck pocket of my '86 maple-bodied ASAT was definitely flatsawn.

If I look at the F-100's contours from a 45-degree angle the orientation of the growth rings to the surface causes the grain to form concentric circles. It's a really nice effect, and leads me to staring at the body instead of playing when I pull this guitar out. I will try to get some pictures in good light tomorrow and post them.

It's true that quartersawn lumber tends to be the most expensive cut and flatsawn the least expensive. I believe this is due to a couple of factors. If you run a log through a sawmill and slice it into boards in a single pass, the center board will be quartersawn, a few on either side will be riftsawn, and the rest will be flatsawn. If you go to a home repair center and look at the stacks of construction lumber (mostly yellow pine or fir in the US), almost all of the wider boards will be very flatsawn. It's just quicker and cheaper to produce. To maximize the yield of quartersawn lumber, a log needs to be first cut into quarters and then each quarter broken down into boards by multiple cuts. This is time consuming, limits the width of the boards, and requires very wide and straight logs. Even then only some of the lumber will be quartersawn. Woodworkers tend to buy up quartersawn lumber for furniture making, as the cathedral pattern that looks so good on our guitars looks pretty terrible on large pieces of furniture and the quartersawn grain tends to strengthen the visual lines of furniture. Naturally, this drives the prices up. If you go to a shop that sells furniture-grade lumber, you'll see a dramatic difference in price between flat- and quartersawn stock of the same species.

There are also differences in strength between the various cuts, but those will only be relevant if the lumber is used for construction or other structural purposes. Unless anybody uses their ASAT as scaffolding to paint the house, it shouldn't be an issue at all.

Sorry to ramble. I hope somebody finds this helpful or remotely interesting...

Ken

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

...It's true that flatsawn lumber tends to be the most expensive cut and flatsawn the least expensive...

Not sure how this is supposed to read...........pretty sure there is an error.

After you have a chance to clarify or correct this, if a typo, I will delete my post.

[KenC]

Michael,

Thanks for pointing that out. I meant the exact opposite, and will correct my previous post. It's late, and my brain is turning to mush.

Ken

[KenC]

I guess the opposite would be the exact same thing...I meant quartersawn was the most expensive...I need to go to bed now...

Ken

[lshines]

I can see why you're happy with the grain on THIS one! Wow!
Linwood

is a pic of mine swamp ash body. i am rather happy with the grain

[lshines]

THANKS, KenC for the info! I do understand (and do a bit of furniture sometime myself).

Sometime, we get to lookin' at the other ladies and wish we could play one that looks like that.....

I guess my main purpose is to ask will G&L make such a bodied g'tar? I'm know for sure that they certainly capable; but do I ask too much? I've sent the pic to the local dealer - who sent it to the sales rep. who might or might not pass it on to G&L production....we will see. If they all say yes, then there's a Bluesboy on order. If I hear nothing, or a g.f.y. - well, I'll enjoy my ASAT classic and search elsewhere.

Of course, the grain in a body doesn't REALLY matter - as long as the body is resonant, and mated with the neck, gives out soulful, sustaining TONE!

Linwood

[lshines]

I tried. I sent the pic of the guitar in the above pic to a local G&L dealer - they're great guys - Key Signatures, Richmond, VA - and Charlie there contacted the sales rep, and, he said, then contacted the factory directly. I'm disappointed to say that G&L said they can't do staining like that, or even get close to such grain. I was ready to order a guitar (a Bluesboy model), but darn....heck, even a standard swamp ash body - with just some stain to bring out the grain with the standard honey or bsb finish would be super - but, apparently G&L isn't willing.

So, with that in mind, does one just go for one of the standard finishes? Not that there's anythnig wrong with BSB or Blonde or red or sunburst, etc. But something just a little different would probably make Leo (and customers) smile a little broader when opening the case....

[louis cyfer]

I tried. I sent the pic of the guitar in the above pic to a local G&L dealer - they're great guys - Key Signatures, Richmond, VA - and Charlie there contacted the sales rep, and, he said, then contacted the factory directly. I'm disappointed to say that G&L said they can't do staining like that, or even get close to such grain. I was ready to order a guitar (a Bluesboy model), but darn....heck, even a standard swamp ash body - with just some stain to bring out the grain with the standard honey or bsb finish would be super - but, apparently G&L isn't willing.

So, with that in mind, does one just go for one of the standard finishes? Not that there's anythnig wrong with BSB or Blonde or red or sunburst, etc. But something just a little different would probably make Leo (and customers) smile a little broader when opening the case....

look at the premium finishes. also contact the factory directly, beter to cut out the middleman, so you can be sure they are getting the right info.

[lshines]

thanks louis.
yea, a little dark stain before a honey or BSB finish is all it would take....

Linwood

[louis cyfer]

thanks louis.
yea, a little dark stain before a honey or BSB finish is all it would take....

Linwood

you have to use a gel stain and presand the body at about 320 to 400 so only the grain absorbs it. the other option is to stain, sand most of it off, stain again, have to repeat it many times.

[Craig]

I tried. I sent the pic of the guitar in the above pic to a local G&L dealer - they're great guys - Key Signatures, Richmond, VA - and Charlie there contacted the sales rep, and, he said, then contacted the factory directly. I'm disappointed to say that G&L said they can't do staining like that, or even get close to such grain. I was ready to order a guitar (a Bluesboy model), but darn....heck, even a standard swamp ash body - with just some stain to bring out the grain with the standard honey or bsb finish would be super - but, apparently G&L isn't willing.

So, with that in mind, does one just go for one of the standard finishes? Not that there's anythnig wrong with BSB or Blonde or red or sunburst, etc. But something just a little different would probably make Leo (and customers) smile a little broader when opening the case....

look at the premium finishes. also contact the factory directly, beter to cut out the middleman, so you can be sure they are getting the right info.

I did send a copy of Ishines original post above to Steve Grom, who is the Director of Manufacturing and runs the factory.
he replied back and said that they would not be able to do a request like that. This is the same response he got when going
through the dealer.

While it is disappointing that they will not be able to do such a request, you need to understand that G&L is a production
shop and any special request which might disrupt the factory flow (ie. adding additional sanding/finishing steps) or add
extra cost will likely be denied.

Just look at all of the available finishes which are currently available: G&L USA Finishes. If none of those will do,
then order a Natural Gloss on Swamp Ash and then have the body refinished after you get it.

While it is not what you wanted to hear, you did get an answer from G&L on your request.

[lshines]

Yes, Craig, and thank you. I did go thru a dealer, and I thank you for talking with S.G. As you can tell, I'm just a little disappointed that G&L wouldn't...but, hey, I'll get over it - and still play.

Linwood

[otis66]

If you hold a Louisville Slugger baseball bat with the label facing up you are looking at flatswan wood. If you turn the baseball bat label facing 90 degrees, to the right or left. you are now looking at quartersawn wood.

[Ivo]

If you hold a Louisville Slugger baseball bat with the label facing up you are looking at flatswan wood. If you turn the baseball bat label facing 90 degrees, to the right or left. you are now looking at quartersawn wood.