Lunch Report - Wednesday, March 23rd

[Halowords]

Brief aside . . . I live in Wisconsin, so for the first week of Spring I have a two-day Winter Storm. Sure, that's dandy for playing the Cowboys at Lambeau in December, but the last full week of March? But I digress.

Lunch: Marlin steak lightly breaded and skillet fried in olive oil, spinach salad with blue cheese crumbles, shredded cheddar, blue cheese dressing, and croutons, fresh bread lightly brushed with butter, asparagus with a bit of hollandaise sauce, and a nice pour of Aberlour a'bunadh.

Just kidding. I'm having either enchillada soup or a cold turkey sandwich in the cafeteria at work. I'll probably have some Aberlour 12 tonight though after I shovel snow, work out, entertain my daughter and get her to bed while my wife gets to go out w/ the ladies, and sit down and play some guitar to unwind for the night. Until then...

G&L Topic: ASAT/Tele Traditional Boxed Steel Bridge vs. Everything Else. For those of you who have (own[ed] or play[ed]) an ASAT or T-style with the traditional steel-box bridge and one with G&L Saddle Lock, or any other sort of non-steel-boxed bridge on a T-Style, what is the difference? Basically, what does the steel box bridge add (all else being equal, and what is the history behind it?

Alternate/Follow-up Question; Similarly, if people LOVE the traditional T-Style guitar sound (which I certainly hear a lot), how well would (or has?) it work to install the boxed steel bridge ASAT/Tele setup on other styles of guitar (either without a trem or incorporating a Trem into the design)? I am not sure if the bridge setup makes that big of a deal, or if the body dimensions between similar models are THAT far off that the mass/thickness/shape/etc. would negate any Tele/ASAT-like changes the bridge would make. To my understanding, the T-style guitar is the only one to incorporate that style of bridge & steel-enclosed pickup configuration.

Non-G&L: When is it o.k. to get annoyed with eBay?

I had guitars in mind with this, but it does not have to be exclusive to musical instruments. For this, IS it o.k. to get annoyed with eBay (or I suppose any online auction/shopping for that matter)? If so, what gets you angry about eBay & the like? Is it things like outrageous pricing, ludicrous item descriptions, less-than-revealing pictures, unrelated key words in the item's title/description, ridiculous sales pitch descriptions? I struggle with this because sellers are under no obligation to throw out deals of a lifetime for me to buy their guitars. Yet, when I see the liberties people take seemingly trying to get rich, deceive people, or even just leave it on eBay ad infinitum, it does sometimes irritate me. However, the whole point is for them to sell their stuff not make me a deal, so I wonder how founded my annoyance over how somebody chooses to sell something really is. Logically, I should not care. On a purely irrational level it can still grate on me once in a while, even if it does not keep me up at night.

-Cheers

[darwinohm]

Halowords, you are right, we are socked in by some foul weather right now. We could use some spring!

Asat/Tele bridges are a whole discussion in themselves. I think that the ASAT 6 saddle is a quality bridge. It is heavier than the Fender vintage and stamped and Chromed much better. The Fender stamped bridge is very poor quality in my opinion, the corners are rough, the Chrome plating is inferior and is probably used because that is what they used on the vintage guitar. I think the Saddle Lock bridge is a much better design and much more prefer it over the classic. I have a new American Classic Tele which I immediately installed an American Deluxe bridge on. Much better sustain, intonation and looks. I would not add a boxed steel bridge to any guitar.

I have bought a lot of things from both E-Bay and CL. The listing is only as good as the seller wants. Last night I looked at a Yamaha FG 365S that was built in 1979 and listed on our local CL. This is a Martin D-35 clone and probably the Holy Grail of old Yamahas. I am not an acoustic guy but the seller assured me that this guitar was like new. She was asking $400. Now, I would pay that for one that was pristine just to give to my daughter. When the lady brought it out, the case was beat up and missing a fair amount of the covering and I could anticipate what the guitar would look like. The top was scratched, chipped and in well used condition. The fretboard was actually worn through. She told me that someone had offered her $500 on the phone last night. I told her that I was no longer interested as it was not in collectible condition. She seemed really disappointed and I told her she should contact some of the other people who had called. I see this all the time, although I have been lucky with the guitars that I have bought on e-bay. I never have my hopes up too high when looking at guitars listed on CL as it is a setup for disappointment. I am not sure if it is a lack of honesty or people simply believe what they are telling you. -- Darwin

[sickbutnottired]

Lunch

I am contemplating getting a bucket of fried chicken to eat the rest of the week, so much for the diet.


