What Is In The Furure For Products

[darwinohm]

My favorite pastime it hitting guitar shops and we have some great ones in the Twin Cities. I have spent time at a couple of the finest here, one being today in St. Paul where I almost fell victim to and 3 Bolt 4 string pristine ASAT Bass. If it were a 5 string it would be here tonight. Anyway as some of you know, my Bogner Alchemist is down the road. One of the high end shop owners commented on the Alchemist and said it is "junk" from China. I would not argue that. He has also carried VOX for some years and is thinking of dropping them. More junk from China he says. Now I would bet that the PC board in my Fender Twin Reverb Custom 15 is made in China or somewhere overseas. I found out that Celestions have been manufactured in China for several years. I checked the Celestions in my Cyber Twin SE. and they are from England. Now I feel better. I had a major problem with my Fender Custom 15 and fixed it myself instead of warranty. I hard wired in a new circuit like they did in the old days. Fender would have replaced the circuit board and I could have had the same problem again. At least the circuit that I wired in will not fail again. I plugged the Celestions in the Bogner into my Custom 15 Fender and they were awesome so it was not speakers. It was the electronics. The shop in St Paul made similar comments about China amps. They sell Bogner Custom Shop Amps and will sell nothing else from Bogner or line 6. This is the same shop that told me a few years ago that the lowest Fender they would take in trade was Fenders from Japan. No Mexican, China or Korean Fenders. Today they are selling Road Worn Fenders. The local GC carries PRS SEs and I have not tried one but they look very nice. Same for Music Man. I am not on a rant but what do you guys think about this.
I know that G&L sells Tributes to remain competitive and I have one. It is really a decent guitar. So where is the future taking us in this global economy??? I am not buying any more amps but I will fall victim to more guitars. Darwin

[cmguitar]

Darwin,
I know what you mean.
I got 3 amps my old 60s Baldwin C1,it was built in Fayetteville Arkansas,
A 1976 Peavey Musician head built in Meridian Miss.and a Epiphone Valve Junior cab & head Made in China.(Its the last Gibson instrument I will by too) No more amps for me either.
As far as guitars go I know G&L's are American. I have a Corona Strat It I was at least assembled in America. My Gibson J50 was built in Kalamazoo Michigan.
I own 4 Asian built guitars too. Except for a Takamine my wife bought me all were built in the 80s. So the economic impact had already taken place.
I am at the point now I look for where they are built before I buy.
With the economic conditions I have decided to buy only American now or not at all.
You are right G&L has to have the Tributes to stay competitive. Just like PRS with the SE series. I tried a older Santana SE, good guitar,but its not the same as a USA PRS.
You need to check out the PRS amp line built in Maryland designed by Doug Sewell of Sewell Amps. Down here Sewell amps are the North Texas holy grail of amps. The PRS amps are just as good but you pay the price. More than I want to spend.

Off topic: I heard a noise last night on my front porch. I opened the door there was a huge possum staring right at me. I tried to get the camera but he ran off.

Chet

[Philby]

Hi Darwin,

I think the guys in that shop are being gear snobs in the extreme. Sure, there is good and bad gear out there but implying that you can label gear as or based on where it was made is plain ignorant. I've had good and bad stuff from Asia and good and bad stuff from the USA. Often, many components of USA made gear is sourced from Asia, so the 'country of origin' argument is blurry at best.

As for globalisation, I don't like it, but I think it is here to stay. At least until western governments wise up that getting everything made in China is an issue of national security. Once we lose expertise in making key products locally then the Chinese have us by the goolies. The cheap prices we pay for Chinese made stuff is partly subsidised by slave wages, poor working conditions, poor health and environmental standards, and a totalitarian government manipulating the exchange rate. The Chinese are also guilty of product dumping to put local competition out of business. Once they figure out how to do R&D and develop their own intellectual property they won't need to be so accommodating with western companies, or they'll buy them out, and we'll really be in trouble.

