Lunch report: Tuesday 24th May 2011

[Dr B]

Lunch:
Although my search for the perfect sandwich continues (and it came close yesterday)...today it’s a chicken and bacon pasta salad washed down with a rather dreary cup of coffee and a biscuit to ‘dunk’ in my coffee (I am also in search of the best biscuits for ‘dunking’ into tea / coffee). The more observant amongst you will notice the ‘bacon’ theme again today. This may well be something to watch for over the coming reports.....as well as additional biscuit research...I hate it when the biscuit falls into the drink. Apologies for those of you who find dunking disgusting – but I’m out and proud about this.....

G&L topic:
OK – a bit of fun today. So let us assume you have a “Hot-tub time machine” and you can go back in time to meet any artist you want and convince them of the merits of your G&L (plus associated bits of kit) instead of what they did use at the time to record or perform the music. So, perhaps you could convince Jimmy Page that an Asat might be better for him than his Tele….(for example) or that Clapton should use a Legacy. Firstly, who would you travel to? Secondly, for what track or album? Thirdly, what kit would you recommend (what G&L guitar and why)? Finally, how would convince him / her your G&L might be something they should consider? Would this be an argument based on tone, sustain, range of tone, etc? Would you suggest a G&L guitar or an effects pedal?

On a slightly related note - I was always confused as to why Clapton played a strat with a fixed bridge. Why not play a tele? It must be because he thinks he can get better tone from his strat or even that it’s just because on stage a strat might look sexier to him than the bulkier Asat / tele shape. Who knows......

(PS - I would punch Hendrix in the face if he set fire to a legacy..... )


nonG&L topic:
I was in a large mainstream guitar shop the other day (how many stories begin with that line....). No G&L here, just the main brands and you can all imagine what they were. Anyway, I was watching a couple of parents walking around with their young son. He would have been around 10 years old I guess. Of course, he wanted a F***er Stratocaster and the parents were a bit lost in the many options hanging on the wall. Price tags were steering where they looked (and understandably so). The young shop assistant came over and immediately steered them to the USA (£800 / $1100) range of guitars. I was disgusted. The young boy was obviously starting out – but to my mind, that was excessive and irresponsible for a shop assistant to be recommended an instrument like that in front of the child. He seemed to be manipulating the parent’s lack of knowledge and their well-placed emotions to buy what their child wanted. The chap walked off for a while and I did something I would not normally have done. I walked over to them and gave them a bit of advice (including cheaper alternatives in the store as well as the G&L option and other non-mainstream brands that would serve the young boy well). I think they ended up going for a Squire or something. Nothing wrong with that for his first guitar.

There are two points here. One is, what advice would you give to kids and their parents regarding buying an instrument. Cheap and cheerful (as the kid may only play for 10mins and never touch it again) or expensive? My personal take is cheap is not always good as crappy tuners can turn while string bending (i’ve seen this), action can be uneven, pickups can be muddy, build quality can be so poor overall that it makes the guitar difficult to live with and enjoy and may put the kid off playing altogether or at least for a while. Not good. However, $1000 for a beginner – that’s excessive. It might sound obvious, but my generic advice is always to go as expensive as you can as generally speaking it does relate to quality. What’s your take on this? What advice would you give? Do you have kids of your own and if so, have you advised them on what’s best for their needs? Did they listen? Have you advise others and did that advice pay off for them?

The second point is – have you had a similar experience to me – where you have witnessed bad advice being given to vulnerable parents in guitar shops? Do you know of shops in your area that do this systematically and are well known for it and avoided by those in the know (don’t mention the shops....just tell us your experience). Why is it that many in the large and commercial guitar shops, actually seem more interested in the commission than quality advice – as you can get both. There were plenty of good options in that store for that child.

[Ahryn]

mmmm Bacon theme.... when it comes to dipping stuff in coffee I am willing to try anything once, such as cheese.