T-Style Bridges - I am with Darwin 100%. It is interesting that he got noticeably more sustain adding the saddle lock, I would have guessed that but didn't know how much difference it would make sense the ashtray is a string through design. I find the saddle lock to be a very reliable fixed bridge, I like it a lot. I really don't like the feel of the ashtray, mostly because I haven't played it as much; but, I run into it once in a while and it can be kinda painful.

I would be interested if people think that box bridge is critical to the 'tele' sound, although that is a bit of an ambiguous thing, in my opinion.

The Bay -
I have had great luck on ebay. I have seen people re-list the same guitar for years on ebay without changing a thing. It doesn't annoy me, but I do wonder if they really want to sell. My biggest annoyance is exaggeration: "one of a kind!" "#1 of 1" "Rare" "Stunning!" "Unbelievable!" "Plays like butter!"

Oh, and people who cut and paste the entire G&L story from the G&L website or the home page here before getting to the particulars on a guitar. argh..

Edit: American Deluxe bridge on Darwins project, wrong company but same story!

[Halowords]

I would be interested if people think that box bridge is critical to the 'tele' sound, although that is a bit of an ambiguous thing, in my opinion.

Me too. I have seen people write that it was. I have seen people claim a great many things on the Internet. I tend to be a bit skeptical, although it did kind of make sense that a pickup surrounded by a big steel plate might sound different than one without whatever tonal contribution the steel might bring to the vibrations, magnetism, "mojo," etc., etc.

The Bay -
I have had great luck on ebay. I have seen people re-list the same guitar for years on ebay without changing a thing. It doesn't annoy me, but I do wonder if they really want to sell. My biggest annoyance is exaggeration: "one of a kind!" "#1 of 1" "Rare" "Stunning!" "Unbelievable!" "Plays like butter!"

I've had great luck and mostly dealt with people who were great on eBay. A few notable duds, but overall it has been fine. I find the descriptions alternately (sometimes simultaneously) annoy and amuse me. As for fun words they add, there must be some Thesaurus for eBay that lists 1,000,001 different ways to say your item is special in some way. It seems borderline insulting to the intelligence of the potential buyers to read that, but can be amusing at times. You have to admire the way they stretch the English (and probably every other) language to describe their item in terms more flowery than a Shakespearean Sonnet.

-Cheers

[sirmyghin]

I don't think the tele sound comes from the bridge, so I prefer the saddle lock bridge 100:1. It is a rock solid bridge, my only grievance with it is restrining, there is nothing to draw the string up over the saddle, you need a little hook. The old bridges were probably an ease of manufacture thing, that just set it. The tele is after all the first mass production guitar. The pickups are where its at, the steel plate bridge won't change how a pickup sounds. The ASAT special pickups are still better tele pickups anyway (unbiased opinion).

To be fair, I think you can only get angry 'at ebay' when people are dishonest or give false information (this goes for tags and poor photos to disguise stuff). Pricing is up to the buyer, it is his, he can ask whatever he wants, it is not up to us to tell him what he wants. Sames goes for items on the block a long time. It doesn't (shouldn't) affect you in any way. The rare tags I see far too often, dealing in mostly 'made to order instruments' (every carvin is pretty much, nothing special to advertise...), my G&L was made to order too. Cut and paste descriptions also make me pass stuff up, generally. If you can't be bothered to try and sell the item, why should I be bothered to buy it? I like a straight up description, the specs, and lots of pictures.

[Halowords]

I don't think the tele sound comes from the bridge, so I prefer the saddle lock bridge 100:1. It is a rock solid bridge, my only grievance with it is restrining, there is nothing to draw the string up over the saddle, you need a little hook. The old bridges were probably an ease of manufacture thing, that just set it. The tele is after all the first mass production guitar. The pickups are where its at, the steel plate bridge won't change how a pickup sounds. The ASAT special pickups are still better tele pickups anyway (unbiased opinion).

