G&L Changes And The Effect

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:24 am

I really did some thinking on this since Wills post on the headstock/truss rod adjustment nut change. I checked all my G&Ls and they all have a little different cut for the truss rod nut They all look good but are different. The three 2010 G&Ls that I have all have the same size hole and look identical plus the hole is a lot smaller. This would certainly give the neck more strength in that area. There have been saddle changes, the change to metric and others. When I look back, the changes have always been an improvement for the most part. Others, I'm sure are for manufacturing reasons. Changes are not always well received by everyone as we are not creatures of change. Personally I much prefer the gloss neck to satin. A poly gloss neck is as slippery and fast as I would ever want. Gloss nitro is sticky. People have complained about the newer Fender necks because they are so white. The G&L satin neck now almost has an unfinished look. I have a PRS Johnny Highland which has a very white flamed neck in satin. As I use it the back of the neck gets glossier, which is what I like.

What I leading up to is that if Fender changed the labeling on the cardboard box the guitar is packed in, it would be advertised as an improvement. Any change made to a Fender is hyped as the lastest and greatest making you think that what you have has been outdated, an extremely effective marketing ploy. Some of the changes that G&L has recently made are for the better and give us a better quality guitar that we have had. I have had people tell me that a person could do better than a plek machine. I couldn't disagree more. I think that what G&L is guilty of is not announcing manufacturing changes that have been implemented. Would it make a difference to the average buyer? Probably not. It does to us because we are passionate about these guitars. So there are those of us who love the satin neck, others who don't and the thing that I like is that we have the options if we want to order one. The question is - Do you think that G&L should give us more information on changes, here on the forum, or do you think they should hype everything like the other manufactures do. Advertising is a tremendous cost and we all pay. What do you think???? -- Darwin

desertrat07 · Post by **desertrat07** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:01 am

I brought my ASAT Special into the shop for an adjustment the other day and got to talking with the proprietor about G&L's. He said a lot of people bad mouth G&L and claim they're not "real Fenders." His response to this line of thought was that G&L's would be "real Fenders" if Leo hadn't sold the company because he would have continued to make the innovative changes that improved upon his original creations whether he was at Fender, Musicman, G&L, etc.... Seems to me like Fender doesn't want to mess with a proven formula -- a huge marketing budget and decent guitars that are as popular as they are because a lot of rock icons played them 40 years ago (and still do, of course) when they were the best single-coil guitars around. I LOVE that G&L is not afraid to innovate and their relatively low-key marketing seems to me to be a function of the humble nature of the company as much as budget limitations. From finishes, to bridges, to necks, to pickup configurations, they are constantly coming up with new ideas. Some of them I love, some of them I don't, but either way these guitars seem to be improving on the whole and I believe that in 20 or 30 years some of the guitars they are making now will be true classics. I don't mind the lack of advertising or big-name players using G&L guitars - keeps those used prices low and allows them to concentrate on quality rather than hype. That said, I believe it would be great if G&L had a more interactive website with more pictures that more fully explained all of the options from single page that allowed users to "build" custom guitars online - that would be cool and would probably help them sell more guitars.

pico peachy · Post by **pico peachy** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:23 am

my band played a street fair last month. before our sound check, the sound guy (around my age-mid 30s) asked me from some distance away if it was a Tele I was holding. I told him nope, it was an Asat. he replied-oh, a real Fender. some people see it that way, some people don't. I am just glad to be on board. (pun intended)

willross · Post by **willross** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:56 am

I appreciate your position, Darwin. Upon reflection, I realize now that not every G&L will be as my S-500. It's a 13+ year old instrument that I have used on and off over that time. This time around, I don't want to have to put that much time in to season an instrument. I'm willing to pay more for a guitar that is already there. If I were to pick up that ASAT, I would end up sending the neck back to G&L for replacement and I don't want that hassle.

The point is that this is ONE guitar and the first G&L I've ever seen this way. That in and of itself a great accomplishment! Only one in my lifetime! G&L bears great fruit; I just picked a bad one...

As far as marketing goes, as long as the public knows what G&L stands for they'll be OK. A working musician will rarely be disappointed.

Cheers,

Will

Philby · Post by **Philby** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:00 pm

I agree Darwin. I think we all understand that G&L don't have a massive advertising budget, and good instruments advertise themselves anyway. But it would be nice to be kept informed of the incremental changes and improvements that are being made to each model via the G&L website or via this board. As brand enthusiasts, we're the dudes who are most interested in that kinda stuff.

Re. the stark white necks, give that maple 3-5 years and it will be as tanned as a beach babe's bum. My ASAT Special was stark white when new, but 8 years later it has aged to a natural butterscotch. My wife is always reminding me how much she preferred the old 'blonde' look that it had.

sirmyghin · Post by **sirmyghin** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:56 pm

Darwin, Poly gloss is some of the stickiest crap I have ever played one. Period. I have had old nitro necks that were much slicker. The moral of the story on that is you cannot generalize the neck finish to being slick, it is going to depend on your hands, their skin texture, the moistness/how much you sweat and the whole ordeal. I play bare wood necks for a reason.