If I had a hot tub time machine I would go to 1975 and convince Joe Strummer the benefits of owning an ASAT or just sell it to him for less then a certain sunburst telecaster...

The best advice I could possibly give to a new player looking for there first instrument is spend as much as you are willing and never settle. too many people quit playing because they bought a cheap learner, and always compare guitars to there more expensive counterparts. it just feels better to know the guitar you bought felt and sounded like a counterpart worth three times its price.

[sirmyghin]

Liking the bacon, not that I eat it anymore, can't stomach the grease since I cut all that from life. I just finished a pulled pork sandwich though.

See a thousand on a beginner is a bit of a gamble, if they stick with it, money invested and well spent, if not ,money lost. Best beginner guitar I can think of, A carvin bolt kit. You have to finish it yourself but it is 400$ or so, and they have done the fretwork to their standards and the whole lot. You really can't beat it for a strat style guitar. No need to censor Fender though, this place isn't going to crack down on you for saying it. There are good instruments from every company on the market, no doubt a G&L schools a fender, or a Carvin will school a gibson of similar price, but lately, especially with the limitted USA runs between 1-2k they are even pulling up their socks.

For beginners I recommend a used Mexi fender usually. They are pretty solid, good fretwork, acceptable electronics, and you can get them used for 250-300$ if you look around. I had to do a stint on a J-bass while mine was dying and my new one was being built and it served me pretty well. I don't hang around guitar shops much though, my guitars typically aren't from a shop at all, the only pieces I have from a shop are my ASAT special and my Mesa Mark V (which I went to pick up then promptly left). The ASAT I just corresponded with the dealer a lot then showed up when I wanted to order it, I had played his ASATs before though.

Not touching the first one, too subjective, and I think that brand loyalty is misplaced (especially as they are not loyal back, typically). Different necks/pickups/shapes and sizes for different techniques, and styles. I can see Mesa,Carvin,G&L,Fender and Avatar if I just glance to my left. Most of those guys at the stage in the game when G&L comes along, are probably at least aware of it, and quite happy with what they have.

[zapcosongs]

My advice to parents would be to buy a quality USED instrument (after doing the necessary research). Often, the price will be less than a poor new instrument. And because it has already depreciated from new, it can be sold without losing money if Junior turns out not to be interested. - ed

[CGT]

I haven't had lunch yet, so nothing to report there.

Time Machine: In all seriousness, I wouldn't want to travel back and offer a great player a G&L for fear of changing the past.

The biggest rip-off is mall music store/schools that offer overpriced poor quality off-brand instruments to vlu I see is parents who buy their children overpriced poor quality off-brand instruments at ridiculous prices. I love garage sales and one of the constants I see is no-name Chinese laminate acoustic guitars being offered at $300.00 because mum and dad paid $400 to a mall music school for a kit that included a gig bag, tuner, strings, a music stand and a strap. (What a value!)

In terms of music store sales reps, I have to wonder: If you were dealing with a whiney brat who wants a Clapton Strat and with parents who are too lazy to discipline him/her, why would you bother? Chances are you would get shot down and insulted anyway for attacking their precious spawn. (I've had this happen with parents when I was selling computers and even though I knew they were paying three times as much as they had to, I also knew from experience that contradicting them would result in the manager being called out to discipline me for disrespect, or some other such slight.)

On the other hand, I have to question the approach of the pair you advised in the nameless guitar store: If the kid wanted a guitar, they should have done research first, asked around, etc. Long gone are the days when the only recourse for information one had was an in-store sales rep. If their kid wants an instrument, look into it first. People spend so much time obsessing over every other detail of parenting/living these days, so why not delve into guitars first, instead of going in blind, especially given the range of choices.

If I were to give advice to parents, it would be the following:

Electric: if the kid absolutely wants a Fender, the Squire Custom Vibe line seems to be a good economic choice (good enough that one of the best guitar shops in my town stocks them along with all the USA models, by-passing Mexi-Strats completely). If not, I would recommend the Yamaha Pacifica 112J (which is on par with Mexi-Strats in every way), or a Godin. If the kid wanted an LP style guitar I would recommend a Godin or one of the Chinese PRSs (they go for less here than the Epiphones and seem to be better built).