That's good to know. I had read that "The Tele Sound" came from the shape, the solid-wood/non-trem bridge (so no routing), the fatter-than-a-Strat bridge pickup, and the square-metal-ashtray-looking-thing that is used for the bridge. Granted, that can at least partially be contributed to Internet lore, and I can't say with any authority that the steel-box bridge changes the tone or not. I AM glad to hear the saddle lock bridge works great. I have not had a Tele in a long while and never had any issues with this, but the box-bridge just looks pointy and uncomfortable. I sure do like the smooth, round goodness of my Heritage stoptail pieces. So to me, the Saddle Lock Bridge looks a bit more inviting (although no bridge has ever caused me to think twice about it, so maybe aesthetics are a bit at play here for me).

-Cheers

[sickbutnottired]

I don't think the tele sound comes from the bridge, so I prefer the saddle lock bridge 100:1. It is a rock solid bridge, my only grievance with it is restrining, there is nothing to draw the string up over the saddle, you need a little hook.

Right on about restringing! It is so much easier on my old string through f-100. I bend the first 4 cm or so of the string about 20 degrees, and that helps some....

[Halowords]

Lunch Update: I passed on the Enchilada Soup and instead had the Build Your Own Nachos tray. It was not terribly unhealthy. There were the chips, but I had chicken, minimal beans, lots of lettuce, some tomatoes, lots of olives, jalapeno peppers, salsa, restrained on the sour cream. It looked more like a salad than anything else, and tasted fine & lettucey.

Not quite my fantasy lunch, but what can you do?

-Cheers

[sickbutnottired]

One more thought on twang, then I MUST get back to work. Some guitars with identical designs seem to me to 'twang' more easily than others. I was playing with a friend, let's just say he plays a little, a couple weeks back, and we where rocking through long haired country boy, other country favorites and having a few. He said that my ASAT Classic didn't sound very country...

Well that was kinda true,temporarily, for a few reasons...

(1) he was playing through my practice pig nose amp. Very cool little amp for the money, all tube, but he didn't adjust the amp at all...and I had it set for playing my ASAT Deluxe and getting maximum cream out of it.

(2) He didn't mess with tone on the guitar at all. Make sure you're not cuttin' more of the high-end than you want off the signal my man!

(3) He picks too damn far away from the bridge if he really wants bite...

I guess I am saying this...you need to turn some knobs and experiment (strings matter a lot they are less than $10 try some!) a little before making grand pronouncements about a guitar or type of guitar. And it is even harder for us regular players generalize what matters because we don't generally have the time, equipment or expertise to do rigorous testing.

And if that's not hard enough, technique matters, so a setup that works great for me, will not work as great for somebody else...And I have heard great twang from ASAT Specials, in fact the guy that got me into G&L beyond my f-100 only played a special, and he had great twang when he wanted it.

This is a great question, and it's fun to hear about others experiences getting things right.

[blargfromouterspace]

He said that my ASAT Classic didn't sound very country...

This is a common misconception. When you look at the ingredients of a Classic it's a tele made with good quality parts.


Bridges: I like the traditional boxed steel bridge. It's my favourite out of all the ones I've tried. I couldn't tell you what it adds - feedback maybe According to a lot of people they do add a certain something to the twang. I only have about 10mins playing time on an ASAT Special or any other guitar with the saddle-lock bridge and that thing was very nice. I really like the feel of it. I can't stand Tune-o-matics anymore - they're too sharp - or even wraparound bridges.


Ebay: You just gotta be careful you don't get stung. People should be honest but we all know that that isn't how the world works. I sell stuff online that I don't like, I don't say why. I let them make up their own mind. I don't buy anything where people don't answer questions or provide additional photos. I recently made an offer on a refinished SC2 which I thought was fair and got a ridiculous counter offer back. You can't blame a guy for trying, you just have to realise when you're being had!


Truly great questions this week, Halo. My responses are getting a bit long!

[Boogie Bill]

I think the box bridge does add to the Tele sound, but face it...it's really just a cheap way to make a functional bridge for a solid guitar. Really, it's just a really cheap inelegant POS--but man, Leo really put the MOJO in it! LOL! I'm not a big fan of the original pieces; they can contribute to feedback problems. Modern versions, like the Vintique helped this; and the flat "plate" ones wont cut your hand--but it is the Saddle-Lock that is the ultimate non-vibrato bridge.