I like the unfinished white look, that is maple. I am a carpenter though, so I guess I don't expect wood to not be wood. I knew the initial product to the final appearance and how it is all done, similar to how most ebony boards are dyed to be that black, same for really red mahogany, particular of LPs. Artificially colouring the wood to make it appear older is a cheap endeavor in my eyes (as is dying mahogany red for the sake of it, when it is the back of a guitar).

I don't see the need to inform of changes in the case of G&L, as you are not buying direct from G&L, so most people will be going to the store to try one out then orderring (or just buying). I wager there are more direct sales than special orders on a dealer to dealer basis (although the dealer orders the options now).

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:07 pm

Sirmy, I am not trying to generalize about the finish of necks. My point is that G&L gives us the option to order what we like and I happen to like poly gloss and I can assure you that mine are not sticky. My nitro necks are unless they have a very recent coat of wax. The rest is a preference of what we like and I like the looks of the GOT. Again, a personal preference. As Philby pointed out the white maple will age with time to a more vintage tint. The other point I was trying to make is that the people on this board are very tuned into the G&L product and will generally notice a change when looking at a new guitar in a store. The person who is at a dealer who is buying their first G&L will not know any different. In this case Will noticed the difference in the truss rod nut area (very observant by the way) and thought it may be a QC issue. My question is that as a member of this board, would you like to know when changes have been made. For example, my 2010 Legacy has beautiful saddles with less void in the middle. My guess , but I could be wrong, is that they would contribute to sustain because of the additional mass. Fender would advertise the hell out of that saying that it greatly enhanced the sustain. The change was mentioned on the board but I asked the question and I am sure there are more people who have several G&L's who would ask. My final point is that I truly believe that G&L's goal is not to cheapen the product but to truly improve it. I wish that Gibson seemed to have the same philosophy. They have a new artist model every day. There is a reason that I buy G&L's. and one of them is that they have the best quality/looking guitar for the money. The pickups, bridges and even the case they come in is only a bonus. Just consider the case change that they have made in the last couple of years. I am not generalizing and most of this is fact.--Darwin

sirmyghin · Post by **sirmyghin** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:37 pm

darwinohm wrote:Sirmy, I am not trying to generalize about the finish of necks. My point is that G&L gives us the option to order what we like and I happen to like poly gloss and I can assure you that mine are not sticky.

I am willing to wager I would stick to it. Carvin uses a similar poly finish to that on my G&L, and I did have a gloss neck once upon a time. I had to take steel wool to it on several occasions and still had issues. Still debating whether or not to take the G&L and strip the back of the neck. It isn't causing issues those so my motivation is low.

willross · Post by **willross** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:19 am

...just wanted to add that gold hardware would be a nice addition. I've seen a couple G&L's w/ it and Darwin's blond would be able to compete better w/ that Mary Kaye... Go For Gold!

Cheers,

Will

Post by **Craig** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:27 am

willross wrote:...just wanted to add that gold hardware would be a nice addition. I've seen a couple G&L's w/ it and Darwin's blond would be able to compete better w/ that Mary Kaye... Go For Gold!

Cheers,

Will

Gold hardware used to be an option but when the price of gold went way up, the cost
became too prohibitive and was no longer offered.

willross · Post by **willross** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:45 am

Yeah, you mentioned that before. Too bad a third party company couldn't be used on a one-off basis... Yes, very expensive, but for some it could be that little extra that brings their dream guitar to life. I do get the economics of it. Thanks.

Cheers,

Will

sickbutnottired · Post by **sickbutnottired** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:10 am

Darwin and Will,

Thanks for taking the time to post your observations and thoughts on this board. That is a real service, in at least to me, but I think to most of the guitar nuts around here.

I heard this urban legend once that the effect that Keith Richards used on Satisfaction was purchased at Manny's (Sp??) in NYC. As I heard it one Jimi tried it some months prior and said no one will ever buy that pedal...I have no idea if that particular story is true or not. But I have that experience all the time with other players that I know and expect. A guitar that they love, I make a hash of and vice versa.

To answer Darwins specific question on marketing and outreach...

I think this board is great and I appreciate all the issues Craig runs down...I also really appreciated it when Darth 'stopped by' the board and explained the rational behind the new serial number plate. I think I registered my vote on that thread for that 'enhancement', but the outreach really gave me a warm fuzzy...

I say more is better...but I have to be honest. I don't chase down every link that Craig posts.....

I have to get in on the neck discussion. I have both poly and satin necks (from G&L) and they both kill. And they both require break in and CAREFUL maintenance. (for the record I am a greasy sweaty guy).

cheers, jeremy

Muleya · Post by **Muleya** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:17 am

Every time I see or hear about gold hardware, I remember a former coworker who just hated it...said it looked "pimpy"!

Personally, I can take it or leave it...one of my non-G&L gits has gold-plated hardware on it, which is fine, but I'd probably be just as happy with chrome!!