Acoustic: Any of the solid-topped Godins (Norman or Seagull)

If any of the above can be purchased secondhand, even better.

Amplification: Amplitude 3 Free with a decent set of headphones to keep noise down and to allow the kid to experiment with different types of amplification.

In all cases I would insist on a proper setup. Even the best guitars can be dogs if not properly set up, as I discovered when I tried a 30th Anniversary Legacy at a chichi music boutique that had no in-house technician.

[Brock]

For beginners, I'd probably recommend getting a cheap new electric. I haven't played many in recent years and don't know what I'd recommend, but cheap electrics as a whole are far superior to the ones 20 years ago.

On the acoustic end, the Godins (Seagull, S&P, etc.) are winners in my book.

-Brock

[bassman]

If I went back in time to 1970 could the G&L make the trip? It wasn't invented then?
I don't know. You might set off something unintended and change the world for the worse. LOL

I worked as a manager of a local music store chain in the 80s and I can tell you most beginners should rent a guitar along with lessons first.

If the kid's interest doesn't hold up, then the parents are just out the cost of a rental and the cost of lessons.

I know we all know how to buy a Mexi strat or a G&L Tribute and turn around and sell it, but most parents are clueless about guitars and they are better served by a rental.

Most kids know within 3 weeks if playing guitar is for them. Most guitar students only last 6 weeks. Believe me I know this first hand.
I have seen many parents try to force an instrument on a child.
That never works and will end up costing them more than a Clapton Strat!
I remember a sad kid taking drum lessons who said what he really wanted to play was piano!

I like the Squire Vibe basses and guitars as well as G&L Tributes. That is what I would recommend to a parent of a pre-teen who is just learning to play electric but has already made a commitment to learn guitar.

There are lots of ways to get started. I agree with the setup and I would rec. a good music based guitar teacher for private lessons. That will give a beginner the best start possible.

[Boogie Bill]

Well, I wouldn't have to go very far back in time. I think two of the hottest guitarists today should be using G&Ls. I'd like to see Henry Garza of Los Lonely Boys in a G&L Rustic Legacy in 3CSB, of course. And let's get Andy Timmons to dump his Ibanez. I'd fit Andy with four guitars. They would be a stock Legacy HB with PTB and DF Vibrato; a stock Legacy Special with the DF Vibrato and PTB; a second stock Legacy Special modified with Andy's choice of whatever bridge humbucker he'd like; and finally an Invader with a Floyd Rose, bridge humbucker of choice and two Gotoh Blades. I think when they saw the build quality and the options available to them, they'd happily make the move to G&L.

And then I'd jump back again in time and try to put one of the first Legacy Specials in the hands of Carlos Santana, circa 1992. I think that would have been a real eye-opener for him.

And I don't think I would have to do a lot of salesmanship on any of them. The guitars speak for themselves.


================================

Yes, I've been in similar situations many times in a guitar store.

I think also think it is a mistake to buy a kid a very expensive instrument right off the bat. I have a few rules about kids and music. THE Number ONE rule, is that school comes first. They have to buckle down and keep those grades up. I tell them that learning to play an instrument is a privilege, not a right; and they have to earn it. Chores have to be done. They have to show committment to learning; they have to practice and they have to stick with it--for a year, at least. Parents, prepare to do battle. You will have to push. Don't let the kids give up when it starts getting difficult. It IS worth it to have a life-long skill. And when they are done with the first instrument, they can earn and be rewarded with a better instrument.