The Saddle-Lock clearly came from the design of the Music Man StingRay and Sabre. The think I like about the Sabre bridge is the use of the "barrel" saddles--I've always thought that to be one fine piece of engineering.

I've been pretty lucky (knock on wood!) with E-Bay, though I have bought a couple of mildly disappointing guitars, I've not been the victim of an out-and-out fraud. The listings are what they are--come ons, and misinformation--hey, welcome to the world of marketing. People have been swindled by con men and misleading advertising since--well, forever. Fortunately, God told Noah to load ANIMALS on the Ark--otherwise he probably woulda had a boatload of items "AS SEEN ON TV!"

So, I don't let the little stuff bother me...if I can help it. Ebay, the company, does a pretty good job, for most people. The rest of it is just people being people--the stupid animals that they are (and the one species that probably SHOULD have been left off the Ark!) My solution is what I call, "doing my homework". I do the research, read the reviews, investigate the sellers, etc,...my "due diligence", whether it is a retail sale or an E-bay auction. I'm much more likely to have a satisfying experience when I do my "homework" before I buy. It can be tedious, I've lost lost some good deals; but I have saved myself some real heartache, too.

Bill

[zapcosongs]

What Bill said.

- ed

(I'll add that the traditional tele bridge tends to get in the way of my playing (which is crappy and sloppy, btw).

[blargfromouterspace]

What Bill said.

- ed

(I'll add that the traditional tele bridge tends to get in the way of my playing (which is crappy and sloppy, btw).

I always look forward to your posts, Ed, they make me laugh. No exception today

[cmguitar]

G&L Question: I am a Stratahollic Like yesterday sound like a Tele feel like a Strat.
I like the bridge on the ASAT Special and ASAT III. I get TWANG, easy to adjust and I get enough sustain to do the Job.

EBay Question: I won't buy a guitar unless I try it first. So I got better things to do than search EBay.

Chet

[sam]

ASAT/Tele bridges...now that is a debate that could go on for quite a while, and some fine responses above. Of my ASAT/ Fender Tele's 3 have saddle lock (ASAT, ASAT Deluxe, Z3) 1 ASAT Classic bridge, 1 Tone Guard ASAT classic black crinkle with Glendale brass saddles (parts JD-5), 1 ASAT Jr with stop bar and 2 standard fenders ('62 re-issues).

IMHO the classic traditional boxed steel bridge must have something going for it as so many players have used and still use them, myself included. If you have a box bridge I found that adding brass saddles do add more twang and crisp tone to that bridge design. An ashtray cover can give some palm comfort as well. There is some snappy twang to be found in that bridge design.
BUT...the saddle lock is every bit as stable probably moreso than the box design, and adds some sustain that you don't get from a traditional box bridge. As Bill said, "One fine piece of engieering", indeed! I would like to hear an ASAT Classic with the small MFD's and a saddle lock bridge to compare with the standard ASAT Classic. You notice there are no options with this combination in all ASAT's. hint-hint Darth

Try 'em all and you will find your tone!

Ebay has been pretty good to me, only one deal gone bad. A 70's Vibro Champ advertised as mint and arrived with a cracked cabinet. Fortunately the seller agreed to take it back and I eventually got one in very good condition. As far as how some usres list items now there is where complaints come in. Good suggestions in your poll btw.

[SouthpawGuy]

G&L Topic: ASAT/Tele Traditional Boxed Steel Bridge vs. Everything Else

I prefer the traditional boxed steel bridge to that on an American Std Tele, in theory the lack of sides to the ashtray makes it easier to palm mute strings and pick closer to the saddles but the older style just feels better to me. I prefer six individual saddles for ease of intonation. I also like the saddle lock bridge, the extra sustain is noticeable.

Non-G&L: When is it o.k. to get annoyed with eBay?

Inaccurate descriptions are annoying, lack of pictures is another ( or just awful pictures taken in complete darkness). As a lefty player the usual "rare" "vintage" "jimi" gets to be a pain, virtually every other strat style guitar for sale has a "jimi" reference in the listing.

Entirely gratuitous pic of a saddle lock bridge with a guitar attached



and another of a traditional boxed steel bridge with a guitar conveniently attached.



both guitars are red by the way.


Darwin

[astutzmann]

wow, nuff said