As for keeping us updated as to changes...in some ways, it would be nice for those of us on the forum, I suppose...but at the same time I realize that this is not Craig's job, but a labor of love, and want to respect that.

I do agree that Fender goes overboard and would not want to see G&L doing that. One of the things I love about G&L is that it doesn't pander to the lowest common denominator, nor do they make instruments only for those with deep pockets. They make reasonably affordable instruments whose quality exceeds most, if not all, of it's competitors in the same price range, and even higher price ranges...that's been my experience, anyway!

sirmyghin · Post by **sirmyghin** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:54 am

willross wrote:Yeah, you mentioned that before. Too bad a third party company couldn't be used on a one-off basis... Yes, very expensive, but for some it could be that little extra that brings their dream guitar to life. I do get the economics of it. Thanks.

Cheers,

Will

Did G&L used to do more than the token foiling which looses adhesion and leaves tarnished brass knobs shortly after? (what most people would call the gold 'tarnishing' but infact the gold is now gone).

meowmix · Post by **meowmix** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:37 am

More marketing?
That would be costly. An update to the web would be sufficient but no need to go over-board with flyers and advertisements.
Marketing is expensive, it will only add costs to the guitars.
Craig does a fine job answering our questions.

Neck? Satin is great. Then again, I have super dry hands. Nothing sticks. After 3 hours of practice, my hands are still dry as a bone. What is GOT? I

My 2010 guitar is better built than the 90's version I have. I am all in for these machine exactness upgrades.
G&L should stick to upgrades that are truly upgrades not get into the hype like Fender would.

Gold has x5 the price since 2000, so I can see why it is an issue. But it would look super sweet on the Blonde.

My vote for the next Custom Creation G&L would be the Comanche XII.

Post by **Craig** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:45 pm

sirmyghin wrote:
willross wrote:Yeah, you mentioned that before. Too bad a third party company couldn't be used on a one-off basis... Yes, very expensive, but for some it could be that little extra that brings their dream guitar to life. I do get the economics of it. Thanks.

Cheers,

Will
Did G&L used to do more than the token foiling which looses adhesion and leaves tarnished brass knobs shortly after? (what most people would call the gold 'tarnishing' but infact the gold is now gone).

Yes they did. All the parts were gold plated including the MFD pole pieces.
G&L would bag up the individual pieces for the bridge, screws, control plates, etc. and
send them to the metal plating company they contracted with. When they were finished
and returned, the factory would assemble the bridge and bag the plated parts into a kit to
be used when needed.

Hope this helps.

Michael-GnL-Michael · Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:08 pm

meowmix wrote:...What is GOT?...

Glossy Oiled Tint?

Michael-GnL-Michael · Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:17 pm

desertrat07 wrote:I brought my ASAT Special into the shop for an adjustment the other day and got to talking with the proprietor about G&L's. He said a lot of people bad mouth G&L and claim they're not "real Fenders." His response to this line of thought was that G&L's would be "real Fenders" if Leo hadn't sold the company because he would have continued to make the innovative changes that improved upon his original creations whether he was at Fender, Musicman, G&L, etc.... Seems to me like Fender doesn't want to mess with a proven formula -- a huge marketing budget and decent guitars that are as popular as they are because a lot of rock icons played them 40 years ago (and still do, of course) when they were the best single-coil guitars around. I LOVE that G&L is not afraid to innovate and their relatively low-key marketing seems to me to be a function of the humble nature of the company as much as budget limitations. From finishes, to bridges, to necks, to pickup configurations, they are constantly coming up with new ideas. Some of them I love, some of them I don't, but either way these guitars seem to be improving on the whole and I believe that in 20 or 30 years some of the guitars they are making now will be true classics. I don't mind the lack of advertising or big-name players using G&L guitars - keeps those used prices low and allows them to concentrate on quality rather than hype. That said, I believe it would be great if G&L had a more interactive website with more pictures that more fully explained all of the options from single page that allowed users to "build" custom guitars online - that would be cool and would probably help them sell more guitars.

Using desertrat07's post as a springboard for discussion:

Why do G&Ls take such a hit on resale value?

In principle, one would expect a G&L guitar, or anything in its position as the continued vision of Leo Fender, to be appreciated more especially after the notorious deterioration of Fender post CBS. The history has become fairly common knowledge among people interested in playing electric guitar.

What has not been been done?

What has been done wrong?

Guitars built under Leo's reign have a relatively higher value because people assume Leo had a hand in the quality of the period and his absence guarantees a slip in that department. Is it actually truth of fiction that things slipped after Leo passed away?

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:03 am

Michael, GOT is for Gun Oil Tint. It is a vintage tint.