But the quality of Chinese stuff is undoubtedly improving. My last purchase was a Vox AC15C1, made in China, designed in the UK. It is a great amp. Sounds much better than my Fender Blues Junior, and I've yet to see a poor review of the Vox anywhere. Will it still be working 16 years later like the Fender? Who knows? But underneath it appears to be constructed in exactly the same way i.e. with decent looking PCB boards, decent quality transformer, Celestion Green speaker etc. I'm also very impressed by the Squier Classic Vibe teles and strats that come out of China. The Indonesian Tribbies are great guitars too. I'm happy to judge gear on its merits and not be too fazed by what some high end gear dude reckons. It's what you can get out of the gear that counts IMHO. Otherwise it's just a peeing contest.

[blargfromouterspace]

It is interesting, all this manufacturing happening in China, Indonesia etc. I checked out a couple of Chinese and Korean built guitars today on my way into uni - an Epiphone, a Vox and a Gretsch Electromatic. They were all nicely finished and played well. I'm currently looking for a cheap project guitar and will most likely be buying a Gretsch Junior Jet in the next few weeks to mess with. It's my opinion that the gap in quality is closing every day. I have no doubt in my mind that the Chinese are capable of building guitars as good as the major American companies. Sooner or later the wage gap will become smaller too, much like it did with Japan, and look at the guitars they're making now - beauties!!!!


My main amp, a ZT Club was built in China and while it was exceedingly cheap, is a fantastic sounding amp which comes with me to all my gigs as my main amp. So far it has done about 10 gigs with me and has had no problems at all. Thenext most recent amp I bought was a Marshall Vintage Modern which was made in England. Out of the three months I had it, it spent six weeks in the repair shop. Every time I'd get it back something would go wrong with it. I got rid of it at a significant loss.


While I can appreciate the instruments coming out of 'far Eastern' locations I do not have GAS for them as much as I do their more expensive counterparts. Though I must admit, my opinion is changing every time I play something new from that part of the world....

[cmguitar]

Guys,
I think the new MIJ Gretsch are great guitars But I don't have GAS for it.
With the political environment in the United States right now I don't feel right buying anything but American guitars right now. Anything to help keep people working.
I own a Tokai and a Fernandes LE 1 that I would put up against ANY Strat.
I have a friend in Northern Ireland that makes some of the best pickups on the planet.IMO.
I wouldn't call it being a guitar snob I am looking at it more in a political perspective. (political is word I did not want to bring up).
FYI the other forum I frequent at all is Japanaxe.
If I was in Australia or the UK or where ever I would be saying the same thing.
I have seen lately as many MIC Epiphones built as well as not better than USA Gibson counterparts. But I won't buy Gibson products for any reason anymore

Chet

[darwinohm]

Thanks for you thoughts guys. I also think that these store owners make strong statements. The famous store in St. Paul is now stocking road worn Fenders. I have wanted a VOX ac15 for some time and keep hearing negative reports but not from the people who own them. I saw one the other day, a tweed model with the blue in it and was tempted. I do want a reverb in it and this particular model does not have the reverb. II frequently see the AC30 CC2 for sale on Craigs List and I have often wondered why people are selling them. I know that they are heavy. My two Gretsches are built in Japan and the build quality is outstanding. One thing I will say is that the high end guitars that I own tend to have perfect necks and fretwork. Some are plecked and some are not. I believe that Fender does not plek their necks and I have yet to get a bad neck from them on an American model. Anyway, I believe that I am set for amps. Thanks for your thoughts.-- Darwin

[Philby]

II frequently see the AC30 CC2 for sale on Craigs List and I have often wondered why people are selling them.

Darwin, the Vox range was updated last year and the new AC15 and AC30 are much better sounding, better designed amps, with better speakers (Celestions). A lot of the previous models are hitting E-Bay and Craigs List as people off load them to buy the later model. The old model also suffered problems with a poorly designed tube rectifier circuit which has been corrected in the new range.

[darwinohm]

Good information Philby, I have wanted a Vox for some time. If I decide to get one in the future I will make sure it is a recent build. Thanks again-- Darwin.

[GDub]

@Darwin. Unfortunately, there's no rational answer to the manufacturing issue. I'd love to only buy only US or Canadian made gear (because I'm a dual citizen), but that just isn't a viable option for most of us these days. Alas.

