The Hendrix/SRV Tone in a Legacy

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

Hello all,

I suspect that people have achieved the tone similar to that of Hendrix (cleaner styles) and Stevie Ray Vaughn with the stock Legacy pickups.

Personally, I believe that tone is the most versatile that a Strat style guitar can have. With it you can play a wide range of styles.

I don't think it is out of reach with the correct selection in amp especially if you keep the overdrive lower. Crossing a threshold some pickups reveal their limitations. But I am researching routes without an amp. I must keep the environment around me silent so the audio must be monitored using headphones. This imposes several limitations on options. Digital amp modeling is an area to explore further however I have noticed undesirable characteristics that seem typical to the format, like a different behavior and response with picking and working the fretboard aside from a different sound characteristic (there is typically too much of a fuzz rather than overdrive sound once you are in the vicinity of over-driving the amp). Ideally I would achieve the desired tone with a responsiveness that supports expressive playing and does not hinder it.

I have observed some of the product video demos and I am certain that the musicians could make anything look good if the sound was ignored. That is, the feel of the instrument can be masked by a fluent performance.

Regarding the stock Legacy pickups, crossing the threshold with overdrive has not produced a result I like with the components I have tried thus far.

If I have to replace the pickups I will. I am not ruling this out. If it is not required it is an unnecessary expense.

EDIT: I did not actually write a question: Does anyone have suggestions or recommendations along the lines of what I have outlined?

Thanks

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

Okay, no bites. How about this:

Has anyone been able to dial in that distinct tone using any amp with a stock Legacy?







.

[yowhatsshakin]

Hi Michael,

There have been many discussions about the PTB tone control system on this forum. And you can find a wealth of information in the Knowledgebase on this forum. Here are a couple of links to get your started:
Legacy Tone Control Circuit
Re: Is my PTB circuit faulty?

Especially at the and of the seconds thread, you'll read that the PTB controls are not necessarily intuitive but make perfect sense after you've studied it a bit.

Hope this helps,

- Jos

[CGT]

Before you go swapping pickups, consider some of the following.

I know I'm beating a dead horse here but if you're looking at reproducing that tone in a headphone environment, check out IK Multimedia's Amplitube 3. The freebie version will give you credible non-licensed Fender Twin Reverb and Marshall JMC 8000 simulations (you can also buy the licensed versions in their in-software app store) as well as a half-dozen effects simulations.


The other thing you need to research is how Hendrix and SRV's guitars were set up.

SRV used heavy strings tuned down half a step. You can read about his setup in detail here:

http://www.tangledupinblues.com/setup.html

Here's a link to a less detailed article about Hendrix's setup based on one of his surviving guitars.

Oh yeah, and beating dead horse part deux: IK also makes a Hendrix version of the Amplitube that comes loaded with simulations of a lot of the gear he used.

Hopes this helps.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

Well first and foremost I want to thank "yowhatsshakin" and "CGT" for being kind enough to offer a response.

I did not think of doing a search. There are not many people online at the same time here. Not saying it actually is but somehow this translates a sense that this forum is empty of people and content to me. I would have thought of doing a search before posting the question on other forums.

Anyway, I have read a lot about these tones elsewhere, just not as it applies to the G&L Legacy specifically.

Again, thanks for the links and suggestions. I have the free trial of Amplitube and am going to try the Fender module.

Thanks again and sorry for bringing the dead horse up and my description here is not meant to offend anyone. It is just how it feels here and a likely reason I did not consider doing the search before posting.

Thank you and Thank you

[CGT]

Well first and foremost I want to thank "yowhatsshakin" and "CGT" for being kind enough to offer a response.

.....
Thanks again and sorry for bringing the dead horse up and my description here is not meant to offend anyone. It is just how it feels here and a likely reason I did not consider doing the search before posting.

Thank you and Thank you

You're welcome. And it wasn't you who was beating the dead horse. I was referring to the fact that I've been recommending amplitube of late to people who want to experiment with various guitar sounds and who need to do so with headphones.

I just realized that I didn't actually post the link to the Hendrix article. Here it is:

http://www.univibes.com/BlackStrat.html

[Boogie Bill]

There is no reason why you can't get Hendrix or SRV tone out of a Legacy. The Legacy's alnico pickups are close to the pickups they used, though there is a difference between the Fender pickups of the early '60s that SRV used in his vintage guitars, vs. the LATE '60s pickups Jimi used in the new guitars he was buying.

Another guy that gets that kind of tone is Henry Garza of Los Lonely Boys, and he uses MIM Strats. He used the neck pickup a lot, and gets a pushed tone from his Twin Reverbs.

I think the big difference is amps. There's not a modeling amp in the world that can emulate the tone of a 100-watt Marshall Plexi full-stack turned on TEN. Headphones and digital programs aren't going to push the kind of air you need to get the interaction with the guitar.

Likewise, Stevie Ray often recorded with a room full of amps, all turned on ten, and in an isolated room. He used Marshalls, Fenders and Dumbles. I don't think you can get a $100 computer program to sound like a live Dumble.

When a tube amp is cranked, the power tube sections create a fullness and richness no solid-state device can recreate. Hammer the front end of the amp with a hot output from downtuned strings (that the amps were not designed for) and you start getting close to that tone. Add a Tubescreamer or a Fuzz-Face to hammer the front end, and the preamp tubes start creating their own kind of distortion.

Personally, I don't like SS ODs and distortions, because the distortion they produce sounds unnatural to me. When you hit a note that's amplified by a tube, there is a certain sequence of events--attack, distortion, compression, release, decay, etc.--and the Tubescreamer gets these in the wrong order.