I will try to answer the value question. The economy has really had an impact on used prices and collectibles as well. Collectibles are usually older, generally early 70s and older. 20 years ago a model A Ford was very valuable. Today the demand is very low for them as todays society doesn't relate to them. The collectible car market has changed dramatically. The collectible vintage guitar market has also changed dramatically as many of the vintage guitars that are being listed are not true vintage guitars. There were only so many made and now they are all over the market. Doesn't make sense does it. G&L has been manufacturing for 30 years and it appears that the early models are quite collectible. I believe that G&L has been conservative in building their company. If they had decided to expand greatly 10 years ago, they may not be around today. They are not a well know name to the average consumer who is looking for a cheap Fender or Gibson. I think that the guitar market is showing signs of problems. All the recent Fender models are Mexican , Japanese and the lowest end American models. That is what they are betting on. Gibson seems to have a new artist model every week. The local GC has gone from a store who had custom shop Fenders and many high end models to rows of Mexican Fenders and low end products. I used to check in there daily for used stuff. I have been there once in the last month. They are marketing to the young crowd. The prices of used G&Ls seem to reflect the recognition of the brand name. The beautiful Blonde Legacy that I recently traded for had been on CL for over 6 months.The guy finally traded to me for a Music Man John Petrucci. He is a pro musician in the TC area. He played the Petrucci and took it with him. He didn't spend hardly any time looking at it as it was perfect. It was no surprise to me when I see it on CL the next morning and it sold in 2 weeks. The G&L tributes are really quality instruments for the money but what do I see on CL everyday? A bunch of Epis which are always called Gibsons, and a bunch of Mexi Stats described as awesome players. I do not understand it either but it is what it is. It is to our advantage when we buy used G&L's as the price is great and they are the best value on the planet. I stopped at a G&L dealer in Alexandria Mn this spring and he did not have a G&L in the store and all he had was a bunch of cheap guitars. He said that he hadn't stocked a G&L in 3 years due to the economy. The Fender dealer in Alex probably doesn't have an American in the store, it is all Mexi and Squier. I think that these are tough times folks and has been for several years and the look ahead isn't very great either. This has been a lot of rambling but I am glad that G&L is still around after all this, still continues to improve on quality and I am on the hunt for another one. Friday according to Darwin.

willross · Post by **willross** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:54 am

Well put, sir. Thanks to G&L for keeping on keeping on...

Cheers,

Will

sickbutnottired · Post by **sickbutnottired** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:26 am

darwinohm wrote: The prices of used G&Ls seem to reflect the recognition of the brand name.

I agree with your whole post, but this is especially right! 95% of guitars sold are bought by people who know less than nothing, most often for their kids. So and so big name plays one like this, so it's good enough for junior!

Resale value of G&L's is lower on the open market, but I have sold a few that didn't quite make it into my permanent set to other players and they have paid a little more than the ebay average for the quality. Good deal for both of us.

But on collect-ability. I don't think G&L's will ever be as collectable as the early Fenders and Gibsons. There was just so much going on in music in the early 50's. Everything so much more cookie cutter these days. Anyway, I am not a collector so I don't know what I care about that...but that's how I feel. But Darwin's model A analogy kinda suggests the opposite, and that makes sense too. How many young players even know who Leo or Les are? And if you don't know anything about lawsuits and broadcasters is a no-caster worth anything?

But I feel like the used guitar market is in shambles right now, and getting worse. Which is weirdly good for me as a scrounger, but it does kinda make one worry!

I love to play, and Will is right and G&L's are and have been amazing.....

yowhatsshakin · Post by **yowhatsshakin** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:25 pm

Great discussion guys! As somebody who has seriously been 'collecting' G&L's and ASAT's in particular, I have always counted myself lucky to be able to buy a great, and I mean a GREAT guitar, for a relative modest amount of money. The comparison that is relevant for me is that if I would have focussed on my favorite set-neck brand (PRS) it would have set me back at least thrice as much. (As a somewhat unrelated side note, the ratio of 1:3 for bolt-on to set-neck is typical for fairly recent models. But that ratio is still better han the about 1:6 ratio for the early Fender and Gibson guitars, respectively, built between '55 and '60).

Again, the operative word is 'GREAT': G&L's are great sounding, have a great finish, and great construction. Gauging the contributors on this board, I believe we are all musicians at heart. And hence we intuit what sounds good. I don't believe that, beyond a few exceptions, we buy our instruments for monetary investment purposes. Sonic investment yes, monetary no. And sickbutnottired's remark that 95% of the guitars are bought by people who know less than nothing is definitely true. And as he observes, it goes both ways. Somebody who want to sell a G&L for lots of money wasn't necessarily interested in actually playing the instrument, because I like to believe that if they would, there would be way less of an incentive to sell it. The 'not collecting for investment' is the hardest part to explain to my wife; that I am not really interested at all to sell any of my instruments because I took the time and effort to find and select great instruments in the first place. I sincerely hope that my G&L's, as well as my other instruments, will be part of my estate for my heirs to figure out what to do with them and how much money to get for it. That will be their problem, not mine, and will indicate no economic hardship forced me to make a different decision along the way. For as long as I live, I just want to enjoy looking at them and foremost play them.