A young child can present a very different set of challenges than the teenager that wants to learn. Finding a suitable instrument is a major problem. For small kids, I often suggest starting out on a ukelele, or a baritone uke. Some of the companies are now manufacturing smaller guitars for kids, like Fender's Mini-Strat. Daisy Rock has some pretty good instruments that they market for girls, but they have some that will appeal to boys, too. A travel guitar can be a hip thing for a small child. Several companies have smaller acoustic instruments. The Baby Taylor (I had one for a while) and Martin Backpacker are very high quality instruments, but there are also offerings from Yamaha, Takamine and Ibanez.

One of the biggest misconceptions of parents is that they can just go to a pawn shop and get a $25 guitar. Or a $50, or $75 guitar. Sorry, but they don't exist anymore, and they haven't for a long time. I think about $150 is about the minimum cost for a budget guitar these days. And I definitely encourage that the instrument be set-up for best tone and playability. That extra $50-$75 can make a world of difference.

I do like Squires, and I'm thinking about picking up a Squire Vibe Tele. I actually won a Squire Affinity Strat in a contest, and gave it to my adult nephew. He likes it, still uses it. I could have used it on a gig, and it certainly would provide a good platform for upgrades. And the one I got didn't need much setup at all.

It's a tough job being a parent. I was very lucky that my mother recognized that I had some musical talent and was willing to make the sacrifices for me that helped me become a musician. I am eternally grateful and so, so blessed.

Bill

[Philby]

Hi Dr. B. You absolutely NEED to find some Tim Tam biscuits for dunking in tea/coffee. The middle dissolves in your mouth once it's been warmed up by a hot drink. Mmmmm gooey.



There are so many good entry level electric guitars around these days that there is no excuse for having to fork out $1200 for a USA strat. I agree with Boogie Bill, the current Squier Classic Vibe strats and teles are really well put together. So are G&L Tributes and the Squier Affinity models. I nearly bought a Squier Classic Vibe Duo Sonic for my son a few weeks back. It is a shorter scale guitar that is ideal for small hands, and it was light as a feather. It also had a stock aluminium pickguard and blow me down if it didn't make the single coil pickups completely hum free.

I've never heard a music store sales guy try to oversell a high end guitar to a beginner. But I have heard lots of parents trying to buy little Johnny the most expensive guitar in the shop when little Johnny just wants a black Epiphone LP like his mates. I often complain about my local big chain music store but, to their credit, I've never heard them recommend a super expensive guitar to a beginner. In fact they usually tell experienced players to forget the custom shop strat/tele and go try a Squier Classic Vibe for a big surprise.

[blargfromouterspace]

Good morning Dr. Bacon. I'm having a bacon sandwich with tomato, mayo and hot sauce, with a few coffees. Breakfast of champions.

I'd recommend the Tribute series G&L, Danelectro or MIM Fender and a Vox pathfinder to a beginner. Used ones. You could start of with a professional quality instrument - in the words of a salesmen I once heard "it's like learning to drive in a Porsche". That was in a shop in one of the richest suburbs of Australia where there are obviously a lot of spoilt rich kids.

I'd go back and give James Burton a sparkly ASAT Classic for when he records 'Polk Salad Annie' with Elvis.


Phil - I think they have a version (albeit inferior) of the Tim Tam in the UK called a Penguin. Maybe not the best dunker if you don't like it when some of the biscuit gets left behind as the chocolate often melts into the drink. Totally worth it though!

[Philby]

Phil - I think they have a version (albeit inferior) of the Tim Tam in the UK called a Penguin. Maybe not the best dunker if you don't like it when some of the biscuit gets left behind as the chocolate often melts into the drink. Totally worth it though!

I expected big things from the English Biscuit when I was in the UK but was sadly disappointed. No wonder Dr. B is having such a hard time. You could always dip some bacon in yer coffee Dr. B . Or try Dutch or Italian or German biscuits. Those guys know how to bake a biscuit!

Dunking Tim Tams without leaving crumbs behind is an art. IMO many quick dunks work better than one long dunk. Once you've over-dunked there's no going back.