I use Mesa amps. The Mesas have a cascading preamp that create thick, rich, natural-sounding distortion. But even with the Mesa's preamp Gains and Master Volume, they won't sound like cranked, vintage, non-master volume amps.

I think if you have a detailed understanding of SRV's and Jimi's techniques, and reasonably close gear and a whole boatload of talent, you can capture their tone. I think the pickups in the Legacy are probably an insignificant factor in that equation.

Personally, I don't sound like either of them, though I can and do come close on many occasions. My tone is closer to Eric Clapton's, Knopfler, and Robert Cray's--at least, that's what I try for. Most days, I just sound like me.

And I'm really happy with that!

Bill

[CGT]

Bill, I can't step into a room full of amps and push that kind of air even with ear plugs on, I will be in pain after a few minutes and deaf within an hour. As for the notion that the digital sims can't pull it off, I'll defer to the recording engineer/session player who recommended them to me, saying that we was completely blown away with what the new generation of sims are able to do and how he is able to drive them.

I've been able to coax sounds out of Amplitube that I never thought possible on digital gear and I can do it without having to evacuate a ten mile radius because things get too loud. As for solid state amps, I've been able to use them to coax amazing sounds out of the Legacy but other guitars don't sound so good. I could be entirely wrong about this but I think that tube amps add colour to the tone of a guitar far more than SS amps and can make even a piece of junk sound good. In my experience, solid state amps are a lot less forgiving.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

Boogie Bill,

From what I can tell (I will describe what I am basing this on) this tone is not as difficult to get as many people say. There are quite a few pickups that won't get in the way of it. I asked about the stock Legacy because I just don't know enough about them. There are not many examples to listen to. I have yet to pull together an amp solution for my situation and have not played my own Legacy that much.

We all will probably agree that the pros using that tone each have something unique of their own in the mix. With Hendrix and SRV, Hendrix was grubby and crude at times while SRV was more refined yet he would often punch the tone. Hendrix was experimental and his tone had a wider range of characteristics while SRV pursued one dimension of the Hendrix tone and took it to an extreme level.

A lot of what is talked about as vital to this tone can be refuted and is really just the idiosyncratic preference of the musician. Take SRV's heavy gauged strings, for instance. They are cited as a contributing factor. In the above link provided by CGT that describes the condition of Jimmy Hendix's favorite guitar at the time of his death it states that it was strung with common 9's. With due respect to everyone, there are a lot of kids getting that tone in YouTube videos. It can't be that difficult when there are so many people achieving it without all of the pieces in the puzzle which are out of reach for most, like playing through a room full of amps.

Sometimes it helps to think about what would prevent you from achieving a certain tone when determining what enables the tone. The amp definitely is a factor. Using single coils that sound like single coils is a factor. Granted there are going to be elements in the equipment that can be tweaked to bring out different things once you are within the ballpark of that tone. As mentioned heavy gauge strings will not make or break the tone but it will have an effect on the tone in more than one context. Getting in the ballpark is most important of course.


CGT,

The tone can be amazing, especially the cleaner tones, using Amplitube however one aspect could be difficult to reconcile. That is the feel while playing. Attack and fretboard action is psychological to a great extent in playing electric guitar. This manipulation sets up a familiar aural response you come to expect. Playing the guitar shares characteristics with chewing. There is a lot of this chewing taking place between fingers and strings. The effects of this intimate activity sets each guitarist apart from others. This is one area where digital appears to have been missing the boat. I am out of practice and my new G&L Legacy is quite different than the Les Paul Custom I played years ago. Though I have read about the feel of amp modeling software I have only limited experience with Amplitube and my impression of the feel is not easily distinguished from the condition I am in as a player. What is your impression of playing through Amplitube? Do you get the necessary response from the guitar in every important aspect when using Amplitube?

I have been researching the Digidesign Eleven rack. They claim it achieves the feel of playing through an actual amp with this specific aspect in mind. So far I like that idea but I have not liked several things about the sound samples I have heard from the Eleven rack.

[Michael-GnL-Michael]

My tone is closer to Eric Clapton's, Knopfler, and Robert Cray's...

It might be interesting to come up with a brief but precise set of questions for a survey that ultimately shows what people are talking about when they speak of tone and one tone compared to another.

A set vocabulary which everyone agreed upon could be helpful at times also.

Maybe we could create inks to MP3 examples of tone characteristics. (i.e. "quack" "crunch" "wet" "drippy")

When I think of these three musicians I do not perceive them as sharing the same tone. The Cray tone is clear and hollow IMO. Knopfler uses a clean but solid toneless-tone for a song like We Are The Sultans and an overdrive tone for a song like Money For Nothing. Neither of these tones sound anything like Cray or Clapton to me. Clapton has a stock Strat tone to me. It is a sound that does not seem to have anything special about it. It is Clapton's playing that prevents his guitar from sounding like, say, the guys in Lynyrd Skynyrd or The Eagles who also have standard Strat tones though Joe Walsh often uses some form of modulator as well as pushing overdrive for crunch.

I described the three tones in detail like this because it is interesting to me that you see more in common between them than I do. I could not say a single tone sounded like these three.

[panchito]

Hi,
I´d propose you to look for live recordings of the artists you mention and to compare their live tone with the studio tone. Maybe that could help you to find out how close to the desired tone could you get with your gear.

[Lazer]

I can get a fairly decent SRV tone using my mahogany S500 (any posiition but bridge) through
any fender voiced amp with a tiny bit of chorus picking real hard. I think one of the keys here
is picking hard. It's a workout so I can not do it for long without a brake.

Cheers
L-zr