- Jos

Michael-GnL-Michael · Post by **Michael-GnL-Michael** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:18 pm

Maybe a distinction should be made between being collectible and a good product's ability to retain value. The later is what is more significant when thinking of sustaining G&L as a brand. Collectors do so for different reasons and it may not have anything to do with the quality of a product nor anything controllable by a company. When buying we all want something great for less money while at the same time we don't want to spend money only to have our investment immediately lose value.

I realize the economy limits buyers and sellers. What money G&L has had for marketing does not appear to have been invested ideally IMO. People can be taught to think of a product the way you want them to. Relevance can be created. No one has to relate to Leo Fender. That can be taught. Many faces of a brand are from generations long gone. Who was Juan Valdez? If he existed did he actually walk the mountains of Columbia with a burro packing coffee beans? Did he have any role in the company other than as a marketing tool? Does it matter? The image served its purpose. Leo could be presented as an old toy maker in his woodshop or a Steve Jobs of Apple. There are too many custom guitar makers around to be passive. Could G&L have been too quiet about things leaving people to think of G&L as an imitation Fender? Have they been assertive enough about defining their image for the consumer?

.
.
A side note, I have been out of music circles since about 1990. (Darwin's "GC" I guess this means Guitar Center) Guitar Center carrying high-end gear is a surprise. They were the guys undercutting the quality shops in town at the cost of service and expertise. Every month there was a Biggest Sale of the Year sale going on. You learned you could get the sale price year-round. You may have walked out paying the the least money but you felt jacked around. No one there seemed to be able to look you square in the eyes. If you had the money there were preferable experiences to seek elsewhere. They brought musical gear to the masses but they would not have known what to do with the best stuff aside from send a few museum pieces around the chain as a publicity attraction. Apparently times changed but it sounds like they recently returned to being a place for the masses to buy affordable gear.

.
.

Aussie · Post by **Aussie** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:19 am

Michael-GnL-Michael wrote:I realize the economy limits buyers and sellers. What money G&L has had for marketing does not appear to have been invested ideally IMO. People can be taught to think of a product the way you want them to. Relevance can be created. No one has to relate to Leo Fender. That can be taught. Many faces of a brand are from generations long gone. Who was Juan Valdez? If he existed did he actually walk the mountains of Columbia with a burro packing coffee beans? Did he have any role in the company other than as a marketing tool? Does it matter? The image served its purpose. Leo could be presented as an old toy maker in his woodshop or a Steve Jobs of Apple. There are too many custom guitar makers around to be passive. Could G&L have been too quiet about things leaving people to think of G&L as an imitation Fender? Have they been assertive enough about defining their image for the consumer?

Interesting discussion.

Companies will only spend money and energy on marketing if they need to, and generally that will be to either maintain sales against competition or to increase sales if the company is wanting to expand. In this thread a couple of months ago Darth pretty much told us that even in the current economic climate, G&L is operating at capacity. So the current marketing budget and strategy appears to be effectively maintaining sales against the competition. If G&L is close to capacity they would probably need to commit to a stepped investment in more space, more staff, a second or third shift and/or more equipment (maybe even another Plek machine) in order to support increased sales (ie they can't do it at marginal cost) - and they would need to generate enough additional sales to cover that increased investment. The question is whether G&L want to expand either at all - and there are valid reasons why they might not - or at the current time. This was the essence of the G&L question in Friday's Lunch report, although 'cause I was writting it at around midnight WA time it probably could have been better articulated.

G&L is in the business of selling new guitars. In a business sense they would only concern themselves with the ability of their guitars to retain their financial value if they felt that was risking the sale of new guitars. Darth's comments seem to suggest they are doing fine with sales volumes as it is. I suspect also that G&L probably need to exercise caution how they market their Leo Fender connection lest they incur the ire of the giant that could easily swallow them or squeeze them out of business if THEY started to feel irritated or threatened.

cheers, Robbie

Michael-GnL-Michael · Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:34 am

Aussie wrote:...I suspect also that G&L probably need to exercise caution how they market their Leo Fender connection lest they incur the ire of the giant that could easily swallow them or squeeze them out of business if THEY started to feel irritated or threatened.

cheers, Robbie

That Leo was able to part ways with Fender and start a directly competitive business is rare for people in his situation.

Good for G&L to be at capacity. It is a great position to be in with the current state of the economy as long as you are meeting your needs to sustain the business. It is such an overused cliche but it isn't broken so there is no need to fix it on the other hand I would still like to see the perception of G&L elevated. It doesn't necessarily impact volume though it would at least extend the waiting time for instruments if more people sought them.

.
Edited to correct typos and change a couple of words to add clarity.

.

Boogie Bill · Post by **Boogie Bill** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:18 pm

yowhatsshakin wrote:Great discussion guys! As somebody who has seriously been 'collecting' G&L's and ASAT's in particular, I have always counted myself lucky to be able to buy a great, and I mean a GREAT guitar, for a relative modest amount of money. The comparison that is relevant for me is that if I would have focussed on my favorite set-neck brand (PRS) it would have set me back at least thrice as much. (As a somewhat unrelated side note, the ratio of 1:3 for bolt-on to set-neck is typical for fairly recent models. But that ratio is still better han the about 1:6 ratio for the early Fender and Gibson guitars, respectively, built between '55 and '60).