[darwinohm]

Doc, You are really going for the good sandwich. I was on a roll again today. Ginny was not around to see what I was doing so I had a turkey on pumpernickle, with cheese , pickles and horseradish mustard. Good thing I don't do the same with guitars or I would have a room full of the same thing, in the same color, all Red!

If I could persuade an artist I would I would have a flamed ASAT Classic S ready to hand to James Burton. I think that he could make it sing.

Why does Clapton use a Strat with the trem blocked. I like the Strat/Legacy body and if you have used them they are extremely well balanced and comfortable. They fit against your body with no sharp edges anywhere. I also prefer the Teles that I have that have the tapered back as they are so much more comfortable and reduce the weight a bit. The same is true for the "belly" cut on the ASAT. A person generally likes what they are use to but, if you were to try several styles of guitars, the Legacy/Strat body is very comfortable.

If I were to buy a guitar for a beginner I would do the shopping and if it were an acoustic, it would be a used Seagull. They are an incredible buy used. If it were and electric, it would be a T-Type, chambered such as an ASAT Tribute. They can also be found used at an incredible price. The worst thing you can do is start on a poorly built cheap guitar. They will have sore fingers and will quit playing. A used Seagul or Tribute can be resold if the child doesn't have interest. My granddaughters have Baby Taytors and a 3/4 sized strat. I have the action set very low and they are playing them and getting better. They actually play some of my electrics when they are visiting. They are 8 and almost 11. If the action is low they will generally keep playing if they are interested, otherwise if they have sore fingers all the time, they will quickly tire of the whole thing.

Doc, Wednesday coming tomorrow, keep it layin' it on us!!!!!-- Darwin

[zapcosongs]

Phil - I think they have a version (albeit inferior) of the Tim Tam in the UK called a Penguin. Maybe not the best dunker if you don't like it when some of the biscuit gets left behind as the chocolate often melts into the drink. Totally worth it though!

I expected big things from the English Biscuit when I was in the UK but was sadly disappointed. No wonder Dr. B is having such a hard time. You could always dip some bacon in yer coffee Dr. B . Or try Dutch or Italian or German biscuits. Those guys know how to bake a biscuit!

Dunking Tim Tams without leaving crumbs behind is an art. IMO many quick dunks work better than one long dunk. Once you've over-dunked there's no going back.

Does nobody eat and dip the venerable Iced Vovo anymore? Oh, if I only had a map of Tasmania.... (sigh)... - ed

[darwinohm]

Zap, is it happy hour there yet?????????? -- Darwin

[blargfromouterspace]

I expected big things from the English Biscuit when I was in the UK but was sadly disappointed.

Me too. In their defense they do make the Digestive and its opulent variant the Chocolate Digestive, the granddaddy of the Chocolate Wheaten and infinitely superior. Hob Nobs are pretty good too.

Best biscuits come from France. Le Petit Ecolier


mmmmmmmmm

Does nobody eat and dip the venerable Iced Vovo anymore?

Absolutely. But I don't think I'm allowed to post those pictures, wink wink

[Philby]

Best biscuits come from France. Le Petit Ecolier
mmmmmmmmm

That's not a biscuit. That's a work of art!

I'd be sad to take a bite out of something like that.

Ed, I'm still an Iced VoVo man at heart, just not dipped in coffee thanks. They leave little pieces of coconut floating around.

[zapcosongs]

Darwin: It's happy hour. You are welcome anytime!

Blarg: The private message feature works for me! ;+)

Philby: Think of the coconut pieces as "dental floss." Twice daily at least!

- ed

[willross]

Just wanted to stop by and add this pic to the mix:




Cheers,

Will

[willross]

Ok, ok. I added this picture only because of the running joke: Iced Vovo. You can literally see the innuendos in this place even w/out a black-light... However, this is a real product sold in England and the States.


Cheers,

Will

[Dr B]

You can get some cream that can help you with a case of spotted dick....
eerrrr so I've heard.......