--GDub

[offplanetfilms]

I forked out for a new China made Vox AC15 last year. Fantastic amp, even with the China version Celeston blue speaker. (The older AC15cc1x version.) The thing really loves Legacy's, lemie tell you! Fantastic cleans with plenty of headroom, and a very nice smooth distortion when cranked. (Vox's really do sing sweetest with a Blue speaker IMO.) The top boost circuit can get a little clashy with OD pedals, but if you tweak the tone controls, you'll find a sweet spot. I really can't fault my China Vox really for the price.

[sickbutnottired]

Good question Darwin. It's great to get views from people of all over.

I think that it is important to keep in mind why manufacturing is being off-shored. It's just a cost cutting measure. So when they move production and tool a new factory and train new people it is a good opportunity for companies to cut other costs as well. There has been a lot of design changes and changes as far as sourcing components materials, etc--that occur as part of the transition. So it is often more than just the manufacturing that changes when we see a country of origin change.

As a consumer, you can't just rely on manufacturing country or price to find a quality instrument. You can easily go to a GC and buy a 3K USD guitar that needs significant setup before it is playable and has some cosmetic defects. Thanks for that Gibson! At the same time, it does seem to me that the quality of a lot musical products--and especially amps--has really deteriorated as the manufacturing has moved to China. I think this reflects the companies commitment to quality--not just the manufacturer. It also reflects what I think the music business basically is right now: a price battle in the pages of Musicians Friend and online. I mean printed circuit boards are a superior technology to hand wired stuff in most cases, but apparently a lot of manufactures are cutting too many cost corners...So I'll stick with my old hand wired stuff.

Buying guitars and amps is much different for me than anything else I buy. First, it's a luxury. And second, for me it's a totally emotional 'sale'. So I want USA guitars made in the USA, Australian Guitars made in Australia, Mexican guitars made in Mexico, etc. The crafts-people are part of the story to me. I want to continue the story, play as best I can and take care of the instrument so that someday some else can play it as well as they can...

[yowhatsshakin]

Just adding my 2¢. Certain things are off-shored and become successful. Instead of waiting some foreign company to 'copy' your stuff (think Japan in the '70) and eat your cake, you try to stay ahead of the curve and establish a manufacturing plant yourself. That is the way to stay in control of the game. But there will be growing pains. What I read about non-domestically produced Vox amplifiers is such an example. But as pointed out above, even domestic manufacturing is by no means a guarantee for quality!

However, I do know of at least one area where outsourcing and/or foreign production does not seem to work that well: software. Mind you, the problem is not necessarily that overseas developers are hacks; I know plenty domestic hacks for that matter. The problem seems to be that the design and architecture are still done state side, in house, and the production of code is outsourced. Unfortunately, given that this adheres to a traditional waterfall approach of software development, this is usually disastrous due to feedback channels impeded by geography and time zones. Quite a few companies have pulled back their efforts to outsource code development, due to disappointing with the quality of the produced product, and again not necessarily due to incompetence of overseas contributors.

Why is this not a problem for manufacturing? First, particularly in software development, you need to be responsible for your product end to end. The story would be completely different if design and architecture would be deferred to the overseas shops too. Second, I think that in manufacturing a blue print is truly a blue print and the delivered product is complete and what the customer desires. And just like the evolution for Japanese manufacturing starting end of the '60 and throughout the '70's, they will get better and better and may pretty soon come with their own creations that are gonna be impressive in terms of quality/price ratio.

- Jos

[KennyE]

I've been in that "no offshore instruments" mind. Thought I'd never buy another amp or guitar that wasn't made in North America. (I say that to include Canada). But! (always a butt!), I just brought home an Eastman AC322CE acoustic guitar. And I couldn't be more thrilled with it. Is it a Taylor or Larrivee? No, but it's darned close. And not built in a Chinese sweat shop. Hand built in small numbers. Not sure that makes it any better for buying offshore. But, it did help the Mom&Pop shop where I bought it.

I also have an older Chinese AC30CC1. And I love that amp. Heavy as all get out, so it stays at home. But it's a great amp. Again, not built in a sweat shop. If that makes a difference. I also have a Mesa Lone Star that is too heavy to take out. And it's been plagued with all sorts of electrical problems. My Dr. Z, however, has been rock steady. My hand built in America 5F4 had to be rewired after getting it. But my 5E3 has been stable as all get out. I'm not convinced that the country of origin has that much to do with the quality, as much as the business acumen and professionalism of the company producing the items does.