Again, the operative word is 'GREAT': G&L's are great sounding, have a great finish, and great construction. Gauging the contributors on this board, I believe we are all musicians at heart. And hence we intuit what sounds good. I don't believe that, beyond a few exceptions, we buy our instruments for monetary investment purposes. Sonic investment yes, monetary no. And sickbutnottired's remark that 95% of the guitars are bought by people who know less than nothing is definitely true. And as he observes, it goes both ways. Somebody who want to sell a G&L for lots of money wasn't necessarily interested in actually playing the instrument, because I like to believe that if they would, there would be way less of an incentive to sell it. The 'not collecting for investment' is the hardest part to explain to my wife; that I am not really interested at all to sell any of my instruments because I took the time and effort to find and select great instruments in the first place. I sincerely hope that my G&L's, as well as my other instruments, will be part of my estate for my heirs to figure out what to do with them and how much money to get for it. That will be their problem, not mine, and will indicate no economic hardship forced me to make a different decision along the way. For as long as I live, I just want to enjoy looking at them and foremost play them.

- Jos

That's a great post, Jos. It's pretty much how I feel about my collection. I'm not sure how I would define GREAT, but each of my guitars feels "special" to me. They might not be world-shaking to someone else's eyes, but like you say, that's not my problem. I can only hope tht I have bought somewhat wisely. I haven't bought any vintage instruments that are going to explode in value like a 1959 Sunburst LP, but if I could make $200-550 on the diversified 48 instruments I own, then that still going to be a pretty good investment portfolio.

I know my time on the planet is limited, so in the meantime I'm just going to take care of them, enjoy them, play them, perform with them.

Some lucky players in the future are going to have a chance to get some really great guitars. I hope they find the same magic I did.

Bill

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:56 pm

Thanks folks for all your comments. Just this weekend Ginny suggested that I sell a couple of guitars to buy something else I have been looking at. I looked at her in amazement and said that there isn't any that I would want to sell. Yow has hit the nail on the head!! I talk about the guitars as solid investments but none of mine are for sale. Ginny understands that they are a solid commodity but she also understands my passion. I am always looking for rare find. They will all be here when I am laying there looking up at everybody wearing my best suit. I know that especially my daughter would love to have every one of them. I don't have much GAS but I feel a bit of pressure at the moment.

-- Darwin

bluwoodsman · Post by **bluwoodsman** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:04 pm

Seems to me there are multiple ways to get the word out about a product these days.

As someone who recently shopped around a fair amount and talked to all the dealers within hours of me--and a number in far-flung states as well--I think dealers might be part of their advertising strategy. At the least, they sure have a number of them who very energetically sell G and L's on quality and playability. The fellow from Alexandria Darwin mentioned literally gushes about them. I don't know how many he sells, but his explanation to me of having nothing but tributes in the store was that buyers these days are picky--they want the options they want, and would prefer to order one than buy something a bit less than perfect in their eyes off the wall in a store. I heard a version of that same excuse for having very few if any US made legacy's in stock at almost every store within a half day's drive of me.

The other thing that has changed dramatically is how people shop and the availability of info over the web. You need some introduction to a product...but then you can put a lot of info on the web and and people will do their own research. This website and the main site serve that purpose, IMO, and I suspect those in charge are pretty aware of that. I think they could stand to put a bit more detailed info in plain sight on the main site, but you have to admit they sure work hard to direct people here--and there is a LOT of info available on this site!

jonc · Post by **jonc** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:07 pm

darwin, you sure you don't have GAS?

if the back wall in your pic is any indication i'd say you have GAS worthy of Jay's book and then some. BBE-era G&L's are more polished looking than their Leo-era counterparts, and the build and finish quality is second to none. i don't know that other than the commemorative, if any BBE-era G&L's will be worth a boat load, but they're certainly fine instruments. then again, i don't know that the few Leo-era G&L's i have will be worth a boat load as those prices have dropped with everything else. i'd like to think they will increase in value but in any event and like Bill said "Some lucky players in the future are going to have a chance to get some really great guitars. I hope they find the same magic I did."

Michael-GnL-Michael · Post by **Michael-GnL-Michael** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:13 pm

bluwoodsman wrote:...I think they could stand to put a bit more detailed info in plain sight on the main site, but you have to admit they sure work hard to direct people here--and there is a LOT of info available on this site!

How do they do this?

I have seen the link to this forum on the G&L website but what else have they been doing to promote this forum?

thunder100 · Post by **thunder100** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:24 am

Semi off topic and my five cents

I think G&L is doing fine(reading other treads) as they sell their production.They seem to have no plan to sell double soon(different to Fender and Gibson) and are devoted top Leo's motto to make good instruments.

I am very fine with this!!!It made me buy 3 guitars(out of 7 ) and I am happy with each of them(and can compare as I have a Custom Shop Fender too.

The wishes I have to G&L on this topic base line the marketing side on top of above good instruments is

Make us an online custom made-guitar order system including better pictures of colours and better dscription of necks-->I comitt to buy my next 2 guitars there

give us on this homepage or on the G&L homepage a download section with all wiring diagramms(then I dont need to bother Craig so much) as well as manuals

Let some of the builders at G&L write some technical threads here how they build this and that G&L and why they are special

have fun

Roland

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:18 pm

Roland, thank you for your suggestion. There have been a lot of ideas in this thread. It appears that we are very happy with the product but several have mentioned guitar builder software. I just experienced this software when doing research before buying the Taylor Solid Body. They have a solid body builder on their web site and it is very helpful. I was especially impressed with the color accuracy. When you are completed with the build you have a guitar that looks exactly as you speced . A great selling tool but I am sure there are development costs for the software. I think that especially G&L could benefit from this as some of the dealers are not that knowledgeable about the product, especially non stocking dealers. What the Taylor build software did for me is solidify what I really wanted. Thanks for all you input to this thread. This would be a no brainer project for guys like Yow and Craig!!!!-- Darwin

Post by **Craig** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:14 pm

thunder100 wrote:
give us on this homepage or on the G&L homepage a download section with all wiring diagramms(then I dont need to bother Craig so much) as well as manuals

Let some of the builders at G&L write some technical threads here how they build this and that G&L and why they are special

have fun

Roland

Both the G&L main website (Support) and the guitarsbyleo.com website (Gallery Album: Instrument Manuals and Wiring Schematics) have wiring diagrams and manuals (pre-2009). As time permits, John Toner provides me with new and updated wiring diagrams (mostly in the form of a photo diagram). We also have a G&L Tech Tips sub-forum in the G&L Knowledgebase and a number of posts include information provided directly from the Factory. As we get new or updated information, we will post them in the G&L Knowledgebase.

Hope this helps.

thunder100 · Post by **thunder100** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:53 am

Craig

Thanks

as in recent PM I seem to be always on the "not yet available" side-->NO PROBLEM. Recently with the Invader (normal US made) wiring diagramm.

On the homepage the Invaders are shown with a toggle switch while my new guitar(brand new Wild west guitars Riverside) has Push Pull.Not that it matters,but non of this wiring are on either of the homepages.Its not at all a complain as a good(read sensational high quality) guitar is much more important then someone sitting in front of a computer and editing the homepage,but as the opener of this tread correctly states a bit more up to date information whats now new and on sale(toggle or not) would help you(=G&L) to get more customers

Best regards

Roland

CLF60053

thunder100 · Post by **thunder100** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:56 am

Darwin

Thanks

Roland

PS:just I dont want a Taylor with all respect to them and Eric Clapton making their acooustics famous again,I would love to have such a programm from G&L

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:57 am

Rolland, that one is a looker! -- Darwin

thunder100 · Post by **thunder100** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:23 am

Darwin

You are really right as the picture doesnt do it justice.There is Zero flaw and the ash is simply great.Apart this (which is of importance as well) you take it out of the case after a 12 hours flight in the down compartment, no need to tune and play

Roland

Post by **Craig** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:24 pm

thunder100 wrote:
On the homepage the Invaders are shown with a toggle switch while my new guitar(brand new Wild west guitars Riverside) has Push Pull.Not that it matters,but non of this wiring are on either of the homepages.Its not at all a complain as a good(read sensational high quality) guitar is much more important then someone sitting in front of a computer and editing the homepage,but as the opener of this tread correctly states a bit more up to date information whats now new and on sale(toggle or not) would help you(=G&L) to get more customers

I found out a few months ago (and posted this in response to someone elses post) that you can order either the toggle switch or a Push/Pull tone or volume on those models with either the humbucker splitter or the pickup expander switch. So, it's likely that the dealer who ordered it, requested the push/pull.

I will be requesting the series of Invader models picture wiring diagrams and will ask for the Invader model to include pictures for both wirings. Again, this is an "as time permits" type request and John has been quite busy ... so be patient.

Hope this helps.

Post by **Craig** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:34 pm

Regarding the idea of having an instrument builder section on the main G&L website,
I will pass this request on to Dave. You might also go to G&L's facebook page
and mention it there. Dave is known to hang over there and will likely get his attention.

Hope this helps.

thunder100 · Post by **thunder100** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:55 am

Dear Craig

Above reply 1-->nothing urgent-->whenever

Direct above reply-->will tell my daughter-->still refuse to be a member of facebook community

And thanks

Roland

sirmyghin · Post by **sirmyghin** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:08 pm

Roland, out of curiousity how do you get a better description of the necks? A profile, thickness at first and 12th as well as a nut width is pretty much the most you ever get, and more than adequate.

thunder100 · Post by **thunder100** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:53 am

Hmm

I think G&L customers are experienced players.so something like this

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_l1hnjoSwxDg/S ... ofiles.jpg

Plus better pictures of the real neck textures and colours(again no claim Craig) as a real G&L look always far better then any of the G&L homepage pictures(while low level producers have one bright picture and no guitar lives ever up to this)I would asume that i had over the years about 50 G&L's in my hands.

Roland

Homepage

http://www.glguitars.com/instruments/US ... nlarge.asp

Reality-->I am not a professional photographer-->would look even better-->we talk about the neck

sirmyghin · Post by **sirmyghin** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:04 am

I suppose, then again that picture lists a "D" which by todays standards is by far a "C". Seeing as you don't order direct from G&L, you go to a store you can easily get your hands on the neck, so I see that as a bit of a moot point. I know you would like a direct order from G&L, but I don't see that happening based on their business model, nor is it the best idea as it would generate a lot of extra chatter for the factory to deal with. Currently it webs out, so they don't need to deal with everyone, makes things a little more stable.

thunder100 · Post by **thunder100** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:42 pm

Sirmyghin

You are basically right and direct order online is far away.But I do not agree on stabilistaion.There are times with more order and times with less.So there could be the direct order window in the less busy time.

For US you are also right to go and try,overhere in Europe that's the real rare case.As we have anyway a lot of shipping time we can also wait on the custom order.But its just a thought

Roland

sirmyghin · Post by **sirmyghin** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:10 pm

Didn't realize you were in Europe, that does certainly change things. I am in Canada, but at least in my area I chose between 5 dealers based on their attitude (and price, but price wasn't the end all) in the area (about 1.5 hour radius).

otis66 · Post by **otis66** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:53 am

darwinohm wrote:I really did some thinking on this since Wills post on the headstock/truss rod adjustment nut change. I checked all my G&Ls and they all have a little different cut for the truss rod nut They all look good but are different. The three 2010 G&Ls that I have all have the same size hole and look identical plus the hole is a lot smaller. This would certainly give the neck more strength in that area. There have been saddle changes, the change to metric and others. When I look back, the changes have always been an improvement for the most part. Others, I'm sure are for manufacturing reasons. Changes are not always well received by everyone as we are not creatures of change. Personally I much prefer the gloss neck to satin. A poly gloss neck is as slippery and fast as I would ever want. Gloss nitro is sticky. People have complained about the newer Fender necks because they are so white. The G&L satin neck now almost has an unfinished look. I have a PRS Johnny Highland which has a very white flamed neck in satin. As I use it the back of the neck gets glossier, which is what I like.

What I leading up to is that if Fender changed the labeling on the cardboard box the guitar is packed in, it would be advertised as an improvement. Any change made to a Fender is hyped as the lastest and greatest making you think that what you have has been outdated, an extremely effective marketing ploy. Some of the changes that G&L has recently made are for the better and give us a better quality guitar that we have had. I have had people tell me that a person could do better than a plek machine. I couldn't disagree more. I think that what G&L is guilty of is not announcing manufacturing changes that have been implemented. Would it make a difference to the average buyer? Probably not. It does to us because we are passionate about these guitars. So there are those of us who love the satin neck, others who don't and the thing that I like is that we have the options if we want to order one. The question is - Do you think that G&L should give us more information on changes, here on the forum, or do you think they should hype everything like the other manufactures do. Advertising is a tremendous cost and we all pay. What do you think???? -- Darwin

It would be nice for G&L to explain the reason for each change.

jwebsmall · Post by **jwebsmall** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:04 pm

What's the difference between a Invader with coil splitter versus a pickup expander?

I've been playing my new (used 2005) Tribute Invader XL all evening. I absolutely
love this guitar sound wise and the wide neck (1 11/16").

Roland's USA Invader is beautiful!

Post by **Craig** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:46 am

otis66 wrote: It would be nice for G&L to explain the reason for each change.

Actually we have on many of the changes. Here are some:

Current Factory setups for DF vibrato G&L guitars
Comparison of Neck Finishes
How are G&L pickups currently made?
G&L Deluxe Hardshell Tolex Case w/Fitted Interior
What is G&L's Plek machine used for?
Correction on nut material used by G&L
What is the '05 to '06 Bridge and Trem arm differences?
Hey G&L: it's time to update the ASAT input jack

This is just some recent posts, so browse or search on the Let's talk G&L Products sub-forum and G&L Knowledgebase forum
for additional postings.

And when I hear about any changes and updates, I will post about them. Just remember that I am not an employee and don't
always get this information when changes or updates are made. I also do not live near the G&L factory or BBE Sounds offices.
I am located in Northern California (weekdays) and Central California (most weekends).

Hope this helps.

Post by **Craig** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:06 am

jwebsmall wrote:What's the difference between a Invader with coil splitter versus a pickup expander?

See What is the expander switch used on many of the models?

Hope this helps.

darwinohm · Post by **darwinohm** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:24 am

Thanks Craig, for weighing in on this. As with many things that have been posted, a new buyer would not know what to look for in terms of subject. I think the changes and improvements are worthy of a separate heading like the Rarebirds and would not only be interesting to us familiar with G&L but would be great information for someone researching a used or potentially new G&L. Thanks-- Darwin